Somali connection to Madagascar?

[Merchant of Mogadishu]

Did Somalis go to Mozambique to mine gold there? I think I've heard of that before.

 

[Lord Flacko]

They ain't the real deal basically. At some point in history, probably ancient, Hap T Somalis assimilated into the Cushitic ethnic group that preceded Somalis.

We Wuz Robbed Of Our 'Caucasian' Ancestry by our ancestors heading South to Africa.

lol no

 

[Lord Flacko]

Did Somalis go to Mozambique to mine gold there? I think I've heard of that before.

Sofala.

 

[anonimo]

Sofala.

Jokes aside.

Like the Arabs and Persians that settled on the Swahili coast and Southern Somalia, Madagascans that are T and J haplogroup are believed to be descendants of Middle Eastern migrants that established trading posts in coastal areas.

 

[Grant]

Jokes aside.

Like the Arabs and Persians that settled on the Swahili coast and Southern Somalia, Madagascans that are T and J haplogroup are believed to be descendants of Middle Eastern migrants that established trading posts in coastal areas.

This encyclopedia entry says flat out that the Antaimoro are of Arabic descent:

https://www.britannica.com/topic/Antaimoro

I suppose they could have been Arabs coming from Mog, but they could not have been Samaales with no E in the mix. I have to wonder how representative of the coastal trading peoples this group is, with so little "E"? And how do they relate to the "clients of the Ajuraan city states" that joined the Ottomans in fighting the Portuquese?

 

[Lord Flacko]

This encyclopedia entry says flat out that the Antaimoro are of Arabic descent:

https://www.britannica.com/topic/Antaimoro

I suppose they could have been Arabs coming from Mog, but they could not have been Samaales with no E in the mix. I have to wonder how representative of the coastal trading peoples this group is, with so little "E"? And how do they relate to the "clients of the Ajuraan city states" that joined the Ottomans in fighting the Portuquese?

Nobody said they were from Mogadishu.

 

[Von]

Later on we should buy some islands down there but first Socotra island and those in and near the red sea

 

[Huur]

Got anymore info about this @SultanuuFicaan @Garad @Huur?

Good find,

I haven't heard of any Somali connections with Madagascar before this, other than the name "Madagascar" possibly being derived from Mogadishu.

Nevertheless, here's some info I've recently found that somewhat delves into this topic...


The Cambridge History of Africa, Volume 3:
(Chapter 3: The East Coast, Madagascar, and the Indian Ocean)
[Link]

"MADAGASCAR
The island which the Arabs call al-Qumr has become known as Madagascar as the result of a corruption of the name Mogadishu, which Marco Polo understood to be a large island. Madagascar is considered by its inhabitants as wholly distinct from the continent, and its history reflects this distinction though there are certain African connections."

p.g. 219

Comment has already been made on Ibn al-Mujawir's remark about the voyage from Aden to al-Qumr with stages at Mogadishu and Kilwa. He goes on to say that a ship from al-Qumr sailed to Aden in a single voyage in 1228/9; it had intended to stop at Kilwa but reached Aden in error. He also indicates that the boats of the people of al-Qumr had outriggers, and tells us of a tradition he had heard in Arabia that people of al-Qumr at an earlier date had attacked and expelled the fishermen inhabitants of Aden. There they settled, erecting buildings on the mountains. The invaders, however, died out and there were no more migrations. This voyage too is said to have been carried out in one stage, or monsoon (mawsim). When it is supposed to have taken place is not clear, but it appears to have been long before the writer's time. The story sounds improbable as it stands, but indicates that voyages were made from Madagascar at an early date.

p.g. 220-221

Turning now to the question of trade with the lands of the north, a find of 'Sasanian-Islamic' pottery in the region of Irodo on the northeastern coast indicates that there was some slight trading contact with such places as Qanbalii and Manda in the ninth and tenth centuries. Finds of sgraffiato pottery on both the north-west and north-east coasts indicate that such trading continued, probably on a rather greater (but still minor) scale, during the following two or three centuries. Ibn al-Mujawir's reference to the trade route from Aden via Mogadishu and Kilwa to al-Qumr has already been mentioned.

These finds of imported Islamic goods cannot be said to be evidence of any weight that there were Muslims (East African or Arab) settled at the places concerned; it is noteworthy that Ibn al-Mujawir in his accounts of the voyages of the people of al-Qumr to Aden gives no indication that they were, or included, Muslims.

p.g. 223-224

The earliest Muslim settlements in this southern region appear to have been in the Comoro islands.1 The Kilwa legend of the coming of the' Shirazi' tells us that one of the seven ships (interestingly, that of the father, supposedly the sultan of Shiraz) sailed to Anjouan in the Comoro islands, the party settling there. A similar legend is also remembered in the islands themselves and on the north-western coast of Madagascar. If this immigration is in fact roughly contemporary with the Islamic settlement at Kilwa, we should assign a date around the turn of the twelfth-thirteenth century and connect it also with Mogadishu and the Benadir coast.

p.g. 224

On the island of Madagascar itself the earliest Muslim settlements were probably on the north-west coast. In this region the Portuguese at the beginning of the sixteenth century found a number of flourishing towns, each under its own shaykh, which were trading with Mombasa and Malindi; a later record of 1617 tells of vessels from Lamu and Pate at the most important of the towns, Nosy Manja. The people of these towns were known as Antalaotra, and probably derive from the people of the same name in the Comoro islands. While, on the archaeological evidence, at least one of these towns was trading with the north as early as the thirteenth century, we cannot be sure that they were Muslim before the fifteenth century, and have only the testimony of the Portuguese that the Muslims had been long established when they arrived.

p.g. 225

On the north-eastern coast there were other towns which were at least linked with Islam; of these the most important was at the modern Vohe'mar. Excavation of graves at this place, known anciently as Iharana, has brought to light a rich collection of grave-goods, with imported pottery, much of it Chinese, glass beads and vessels, bronze mirrors, etc. The most characteristic objects are vessels made from chlorite-schist, most of them with three legs. Similar vessels have been found at Kilwa and attest trade with that region...Though only meagre remains of masonry now are to be found at the site of Iharana, the people are known to have constructed permanent buildings, two having been recorded in the eighteenth century. It seems that these places were not settled before the fifteenth or possibly the later fourteenth century; the date originally ascribed to these graves by the excavators can now be shown to be much too early. On the evidence of imported Chinese porcelain, the settlements continued to exist for some three centuries.

p.g. 225

Little is known of the origin of the Iharanians, though traditions, particularly of a people living at the present day north of Vohe'mar, suggest that some of their ancestors came from the Comoros and the East African coast. It appears that certain of the Iharanians migrated southwards along the coast. This is probably the origin of two remarkable groups of people who live in the south-eastern part of the island, and are known as the Zafi-Raminia and the Anteimoro... If they in fact derive from Iharana, the movement southwards must have occurred early in the development of that place. In any case, an origin involving foreign elements from northern Madagascar, the Comoros, and ultimately from the East African coast is probable.


p.g. 225-226

Hopefully the link above helps you out, because I don't know much about the history of Madagascar.

 

[Lord Flacko]

More on Somalis and islands

View attachment 27934


View attachment 27935

^Sofala + Somali domination of the Indian Ocean

View attachment 27936

Like @Prince Abubu showed, the Antemoro carry this T haplogroup View attachment 27937

And historical documents have scholars saying the Antemoro have/had a name that indicated they came from the Harar region and were Sumale/Somali.
View attachment 27938

@Rooble have you heard of the Semur/Temur/Temuru before?


Edit ; Enrico Cerulli seemed to believe Semur was an old Harari name for Somali that later morphed into Temur

 

[Xooshdheere]

View attachment 27929

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id...UAhXD2BoKHSAeB1sQ6AEIHzAA#v=onepage&q&f=false



http://www.afran.info/modules/publisher/item.php?itemid=315


Got anymore info about this @SultanuuFicaan @Garad @Huur?

Why did you not tag me?! I am the best historian/scholar

 

[Grant]

Nobody said they were from Mogadishu.

I believe you were quoting Ibn Batuta, which would have been 1325-1332, well before the Ajuraan took control of Mog. The Governor of the Maldives was 'Abd al 'Aziz Almakdachaouy, which has been interpreted as Mogadishu and used as an example of Somali presence, just as the Arabs in Madagascar were said to have come from Somalia..

 

[Lord Flacko]

I believe you were quoting Ibn Batuta, which would have been 1325-1332, well before the Ajuraan took control of Mog. The Governor of the Maldives was 'Abd al 'Aziz Almakdachaouy, which has been interpreted as Mogadishu and used as an example of Somali presence, just as the Arabs in Madagascar were said to have come from Somalia..

What does the Ajuraan Sultanate have to do with this? Ibn Battuta himself went to Mogadishu where he met a Somali Sultan, aswell as meeting another Somali student (Saeed) on one of his journey who was from Mogadishu aswell.

And I qouted you about the Antemoro, who live in Madagascar, not the Maldives. The Antemoro were said to have been Somalis from around Harar, which is corroborated by the fact that they call themselves Semur which at the time of their arrival was a name for the Somalis that was written alongside the first mention of the Somali name itself by an Ethiopian Emperor/King. The Antemoro also carry the dominant Somali T haplogroup from the same area.

 

[Grant]

What does the Ajuraan Sultanate have to do with this? Ibn Battuta himself went to Mogadishu where he met a Somali Sultan, aswell as meeting another Somali student (Saeed) on one of his journey who was from Mogadishu aswell.

And I qouted you about the Antemoro, who live in Madagascar, not the Maldives. The Antemoro were said to have been Somalis from around Harar, which is corroborated by the fact that they call themselves Semur which at the time of their arrival was a name for the Somalis that was written alongside the first mention of the Somali name itself by an Ethiopian Emperor/King. The Antemoro also carry the dominant Somali T haplogroup from the same area.

Excluding the Imam's line of Saint Balad, the Ajuraan Sultanate was Samaale. The Sultanate of Mogadishu started out Persian, became Himyarite, and had a republican phase under a group of mostly Arab clans before coming under Ajuraan control well after Ibn Batuta's time in the 15th century.
Abu Bakr ibn Sayx 'Umar, sultan in Ibn Batuta's time, was from Berbera, which does not necessarily make him a Samaale. In 1331 the northern clans had barely formed.

Going by both the historic and DNA evidence, the Antemoro are of Arabic descent. Six of the Arab clans are known. Look them up independent of the old conjectures.

 

[Bahal]

Common misconception, he was not from Berbera but rather of the "Berber" race.

 

[Bahal]

 

[Bahal]

If I know Grant, he'll claim Ibn Battuta meant the Sultan was Kabyle

 

[Grant]

If I know Grant, he'll claim Ibn Battuta meant the Sultan was Kabyle

No. I just think it's time for the encyclopedias to catch up to old mistakes. This isn't the first error in the pile. And it's not just Wiki with the problem. At least with Wiki there is a quick fix. Britannica and other print versions last practically forever. Once it gets to Revolvy it's like it's in stone.....

 

[Apollo]

Little known fact, Madagascar was named after Mogadishu after Marco Polo confused the two

Dat cultural appropriation, we should request Madagascar to change its name.

 

[Lord Flacko]

Excluding the Imam's line of Saint Balad, the Ajuraan Sultanate was Samaale. The Sultanate of Mogadishu started out Persian, became Himyarite, and had a republican phase under a group of mostly Arab clans before coming under Ajuraan control well after Ibn Batuta's time in the 15th century.
Abu Bakr ibn Sayx 'Umar, sultan in Ibn Batuta's time, was from Berbera, which does not necessarily make him a Samaale. In 1331 the northern clans had barely formed.

Going by both the historic and DNA evidence, the Antemoro are of Arabic descent. Six of the Arab clans are known. Look them up independent of the old conjectures.

This is wrong though. Ibn Battuta mentions the Sultan to one who has darker skin and speaks both Arabic and his native tongue Mogadishan (Somali)

(rest of the page is missing but you can deduce what comes next based on context and other sources.)

And here's from when Ibn Battuta met a Somali from Mogadishu on a journey to Asia.

And the Sultan was from Bilad Al Berber, aka the Somali Peninsula, not Berbera.


And I have already shown both

Spoiler: historical (+a scholarly opinion based on evidence)

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and

Spoiler: genetic

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evidence which points to the Antemoro more than likely being of Somali descent.[/SPOILER]

 

[Xooshdheere]

Dat cultural appropriation, we should request Madagascar to change its name.

muh cultural appropriation1