Sa'id of Mogadishu

[Khaem]

Saying he was reer samaale is rewriting history what's known is that he's a xamari, and it's also known at the time that there weren't any reer samaale xamaris as they settled in the city after.

Those native Arabs, Persians and Desi's were majority up until colonization

Merchants were native Arab or persian banadiris

Are you stupid? Ibn Battuta literally stated in the same book that the people of Mogadishu were black skinned Berbers and spoke their own language. He wrote that everyone between zelia and Mogadishu were of the same stock, Berber. Idiot keep coping though.

Mogadishu is Somali, always has and will be. The minorities like you are a product of Somali enterprise. As the Persians and Arab and Indians came to the Somali city to trade, intermarriage and out came the Benadiri. You are nothing more than that. Not at all distinct from somali let alone arabs.

 

[Banadiri Warrior]

Are you stupid? Ibn Battuta literally stated in the same book that the people of Mogadishu were black skinned Berbers and spoke their own language. He wrote that everyone between zelia and Mogadishu were of the same stock, Berber. Idiot keep coping though.

Mogadishu is Somali, always has and will be. The minorities like you are a product of Somali enterprise. As the Persians and Arab and Indians came to the Somali city to trade, intermarriage and out came the Benadiri. You are nothing more than that. Not at all distinct from somali let alone arabs.

Barbar doesn't refer to an ethnic group, all your doubts can be answered by asking yourself why aren't there any gibil madow reer xamars of samaale origin wether hawiye or garre or cawrmale that claim to have been in xamar for that long? Did those so called Somalis become extinct or what?, Ask yourself also why there aren't any ancient masjids or gravestites of Reer Samaale's ?

 

[ibrahym]

Barbar doesn't refer to an ethnic group, all your doubts can be answered by asking yourself why aren't there any gibil madow reer xamars of samaale origin wether hawiye or garre or cawrmale that claim to have been in xamar for that long? Did those so called Somalis become extinct or what?, Ask yourself also why there aren't any ancient masjids or gravestites of Reer Samaale's ?

You are a delusional person

 

[Zak12]

I always found it funny how people still claim that the coastline and major urban centers like Mogadishu and Zeila was full of Arabs and ruled by them when contemporary writings from Ibn Battuta and others have consistently stated that Somalis were both the majority population and the elites. This forced attribution of Somali history to foreign actors is literally just a carry over from the past when colonial era scholars like Cerulli believed that Arabs did everything in Somalia and Somalis were only nomads. Credible scholars later on like Cassanelli or Njoku don't believe in such obvious BS.

 

[Banadiri Warrior]

View attachment 299430You are a delusional person

That's not evidence

 

[Banadiri Warrior]

I always found it funny how people still claim that the coastline and major urban centers like Mogadishu and Zeila was full of Arabs and ruled by them when contemporary writings from Ibn Battuta and others have consistently stated that Somalis were both the majority population and the elites. This forced attribution of Somali history to foreign actors is literally just a carry over from the past when colonial era scholars like Cerulli believed that Arabs did everything in Somalia and Somalis were only nomads. Credible scholars later on like Cassanelli or Njoku don't believe in such obvious BS.

They weren't 100% Arabs nobody claimed that, there were also Persians, jàreers and reer samaale's which were minority in muqdisho the bulk of them count no more than 15 generations till their ancestor that came to the coast, in marka they all came post 1600s, in barawa they had their own settlements adjacent to stone settlements of Arabs and Persians. There's no evidence of any reer samaale ruling dynasty in banaadir during ibn battuta's era

 

[Zak12]

They weren't 100% Arabs nobody claimed that, there were also Persians, jàreers and reer samaale's which were minority in muqdisho the bulk of them count no more than 15 generations till their ancestor that came to the coast, in marka they all came post 1600s, in barawa they had their own settlements adjacent to stone settlements of Arabs and Persians. There's no evidence of any reer samaale ruling dynasty in banaadir during ibn battuta's era

You are delusional then. The only physical description we have of a Mogdishan sultan is by Ibn Battuta who very clearly stated he was a dark skinned Barbar. Merca was also stated to be ruled by the Hawiye. There is zero evidence of a Arab or Persian ruling class in the Benadir coast.

 

[The alchemist]

The reason why the buildings are arab or persian is that somalis hired arabs to build those houses, look at zeila or hafun for example we all know that the people that live there are somalis but the all of the buildings are arab because culturally somali men dont build houses it was the women that did it and since building stone houses is hard for women they would just hire arabs to do it for them, it's that simple

Buildings were constructed all along Somaliland into the region beyond the borders of Ethiopia, and in Somalia. Women put together guris, the mobile huts from materials carried by camels, but stone constructions were made by men; Somali men.

It is true that the coastal architecture in Zaila mosque was different from those of the rest of the historical Adal region you see all over Somaliland. Note that those are only due to differences in influence, not necessarily Arab-built. Similar to how how a large urban city can have buildings inspired by far-off places, while still built by natives.

It is emphasized that the Zaila' mosque was more similar to other coastal mosques of the region:

"While western Somaliland mosques are clearly related to those of Ethiopia, in the case of Zaylaʿ – an old, important city for centuries integrated into Indian Ocean trade networks – the closer parallels arise with mosques from other important Somali coastal cities such as Mogadishu (Chittick, 1982; Dualeh, 1996; Khalil, 1986; Pradines, 2003) and the Red Sea (Greenlaw, 1995). These parallels can be appreciated in terms of the presence of circular minarets, decorative patterns, polylobed arches and other architectural features; and reflect the status and links of Zaylaʿ with the wider Muslim world of Arabia, the Swahili Coast and the Red Sea." (Gomez & Torrez, "Urban mosques in the Horn of Africa during the medieval period" - 2023, p. 37-64)

I have no issue that some Arabs were paid to aid in the labor of constructing things either (still has to be proven, not speculated without grounds). But your logic of Somalis not building things is un-historic when all the inland constructions were done by Somalis.

"Although small, the sample of mosques from the Horn of Africa not only provides interesting data from an architectural point of view but adds interesting perspective on the historical, cultural and political context in which these mosques were built. From a geographical perspective, there is mounting evidence that the medieval mosques documented in Somaliland were influenced by at least three different traditions. There are significant variations between the coastal mosques of Zaylaʿ and those inland. At the same time, Somaliland mosques in the West, closest to the border with Ethiopia, seem to have been constructed in a different context from mosques in a town like Maduuna. The identification of these regional variations is not new and had already been suggested by Stéphane Pradines, who proposed the existence of a specific style for the mosques found in the Ifāt region, based on a series of architectural features –angled keystones at the top of the miḥrāb, dry-stone masonry, a very basic miḥrāb and a staircase minaret – all related to the sultanate of Barr Saʿd al-Dīn (Pradines, 2017: 28)."

Although I don't agree with this Spanish archeologist's use of the "nomad" characterization - the point stands that the workers for these Sa'd al-Din's cities and towns were of a local, native variation stretching a consistently wide geography reflecting the extent of the unique civilizational expanse.

With the limited archeological surveying, these were the sites found so far in historic Adal -- overwhelmingly on demographically dominated Somali lands:

You also have places built in the hinterland of Nugaal:

This notion that culturally, Somalis never produced physical infrastructure is nonsense in light of the evidence and basic common sense.

Somali archeology is in its infancy. People fly drones above places to inspect and easily find built sites everywhere, so you can expect tons of studies in the future that will cascade into a re-conception of the Somali peninsula which really is going to repeat what people like me have been saying for years as something groundbreaking and "new" when it is the reflection of their neglect.

 

[Banadiri Warrior]

You are delusional then. The only physical description we have of a Mogdishan sultan is by Ibn Battuta who very clearly stated he was a dark skinned Barbar. Merca was also stated to be ruled by the Hawiye. There is zero evidence of a Arab or Persian ruling class in the Benadir coast.

Doesn't mention him being from a samaale clan and also the fact that there weren't any samaales in mogadishu at the time proves it, unless you beleive they became extinct or something. If hawiye ruled marka why aren't there any structures left behind them or ancient ruins of mundul neighbourhoods?

The earliest hawiyes that still live in old quarter of Marka which are Saraha and Awbaali are Shukureere and Juunji, both came after migration of biimaal to south so post 1700s.

Arabs and persians that ruled the coast are well known a few examples are Fakhruddin Al Qassani dynasty ,Hilwani dynasty, Zuuzaani dynasty, Muzaffar dynasty, Shiiraazi dynasty, Gaameedle and also the periods where council of elders ruled for example prior to Fakhruddins rule.

 

[Zak12]

Doesn't mention him being from a samaale clan and also the fact that there weren't any samaales in mogadishu at the time proves it, unless you beleive they became extinct or something. If hawiye ruled marka why aren't there any structures left behind them or ancient ruins of mundul neighbourhoods?

The earliest hawiyes that still live in old quarter of Marka which are Saraha and Awbaali are Shukureere and Juunji, both came after migration of biimaal to south so post 1700s.

Arabs and persians that ruled the coast are well known a few examples are Fakhruddin Al Qassani dynasty ,Hilwani dynasty, Zuuzaani dynasty, Muzaffar dynasty, Shiiraazi dynasty, Gaameedle and also the periods where council of elders ruled for example prior to Fakhruddins rule.

The way he described the sultan, it could only ever be a Somali lol. Who cares about Samaale or whatever, Ibn Battuta never said or so much implied he was Arab or Persian. Merca also has ruins so I'm not sure what you are talking about, Hawiye were also still mentioned as far back as the 12th century, there is no getting around that.

Almost none of the dynasties you mentioned were Arab or Persian, please give evidence. While it is possible that Muzaffar was Arab in origin, they would have been quickly Somalized as once again, the rulers of Mogadishu were described as Somali and not Arab or Persian.

 

[Banadiri Warrior]

The way he described the sultan, it could only ever be a Somali lol. Who cares about Samaale or whatever, Ibn Battuta never said or so much implied he was Arab or Persian. Merca also has ruins so I'm not sure what you are talking about, Hawiye were also still mentioned as far back as the 12th century, there is no getting around that.

Does Somali not mean Samaale? Marka doesn't have any mundul ruins the only ruins are in Gibil Cad areas like Saraha and Awbaali . So according to you Arabs and persians conquered marka from hawiyes that lived there in 12th century

Almost none of the dynasties you mentioned were Arab or Persian, please give evidence. While it is possible that Muzaffar was Arab in origin, they would have been quickly Somalized as once again, the rulers of Mogadishu were described as Somali and not Arab or Persian.

Yes they are Arab and Persian, they're all mentioned and explained in Shariif Caydaruus book, it's already known that muzaffar was a Yemeni Arab , somalization doesn't exist nor does it mean anything, No primary banadiri source mentions rulers of Mogadishu being 'somali'.

 

[canjeeroiyoshah]

When did the Reer Hamar start migrating to South Somalia?

 

[Khaem]

When did the Reer Hamar start migrating to South Somalia?

"Reer Xamar" are just Somalis who bred with merchants from the indian ocean trade.

Does Somali not mean Samaale?

Somali means soo (go) & maal (milk).
Somalis named themselves differently according to their occupation and sometimes by their city. Somal was the name if the nomads but eventually during around the 1500s it became commonly used by all in the ethnicity.

Whats your insistence on using "Samaale" we are the tribe of Samaale AND Sab..

Although the name sounds similar we don't know for sure if the word somali comes from it. There are somali clans who are not samaale. Some are Sab and vice versa.

 

[canjeeroiyoshah]

"Reer Xamar" are just Somalis who bred with merchants from the indian ocean trade.


Somali means soo (go) & maal (milk).
Somalis named themselves differently according to their occupation and sometimes by their city. Somal was the name if the nomads but eventually during around the 1500s it became commonly used by all in the ethnicity.

Whats your insistence on using "Samaale" we are the tribe of Samaale AND Sab..

Although the name sounds similar we don't know for sure if the word somali comes from it. There are somali clans who are not samaale. Some are Sab and vice versa.

When I say Reer Hamar I'm referring to the Arab Somali community, mainly the ones from Yemen as they are the majority.

 

[Khaem]

When I say Reer Hamar I'm referring to the Arab Somali community, mainly the ones from Yemen as they are the majority.

There are no pure arabs. They are just decendants of mostly Yemeni merchants who came to Somali coastal towns and cities to trade.
Also people hype up the Arab influence when India had much more since they literally owned the trade. The Arabs, Persians and a good amount of Indians have been here for millenia but they are mixed with Somali and formed communities like the Benadiri. They are a merchant peoples, the idea they had anything close to political influence with their tiny population is bs.

The only place in the world were merchants held power was places like Venice, England, Netherlands. Historically all throughout history the merchant class have been pressed down by the nobility and millitary class. These a foriegn settlers in small numbers as well. The idea that Indian ocean traders would hold polticial influence in somali coast is bullshit. What army do these merchants have to hold control over somali with? All they do is rock up with their small boats and buy and sell goods. It's not very hard.

 

[Zak12]

Does Somali not mean Samaale?

It does but the first mention of Somali is by Emperor Yeshaq in the 15th century. Barbar was the ethnonym used for Somalis until then.

conquered marka from hawiyes that lived there in 12th century

No proof that they conquered it but at least you admitted the Hawiye were the rulers of the area.

they're all mentioned and explained in Shariif Caydaruus book

A random guy who compiled oral tales from long ago is not a source. Lets stick to actual medieval written sources and credible historians and archeologists please.

 

[canjeeroiyoshah]

There are no pure arabs.

That is factually incorrect a lot of the Reer Hamar clans are/were very insular people and hardly married out until only recently. Any Reer Koonfur Somali will tell you this. @Angelina can you confirm?

 

[Angelina]

That is factually incorrect a lot of the Reer Hamar clans are/were very insular people and hardly married out until only recently. Any Reer Koonfur Somali will tell you this. @Angelina can you confirm?

Not true. They have on average 40% Somali blood and most Reer Xamaris I’ve met have a great grandma that is an ethnic Somali. Also, they have significant Iranian and Pakistani blood with many of them being overwhelming being mostly Iranian.

 

[Banadiri Warrior]

"Reer Xamar" are just Somalis who bred with merchants from the indian ocean trade.

The reer samaale reer xamars mostly intermarried amongst themselves, usually it was gibil cads who took women from gibil madow not vice verse

Somali means soo (go) & maal (milk).
Somalis named themselves differently according to their occupation and sometimes by their city. Somal was the name if the nomads but eventually during around the 1500s it became commonly used by all in the ethnicity.

Here we go again, there's never an agreed upon answer from you lot, one person beleives it's from samaale another beleives it's from " go milk" and another beleives it's from "ذو مال" , Somali being samaale sounds most reasonable, no evidence for it being commonly used in 1500s , also digil and mirifles weren't identifying by somali till post colonization not even the ones of samaale origin amongst them nor were other reer samaale of the south

Whats your insistence on using "Samaale" we are the tribe of Samaale AND Sab..

Although the name sounds similar we don't know for sure if the word somali comes from it. There are somali clans who are not samaale. Some are Sab and vice versa.

Because only samaale's are relevant in the conversation there aren't any sab reer xamars

 

[Banadiri Warrior]

It does but the first mention of Somali is by Emperor Yeshaq in the 15th century. Barbar was the ethnonym used for Somalis until then.

No evidence for that , because the people that used barbar didn't visit the whole horn

No proof that they conquered it but at least you admitted the Hawiye were the rulers of the area.

If they didn't conquer it then how did Arabs and persians establish their town when there weren't any hawiyes? Unless you're suggesting they vanished or something

A random guy who compiled oral tales from long ago is not a source. Lets stick to actual medieval written sources and credible historians and archeologists please.

He's a banadiri who compiled information from the various manuscripts that were available amongst households and in the possession of qadhi's at the time, those are the relevant sources for history of xamar