Rome empire trading with somalis

[Midas]

The MSA languages are not descended from the OSA languages, no. Weird, I know. They should have maybe picked a different name, kekekeke. But they interestingly do have a Cushitic substratum, that appears to be legit. That same linguist I knew confirmed as much years ago as well. Yemen is also littered with the same ancient Cushitic rock-art as the Horn that begins to appear around 3000 BCE and ostensibly comes from the Sudanese Neolithic. This rock-art is found enough in Yemen that some scholars call it the "Ethiopian-Arabian" style of rock-art or something to that effect. All most likely left by early Cushites. I lost the paper but about a decade ago a Tigrinya friend also showed me a study showing Horn to Yemen archaeological influences even after this in that Horner stelae culture also spread to Yemen. It was definitely not always a one-way street influence wise. Yemen seems to have possibly been Cushitic before the Semites came from the Levant and supplanted the earlier Cushites.

Then there's also the fact that, historically, despite how much people try to ascribe Arab origins and dominance to Somali port-towns it was historically Somalis who had a far stronger presence in Yemeni towns like Mukha/Mocha and Aden whereas any descriptions of Somali port-towns from 1300s to the 1900s mostly give you the impression that anyone "light-skinned" or outright recorded as Arab was a very small minority. I wish @Idilinaa was online. He had a lot of cool stuff about Somalis being in Yemen as far back as the 1400s-1500s that he showed me ages back where he convincingly showed, with scholars like Shidaad, that the people being called al-Jabarti or al-Zaylai'i running around Yemen back then were basically Somalis. But point is that Yemen to Horn influence didn't always go that way. As you know, the northern Xabashis literally once ruled a part of southern Yemen.

But that being said, MSA speakers are actually a very interesting bunch in that they seem to have maintained a system similar to Somalis during the Early Modern Period of using Arabic as their written and trade language in many cases then their own mother-tongue (i.e. Mehri) to speak amongst themselves. Though, if I'm not mistaken, unlike with Somalis there's not much proof of a tradition like Far Wadaad among them until very, very recently. They seem to have overwhelmingly used Arabic and perhaps also OSA in the past to write, though I'll do some more digging sometime.

Yeah I think I might have seen that post about how there was even a somali sultan of one of these towns who fought with the tahirids or something. I once a twitter society listened to mohamed artan mention that there are somali names appearing in biographical dictionaries in the 8th/9th century. We have obviously had an old scholarly tradition. Their gonna publish in the coming year with looh press the phd theis of a somali guy who studied in azhar in the 70s in which wrote about where somalis appear in arabic primary sources.

 

[Midas]

Come again, niyahow? Please link! Please link! I've not been as up to date with pop gen as I should be.

It's the one on twitter that went viral rember. There was some debate about him being nubian. But the fact that his haplogroups are simialr to somalis and he grew up in the coast since fish biomaterials was foudn in his diet on top of the fact that he was with nabatean merchants made it seem like a no brainer

https://www.cell.com/cell/abstract/S0092-8674(23)01135-2?_returnURL=https%3A%2F%2Flinkinghub.elsevier.com%2Fretrieve%2Fpii%2FS0092867423011352%3Fshowall%3Dtru

 

[Shimbiris]

It's the one on twitter that went viral rember. There was some debate about him being nubian. But the fact that his haplogroups are simialr to somalis and he grew up in the coast since fish biomaterials was foudn in his diet on top of the fact that he was with nabatean merchants made it seem like a no brainer

https://www.cell.com/cell/abstract/S0092-8674(23)01135-2?_returnURL=https%3A%2F%2Flinkinghub.elsevier.com%2Fretrieve%2Fpii%2FS0092867423011352%3Fshowall%3Dtru

Holy fucking shit... Subxanallah. Thanks, bro.

 

[Midas]

No problem It's people who find the old sources like yourself that make connecting the dots easier. I even have a pet theory that the ethiopians mentioned in the iliad are somalis. Since they say that the Olympian have gone to a banquet in ethipoia three things stood out to me.

1) the homeric epics are basically oral traditions based of archaic/mycnean greece
2) in 1974 when Neville chittick did his small excavation he found mcynean pottery shards
3) when they did their excavatione around xiis in 2021 they found lots of shards of animals bones and pottery wine vessels. They said that this was evidence of banquets with roman traders who came their in the 1-3rd centuries a.d


When I added these together it didn't sound so crazy anymore. Plus there's the fact that we already know that the macrobians mentioned in herodotus seem to share a lot of somali customs.

 

[Aseer]

I haven't seen this but presumably since it was a major port and most slaves were sold through somali Ports its definitely possible.

Where did they source the slaves from?

 

[Aseer]

This thread is golden thank you @Midas and @Shimbiris for this insightful lesson.

 

[Emir of Zayla]

The MSA languages are not descended from the OSA languages, no. Weird, I know. They should have maybe picked a different name, kekekeke. But they interestingly do have a Cushitic substratum, that appears to be legit. That same linguist I knew confirmed as much years ago as well. Yemen is also littered with the same ancient Cushitic rock-art as the Horn that begins to appear around 3000 BCE and ostensibly comes from the Sudanese Neolithic. This rock-art is found enough in Yemen that some scholars call it the "Ethiopian-Arabian" style of rock-art or something to that effect. All most likely left by early Cushites. I lost the paper but about a decade ago a Tigrinya friend also showed me a study showing Horn to Yemen archaeological influences even after this in that Horner stelae culture also spread to Yemen. It was definitely not always a one-way street influence wise. Yemen seems to have possibly been Cushitic before the Semites came from the Levant and supplanted the earlier Cushites.

Old Southern Arabian languages have a Cushitic substratum? Were there migrations from Northeast Africa into Yemen during the Neolithic?

 

[daljirkadahsoon]

Old Southern Arabian languages have a Cushitic substratum? Were there migrations from Northeast Africa into Yemen during the Neolithic?

I remember the Yafa'i tribe in Yemen telling colonial anthropologists they had come in ancient times from the other side of the Red Sea.

 

[Idilinaa]

Then there's also the fact that, historically, despite how much people try to ascribe Arab origins and dominance to Somali port-towns it was historically Somalis who had a far stronger presence in Yemeni towns like Mukha/Mocha and Aden whereas any descriptions of Somali port-towns from 1300s to the 1900s mostly give you the impression that anyone "light-skinned" or outright recorded as Arab was a very small minority. I wish @Idilinaa was online. He had a lot of cool stuff about Somalis being in Yemen as far back as the 1400s-1500s that he showed me ages back where he convincingly showed, with scholars like Shidaad, that the people being called al-Jabarti or al-Zaylai'i running around Yemen back then were basically Somalis. But point is that Yemen to Horn influence didn't always go that way. As you know, the northern Xabashis literally once ruled a part of southern Yemen.

It's true not only the 1400 -1500s but also the 1200s
You have a description of Aden Inhabitants by Ibn Al-Mujawir in 13th century and he mentions the non- Arab ones which among them being Al-Jabartis, Al-Zaylai's and Al-Maqdishis among others nationalities who had become rich and very prominent in the city.

The only translation i could find of his work has many translation errors. In the original Arabic he seems to use terms like Baribar(Berber) and Habash as a lose generalized exonym for Horn of Africans, but the author of this book translates baribar as Somali and Habash as Abyssinian, when it's clear in a lot cases he isn't talking about neither .He translates Al-Jabarti into East Africans.

Only Al- Zayla'i , Al-Maqdishi , and Al-jabarti was place specific terms and they were clearly talking about Somalis who were using it as their Nisba to denote their place of origin. Jabarta was the name used by people from northern Somalia , Arabs refered to it as Jabarta region.

When you see the term ''Berber'' , you need to look at the context in which it is used and if they attached it to specific locale. Can't assume the ethnic origin. Same with ''Habash'', you can't assume they mean Abyssinian or Amhara.

When the Ibn Mujawir uses Baribar in the text in a lot of cases he is referring to Afar or Danakilah from the port of Beilul . He mentions Barbar living in the Danikilah quarter.

During the 1400-1500s a number of Al-Jabarti's/Al-Zayla's Somalis distinguished themselves in the country of Yemen .

Only the Southern coast had descriptions of fair skinned minorities and it's supported by documentation of Yemeni/Arab individuals migrating there and settling there as early as the 12th century in Arab sources. Descriptions and documented migration is largely absent when it comes to Zayla , which is consistently described as being inhabited by Dark skinned/black natives and not much else in Arab/Portuguese sources. The settlement there might have been reduced.


About the trade connection to Yemen in Pre-Islamic times. Said Shidad elaborate on that in a recent study:

Social and Economic Developments in Pre-Islamic Somalia: Introducing African-Arabian-Mediterranean Interaction

Although the history of Somalia is poorly studied, occasional researches show that the nation has a rich, ancient history. The purpose of this chapter is to explore the evolution of Somali society and aspects of their economy throughout circa 3000 BCE–500 CE. During 1960s–1980s, it has been...

www.intechopen.com

The unique role of Somalia in the Horn for the regional trade was also noted by Claudius Ptolemy c. 150 CE. He singled out the country for being a commercial partner of Yemen with the largest number of trade centers citing The Geography of Ptolemy; 1991. pp. 38, 107).

The trade between Somalia and Arabia must have existed long before and after the date of the inscriptions. Agatharchides noted around 150 BCE an increase the trade by a Yemeni presence in Somalia. Describing the Sabaeans and the Phoenicians as the richest nations in the world, he reported that the former were traveling and had settlements in the land of the aromatics

The author of Periplus already noted that the Somalis were crossing to Arabia on their own small boats. And on the basis of population exchange between Somalia and Yemen during the Islamic era, it is possible that the Somalis were also residing in the Yemeni coast in the Pre-Islamic era. Pliny noted that cinnamon merchants from the Horn were staying southern Yemeni ports about five years for business ([52], p. XXI, 42).

 

[Basra]

Watch this video in the end the Roman had traded with somalis. Watch how they describe the Somali people as unruly cause they can’t conquer us and they called us barberoi or barber.

The origins of Somalis are Berbers. And if u watch ALL Prophet pbuh hadith about berbers : They are:

crude, reer baadiya, offensive, selfish, and without manners. How can u blame them? They lives in abject isolation next to Tarzans home. The city dwellers is claimed to be better than berbers in Quran

 

[Idilinaa]

The origins of Somalis are Berbers. And if u watch ALL Prophet pbuh hadith about berbers : They are:

crude, reer baadiya, offensive, selfish, and without manners. How can u blame them? They lives in abject isolation next to Tarzans home. The city dwellers is claimed to be better than berbers in Quran

I believe some people on this thread are confused by the term ''Barbar''

Barbar when it was used by the Greeks/Arabs does not have the same meaning as modern term Barbarian. It didn't necessarily imply someone to be crude or ill mannered or uncivilized.

It simply meant in most cases someone who didn't speak Greek. They applied it to a wide group of people not just Somalis.

"From the Greek 'barbaroi,' meaning 'babblers,' used to mean non-Greeks, i.e., people who didn't speak Greek; from the sound that the Greeks thought they were making: 'bar bar bar bar...' "

Arab/Muslim geographers re-applied the term after being exposed to greek geographical texts.

Also wouldn't make sense for it to be used for Reer Badiyo when they applied the name ''Barbar'' to people living towns and cities who were engaging in mercantile activities

The modern meaning to the term ''Barbarian'' actually comes from late Roman interactions with surrounding Germanic groups.

 

[Midas]

I jus looked up the yafai tribe on Wikipedia. Interestingly in the area thag they live which is northeast of aden . One of the names for it is saro himyar. Doesn't that remind you of something . Hint saro = tall buildings in somali.