Myths of different peoples origin

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Dir (mostly T1a) and Hawiye (usually EV32) don't even share the same haplogroup so there isn't credence to the Irrir Samale myth. Hence can't be paternally related. Hawiye is closer to Darood and half of Issaq. Unless you are J you shouldn't claim Arab. Anyone who does is just a poser with an embarassing sheegada (false) lineage. What I will say is that autosomally Somalis are very similar. Also, there are many Somali maternal haplogroups. Too many to count.

Walaal, certain individuals have been pushing a non-substantiated idea that macro-clans can be associated with one haplogroup/subclade when we are severely lacking in representative Yfull samples. There isn't a definitive Samaale or Darood etc. subclade, and I doubt there will be as it is becoming more apparent that these clan identities started off as confederacies. Hawiyes, for example, are underrepresented on Yfull and for all we know they might consist of a variety of lineage groups. Similarly, other Samaales are none-existent on Yfull. Heck, even the Daaroods on Yfull are not representative of the entire clan, and they do not solely belong to one E-V32 subclade formed within the past two thousand years.

As for Dir, we might have an abundance of individuals who descend from a common ancestor within the past 2k years, however, this in not in itself evidence that there was a T ancestor who bore the 'Dir' name from whom all T Dirs descend from. What we do know for certain is that our ethnic identity stems from the eponymous Samaale ancestor to whom we owe the name of our language and ethnicity. The Samaale identity that you alluded has been part of our lineage for, at least, a thousand years even though the overwhelming majority of us do not readily identify or coalesce around such an identity for political or social purposes as subclan identities are stronger clan institutions. For instance, it was only in the 60's that the a Samaale clan identity was used for political purposes as exemplified by how Cigaal outsmarted his Daarood political opponents to secure the votes of Southern Somalis by subscribing to a Dir Irir Samaale lineage.

The Samaale ancestral identity is probably stronger among Southern Somalis as the diversity of Samaale lineages is found there. Apart from clan elders, genealogists etc., the average Northern Dir does not readily identify with a Dir identity, forget the Samaale identity. The problem is that anthropologists who have written about Somalis is the 20th century did not pay enough attention to the fact that the Somali/Samaale clan division is not Daarod, Hawiye, Dir etc. but is actually the nine branches of Samaale. Lewis and others allude to this but they include the non-Samaales in the Samaale identity because of some non-existent matrilineal connection. Some non-Samaales have recently tried to cast doubt on our Samaale ethnonym because they feel threatened and assume it was created in the 60's to dominate Somali politics. How could it be created for political purposes when there are historical records of it in the 19th century when Somalis were still predominately stuck in the nomadic phase of 'civilisation'?



The above is an extract from the 19th century writings of Italian explorer Luigi Robecchi Bricchetti. The above Abtirsi of Hawiye Irir and Aji (Father of Dir) Irir and how they trace their ancestry to Samaale/Somali was recounted to him by a Hawiye elder who lived more than 130 years ago. Try telling that to the ignorant fools who assume it is the creation of some Isaaq politician in the 60's.
 

Apollo

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Walaal, certain individuals have been pushing a non-substantiated idea that macro-clans can be associated with one haplogroup/subclade.

:browtf:

About that Samaale post, it was in jest, not too serious. Just hypothesizing.

By the way, if the Marehan become E-Y163928 or E-Y163949 then this is the strongest proto-Darod lineage out there. We will find out soon (Marehan guy did Dante). If the Marehan become something basal or far off, then I will capitulate and declare the Darod clan a confederacy.
 
:browtf:

About that Samaale post, it was in jest, not too serious. Just hypothesizing.

By the way, if the Marehan become E-Y163928 or E-Y163949 then this is the strongest proto-Darod lineage out there. We will find out soon (Marehan guy did Dante). If the Marehan become something basal or far off, then I will capitulate and declare the Darod clan a confederacy.

I was not commenting in relation to the Samaale post. My issue is that the ignorant sheep that come across statements associating a Macro Clan clan with a particular y-DNA etc. will swallow it without giving shit much thought.

There are a lot of people who are not as knowledgeable as you, and they ignorantly swallow the generalisations spouted online. For instance, you state that the Proto=Daarood lineage might be the above subclades if a MX tests positive for it. My issue with such a generalisation is that Yfull TMRCA dates are not set in stone, they are estimates, and even if they were in this case, E-Y163949 would not support the formation of a Daarood clan identity which was already in existence in the 15th century as evinced by the fact that Daarood subclans were waging war as part of Axmed Gurey's army. As for E-Y163928, it could be a hypothetical candidate but what if an Ogaden and a MX are closer to each other than the main Harti cluster? This would throw a spanner in the works as the entire Daarood clan tree is thrown into doubt.

Similarly, a clan such as Maxamud Saleebaan is thrown out of both the Daarood and Harti clan structure because they are clearly not related to most Daaroods tested on Ftdna/Yfull. Heck I am closer to Gulf Arabs than you are to them. Maybe it is not such a bad thing that DNA might demonstrate that macro-clan identities are ancient social constructs which were not forged in blood. Die-hard Qabilists will have to look in the mirror and come to terms with the fact that what they were raised to believe has no solid blood-based foundations. This only applies to the 'Say Wallahi Qabilists' born just before or after the Civil War. Mfkers back home will be slower in getting the news.

Even the suggestion that there is one Somali E-V32 subclade is also premature considering that neighbouring Horn groups have not been tested as much as Somalis. Furthermore, I doubt any subsequent E-V32 subclade splits are clear cut as exemplified by the fact that a Dhulbahante whose clan has no borders whatsoever with non-Somali ethnic groups has tested positive for a 'non-Somali' E-V32 lineage. What if his lineage was part of the same migration into Northern Somalia that bore the main Somali E-V32 cluster on Yfull?
 
#raising awareness
 

Mckenzie

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I was not commenting in relation to the Samaale post. My issue is that the ignorant sheep that come across statements associating a Macro Clan clan with a particular y-DNA etc. will swallow it without giving shit much thought.

There are a lot of people who are not as knowledgeable as you, and they ignorantly swallow the generalisations spouted online. For instance, you state that the Proto=Daarood lineage might be the above subclades if a MX tests positive for it. My issue with such a generalisation is that Yfull TMRCA dates are not set in stone, they are estimates, and even if they were in this case, E-Y163949 would not support the formation of a Daarood clan identity which was already in existence in the 15th century as evinced by the fact that Daarood subclans were waging war as part of Axmed Gurey's army. As for E-Y163928, it could be a hypothetical candidate but what if an Ogaden and a MX are closer to each other than the main Harti cluster? This would throw a spanner in the works as the entire Daarood clan tree is thrown into doubt.

Similarly, a clan such as Maxamud Saleebaan is thrown out of both the Daarood and Harti clan structure because they are clearly not related to most Daaroods tested on Ftdna/Yfull. Heck I am closer to Gulf Arabs than you are to them. Maybe it is not such a bad thing that DNA might demonstrate that macro-clan identities are ancient social constructs which were not forged in blood. Die-hard Qabilists will have to look in the mirror and come to terms with the fact that what they were raised to believe has no solid blood-based foundations. This only applies to the 'Say Wallahi Qabilists' born just before or after the Civil War. Mfkers back home will be slower in getting the news.

Even the suggestion that there is one Somali E-V32 subclade is also premature considering that neighbouring Horn groups have not been tested as much as Somalis. Furthermore, I doubt any subsequent E-V32 subclade splits are clear cut as exemplified by the fact that a Dhulbahante whose clan has no borders whatsoever with non-Somali ethnic groups has tested positive for a 'non-Somali' E-V32 lineage. What if his lineage was part of the same migration into Northern Somalia that bore the main Somali E-V32 cluster on Yfull?

Good post sxb, i noticed the Northern Dir identify a lot less as Dir compared to Biimaal, Biimaal Gaadsan, Fiqi Maxamuud, Qubeys, Baajamaal etc could there be a split in DNA too? Biimaal is from Tadjoura but the other clans have long been southerners. The Hawiye and Dir Irir folktale was born in Ethiopia where they originally bordered, all the cluster clans there need to be tested including Gurgure, Jaarso, Karanle, Gugundhabe etc.

Offtopic, @Apollo @anonimo do you think the Tobou of Libya have Somali origin? Just look at these people and tell me they don't look Somali?

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Screenshot_20210329-134014_YouTube.jpg


Screenshot_20210329-134440_YouTube.jpg
 

Apollo

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Offtopic, @Apollo @anonimo do you think the Tobou of Libya have Somali origin? Just look at these people and tell me they don't look Somali?

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They don't have any Somali origins. They are mostly local Nilotes with some Berber Libyan and Ancient Egyptian admixture. Populations that are mostly Sub-Saharan African but with some North African tend to resemble Somalis vaguely, like with Fulanis and Nubians.
 

Mckenzie

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They don't have any Somali origins. They are mostly local Nilotes with some Berber Libyan and Ancient Egyptian admixture. Populations that are mostly Sub-Saharan African but with some North African tend to resemble Somalis vaguely, like with Fulanis and Nubians.

That must explain the weak gene myth, we have too many similar looking ethnicities
 

Mckenzie

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We mixed ourselves but its ancient admixture

Yea. Some Hawiye elder in the late 19th century told an Italian explorer that Somalis are a mix of four, Eastern Arab-Proto Cushite-Himyari-Ancient Egyptian. It makes sense culturally, the Eastern Arabs accepted Islam without War like us, we share a numeric system with Cushites, we shared maritime history with the early Himyars and Ancient Egyptians well, this would be a stretch but there are traces of our language and nomad culture from there too.
 
Good post sxb, i noticed the Northern Dir identify a lot less as Dir compared to Biimaal, Biimaal Gaadsan, Fiqi Maxamuud, Qubeys, Baajamaal etc could there be a split in DNA too? Biimaal is from Tadjoura but the other clans have long been southerners. The Hawiye and Dir Irir folktale was born in Ethiopia where they originally bordered, all the cluster clans there need to be tested including Gurgure, Jaarso, Karanle, Gugundhabe etc.

Offtopic, @Apollo @anonimo do you think the Tobou of Libya have Somali origin? Just look at these people and tell me they don't look Somali?

There is a simple explanation for why most Dir clans do not identify as Dir first. As a Hawiye, you are familiar with the old Samaale folktale of the Liixda Hawiye and their more numerous Dir cousins. Most of us ceased to identify with the Macro-clan centuries ago due to the dissolution of the Aji hegenomy in Northern Somalia and the natural growth of clans. As you probably know, Southern Samaales came under the rule of Xeer Ajuran whilst the North was the realm of Xeer Aji.

Even the Biimaal did not historically identify as Dir first. Nor do the Gurre, Gurgure, Garire, Quranyow Garre, Bajamal etc. also state that they are Dir first. A cohesive Dir identity existed hundreds of years back, the only ones who identify/identified themselves as Dir first are the Surre (Fiqi Maxamed, Qubeys, Saleebaan Cabdalla) due to the fact that they were predominately Xeers that settled among alien host clans who knew only the Dir umbrella. Not too dissimilar to how the Hawiye in Sitti are known as Hawiye instead of their respective subclans.

We should test more Samaale sub sub subclans as it appears that, after Dir, haplogroup T is more commonly found among Hawiye. For instance, one of my 23andme matches is an Ayanle Cayr Farax who is also haplogroup T. Nonetheless, this does not prove that clan myths are real, however, it might explain how we propagated from the same geographic area where a diversity of genetic lineages coexisted.


By the way, there is a Jaarso who isT on 23andme. Could be the Somali T? However, the entire clan is not of Dir origin, only some sections are, and there could also be E-V32 Dirs among them for all I know.

As for the Tobou, Apollo answered your question. Nada to do with us, some of them have a similar phenotype due to an ancient admixture. Some look more Madow though like some Sudanese (North).
 

greyhound stone

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Yea. Some Hawiye elder in the late 19th century told an Italian explorer that Somalis are a mix of four, Eastern Arab-Proto Cushite-Himyari-Ancient Egyptian. It makes sense culturally, the Eastern Arabs accepted Islam without War like us, we share a numeric system with Cushites, we shared maritime history with the early Himyars and Ancient Egyptians well, this would be a stretch but there are traces of our language and nomad culture from there too.
So we mixed of arabs, proto cushites, ancient Egyptians?? Were they madow or cadaan? . Eastern arabs never heard that one before surprising
 

Mckenzie

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So we mixed of arabs, proto cushites, ancient Egyptians?? Were they madow or cadaan? . Eastern arabs never heard that one before surprising

Dark red and brown. Other colors are variations. This is why the same family can have kids with different skin texture, hair type and even eye colour
 
I always get confused of the darod and issaq origin cause most people say it was Arabs :francis:

but how are both sheik issaq and darod bani hashim that’s probably a myth:mjlol:

im guessing Somalis aren’t decendents of Arabs :cosbyhmm:
Waxaad soo qortay waa danbi ee Ilaahay cafis waydiiso
. Sheikh Iidoor waa Oromo , xagee baad ugu dhigtay Bani Hashim .
Daarood nin Carab ayuu ahaa waliba reerka nabi Maxamed uu dhaw.
 
I was not commenting in relation to the Samaale post. My issue is that the ignorant sheep that come across statements associating a Macro Clan clan with a particular y-DNA etc. will swallow it without giving shit much thought.

There are a lot of people who are not as knowledgeable as you, and they ignorantly swallow the generalisations spouted online. For instance, you state that the Proto=Daarood lineage might be the above subclades if a MX tests positive for it. My issue with such a generalisation is that Yfull TMRCA dates are not set in stone, they are estimates, and even if they were in this case, E-Y163949 would not support the formation of a Daarood clan identity which was already in existence in the 15th century as evinced by the fact that Daarood subclans were waging war as part of Axmed Gurey's army. As for E-Y163928, it could be a hypothetical candidate but what if an Ogaden and a MX are closer to each other than the main Harti cluster? This would throw a spanner in the works as the entire Daarood clan tree is thrown into doubt.

Similarly, a clan such as Maxamud Saleebaan is thrown out of both the Daarood and Harti clan structure because they are clearly not related to most Daaroods tested on Ftdna/Yfull. Heck I am closer to Gulf Arabs than you are to them. Maybe it is not such a bad thing that DNA might demonstrate that macro-clan identities are ancient social constructs which were not forged in blood. Die-hard Qabilists will have to look in the mirror and come to terms with the fact that what they were raised to believe has no solid blood-based foundations. This only applies to the 'Say Wallahi Qabilists' born just before or after the Civil War. Mfkers back home will be slower in getting the news.

Even the suggestion that there is one Somali E-V32 subclade is also premature considering that neighbouring Horn groups have not been tested as much as Somalis. Furthermore, I doubt any subsequent E-V32 subclade splits are clear cut as exemplified by the fact that a Dhulbahante whose clan has no borders whatsoever with non-Somali ethnic groups has tested positive for a 'non-Somali' E-V32 lineage. What if his lineage was part of the same migration into Northern Somalia that bore the main Somali E-V32 cluster on Yfull?
المثل العربي يقول اذا بيتكم من زجاج لاترمي ناس بالحجارة
If your house is made of glass, don't throw stones at people.
markaad ogaatay xaqiiqada reerkeena Dir inaad tihiin ( Mix ) Indian iyo Madowta Sudan ( John Garang Family ) ayaad Daarood ku waalatay .
Been baad ka sheegtay Maxamuud Saleebaan inay ahayn Daarood iyo Harti .
80% Harti waa isku DNA gaar Ahaan Dhulbahante iyo Maxamuud Saleebaan , keep your lies for yourself .
 

Shimbiris

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So we mixed of arabs, proto cushites, ancient Egyptians?? Were they madow or cadaan? . Eastern arabs never heard that one before surprising

No. This is basically what Somalis are as far as we can so far tell:

It is fairly straight-forward:

  • Mesolithic/Neolithic Egyptians mixed with Mesolithic/Neolithic Sudanese
  • Group 1 has no real modern equivalent but the closest are modern day Copts & Bedouins
  • Group 2 also has no real equivalents today but the closest are modern day Dinka & Gumuz
  • This mixture forms the earliest Cushites in Sudan and Southern Egypt around the Neolithic
  • A segment of these people (Proto-Agaw-East-South) eventually go down into the Horn
  • There they acquire varying degrees of Mota (native Ethio HG) related admixture
  • Eventually around 1000 BCE or so people from Yemen come with Proto-Ethiosemitic
  • This group leaves a strong genetic mark in the northern highlands and a linguistic legacy
  • Later internal migrations occur in the Horn so everyone has some of the ancient Yemeni
And that's the ancestral history of modern Somalis in a nutshell. Y-DNA E-V32 and T-L208 come from the ancient North-African ancestors as do likely all the mtDNA N&M lineages while the trace amounts of A-M13 and nearly all the L(xM&N) lineages come from the native East African ancestors while a few L lineages do seem to come from native Ethio HGs. Then the trace amounts of J1 is likely all from the Jazeera in some way or another.

I'd wager like 80%+ of Somalis' ancestry comes from "Group 1 & 2" whereas at best 5-10% comes from ancient Yemen and 1-5% comes from the native Ethio Hunter-Gatherers and that's that.

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Tl;dr: Neolithic Sudanese + Neolithic North-African mixes who migrated into the Horn then got some South-Arabian around 2,500-3,000 years ago and also mixed a bit with native Horn Hunter-Gatherers when they got to the Horn. That's almost all Cushitic-Ethiosemitic Horners in a nutshell. It's mainly just the percentages of each ancestry component that differ like Tigrays obviously having way more (20-30%) of the South-Arabian than Somalis (1-10%).

The Romans were a bit Near Eastern shifted than today's Italians, right?


Dude, that Eurogenes blog removed the samples. Somebody who downloaded the lists of cords needs to share it. Lol

The gist I got from the paper's samples on ancient Romans and the paper itself is this:
  • The pre-Latin people Copper-Age people were basically like Sardinians (heavily Anatolian Neolithic with notable WHG)
  • Early Latini tribes people who encroached on the prior people were heavily Anatolian Neolithic with a lot of steppe and would have clustered around where North-Italians do. Intermediates between the Middle-East and North-Central Europe but more biased toward North-Central Europe (60-40 or 70-30). I ran the samples myself though and their ME shift seems entirely Anatolian Farmer. They do not have Greek/Levantine (East-Med) admixture. However, there are two samples from their time who are heavily East-Med admixed like later Imperial samples so the East-Med admixture was starting to show up even back then around Rome.
  • We only have two "Republican" era samples in truth and they are both totally different despite being from the same site and time period. One looks heavily East-Med admixed like later Imperial era samples and one looks pretty much like the old Latini tribes people.
  • Imperial era Romans seem uniformly heavily East-Med admixed with lots of ancestry from Greece and the Levant and lots of J and E lineages too. What I described with the Latini tribes people's shift flips and it's more like a 60-40 or above shift toward the Middle-East now.
This guy summarizes it rather well:

Basically Romans started out like Sardinians then North Italian-like, then by late Republican Era and early Imperial Era Magna Graecians and then the Eastern provinces drastically changed the demographics.

And I have those samples here with all the other ancient Italian samples:

Link

Dunno why Davidski would delete them if he apparently did.
 
المثل العربي يقول اذا بيتكم من زجاج لاترمي ناس بالحجارة
If your house is made of glass, don't throw stones at people.
markaad ogaatay xaqiiqada reerkeena Dir inaad tihiin ( Mix ) Indian iyo Madowta Sudan ( John Garang Family ) ayaad Daarood ku waalatay .
Been baad ka sheegtay Maxamuud Saleebaan inay ahayn Daarood iyo Harti .
80% Harti waa isku DNA gaar Ahaan Dhulbahante iyo Maxamuud Saleebaan , keep your lies for yourself .

Baaro sida loo aqriyo Afka Ingiriisiga.

Dameer aan wax akhrini karin, la doodi maayo.

 
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