GENETICS My results.....
- Thread starter Doctorabdi
- Start date
Garaad Awal
Former African
Majority of Moroccans are recent migrants from the countryside probably also applies to Algeria.The historical city folks were Moriscos,Jews (some Sephardic & some are the older layers), some Arab & Berber elites/scholars.
Garaad Awal
Former African
@Doctorabdi Your IBM is lower than my son and your natufian slightly higher than him. Your father might be as Arab as my son's grandfather (Arab Hashemite from the Sahara). I'll make a sim of your father
Garaad Awal
Former African
@Doctorabdi Your father's sim result's vs my wife's (maternal Northern Morocco Berber & paternal Arab South)
Doctorabdi
A nomad with no true place
Very intriguing stuff akhi, do you know which tribe your wife's father comes from? I've heard there were yemeni tribes there
Garaad Awal
Former African
She is not from the Bedouin Arab tribes. She is an Ashraaf Hashemite from the same tribe as the King. The Alawite just belong to a different sub-branch of the tribe. They definitely admixed with the Bedouin Arabs of SE Morocco who were mostly Bani Ma3qil and the local Berber tribes of the region. Her ancestor entered in 1265 AD while the Bedouins entered the Maghreb a century earlier Her paternal grandmother is full a blown Berber woman. My wife also has Bani Hilal Hyayna ancestry from a Great Grandmother.
The Arabs of Morocco are mostly Bani Hilal tribes on the Atlantic coast and parts of the North with a minority Bani Ma3qil in SE Morocco & the disputed Moroccan Western Saharan region.
Map of the Yemeni Bani Ma3qil tribe distribution. They are not majority in many of those areas, this is just a map of where they live.
Arabsiyawi
HA Activist.
@Doctorabdi You can try and run your raw data here and it'll predict your Ydna. I tried it with my data from both MyHeritage and 23andme and they were correct. It also works with ancestryDNA.
:https://cladefinder.yseq.net/index.php
:https://cladefinder.yseq.net/index.php
Doctorabdi
A nomad with no true place
It predicts G-L91? Isn't that a european haplogroup
Arabsiyawi
HA Activist.
Haplogroup G is quite widespread and was present in Europe and Western Asia since the neolithic. It can be old in North Africa as well too. Some more recent ones belong to jews in Morocco. On FTDNA 8% of all the testers who put Morocco as a place of paternal origins belonged to haplogroup G.
I'm pretty sure I've read about Alaouites belonging to G-L91.
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The alchemist
VIP
I checked. Really, the same reading. You're higher Arab from your father's side, lower IBM, and with potentially higher historic Islamic western Mediterranean mix since your EEF appears high, and you do have some Eastern Mediterranean type influence that likely could have come with the Arab, or not.
The alchemist
VIP
There are North Africans under G-L91, and they are dated way after the Middle Neolithic (so nothing old or related to the introduction of farming at all). It fits with the Phoenician, Islamic Spain, and Mycenean influence for the specific samples under that clade. Those people were diverse and brought Southern European lineages to North Africa.
An example. I think this is typical Phoenician:
This could have been a Mycenaean influence:
This was likely an introduction from Islamic Iberia:
There is also Roman influence, of course.
It is very highly likely he got it from one of those processes, since no matter, it was a Mediterranean introduction.
The alchemist
VIP
Aren't those people the equivalent of the Gibil Cads? They had an effect in minor forms on the broader urbanizing Moroccan once they got mostly outmixed, but I mean urbanites as in today's large cities' inhabitants. To illustrate an example, if you go to Casablanca and sample random guys on the streets.
I also don't think minorities are the driving force of urbanism. Minorities often come to capitalize on preexisting economies while carving their niche,. Granted, they could have punched above their weight in terms of money and influence. We have to be careful of these elite historiographic interpretations. The Fassi elite family lineages were likely never a majority of Fez.
I once said that the notion that Phoenicians arrived at an empty coastal land, colonizing space untouched in North Africa, was nonsense. Lo and behold, archaeological evidence recently published shows that Berbers lived along the coast before and during the Phoenician presence, substantiating my position that they came to a place already inhabited. The Romans lied when they said: terra nullius
These Fassi people (who are mixed people), Sephardic Jews, and what else, lived in vibrant regions that were economic highlights of the common Berber-Arab Cosmopolitan economic centralization. I do agree that likely most of today's urbanites are partly from a relatively recent influx from the village outskirts. But that cannot be all of them. Urbanism existed for many centuries, heck, Berbers had Urbanism long before Arabs even came to the region.
This was s city around the 3rd century. It was Berber-Roman.
Garaad Awal
Former African
Urban populations in the Western Maghreb and Al-Andalus were historically very cosmopolitan. In the Somali context, communities resembling the cadcad identity are generally limited to the Banadir region and do not exist in historical urban centers such as Saylac, Berbera, or even Harar.
In contrast, the urban centers of the Maghreb from Rabat in Morocco to Sfax in Tunisia were commonly composed of a diverse mix of Moriscos, Jews, and Berber-Arab elites. A significant portion of Casablanca’s population descends from migrants originating in the surrounding Atlantic plains, an area historically inhabited by Hilali Arab pastoralists. These groups, much like their counterparts in Algeria, favored life on the plains rather than in mountainous or coastal areas dominated by hostile Berber tribes.
Today, the average Casawi tends to have a high degree of both Arabian and West African ancestry (Arabs of the Western Maghreb on average have higher West African than their Berber counterparts).
Casablanca is notably more cosmopolitan than many other Moroccan cities, which often reflect the demographics of their adjacent rural regions. It’s important to note that Casablanca, unlike historically established cities such as Fez, Tangier, Tetouan, Rabat, and Marrakech, developed more recently. Algeria, similarly, has its own deeply rooted urban centers, including Tlemcen, Oran, Constantine, Bejaia, and Algiers.
I was only speaking from the Western Maghreb + Tunisia context. The driving force of urbanization in the Western Maghreb was mostly because of French colonization, modernization and job seeking.
Prior to French colonization in Morocco besides the Makhzen (royal court),urban towns & Bedouin tribes, it was mostly an Amazigh speaking nation with Darija being lingua Franca between all groups when doing trade.Today tho majority don’t speak a Berber language and again the root cause was mass migration from the rural areas who assimilated into their urban environments.
I have seen results from the various urban cities across the Maghreb. They are all super cosmopolitan but each particular city has their own blend based on who settled there.
In Fez case, it was super Jewish (ethnically not religiously) with a minor Andalusi component compared to Tetouan which was founded by Moriscos and is heavily influenced by Andalusi culture.
Rural folks outnumber the original inhabitants by a very large margin. Fez for example had their Fassi elite families all flee to Casablanca during the French protectorate days once Casa became the business hub of the country. The Jewish population after independence then all fled to Israel as well.
My mother-in-law who was born in the city used to speak the Fassi dialect but was shamed by the newer waves of migrants to speak their rural dialect. She herself descends from an earlier wave of migrants to the city who admixed with local women ( doesn’t belong to the old core urban class) hence why my wife has minor Jewish ancestry and plenty of Jewish matches.
Most of the inhabitants probably weren’t Berber Is this Volubilis?
Doctorabdi
A nomad with no true place
@The alchemist @Garaad Awal
I think i've been using less accurate g25 cords maybe it was the wrong website?, i've asked the owner of g25 for mine and he gave me it.
The previous cords, aren't "real cords" per say. They seem to just be a proxy, from what i've read. Very frustrating
Further apologies
I think i've been using less accurate g25 cords maybe it was the wrong website?, i've asked the owner of g25 for mine and he gave me it.
The previous cords, aren't "real cords" per say. They seem to just be a proxy, from what i've read. Very frustrating
Further apologies
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The sim G25 are known to not be excessively reliable. My sim gives high Ethio_HG for example
Yours might be inflating Arabian given the low Arabian on your ancestryDNA result
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The alchemist
VIP
I do agree it was more cosmopolitan, and the minorities had much higher significance in terms of proportion than today, and that much urban increase occurred through the migration of rural groups. That is what happened in many countries worldwide at the turn of the 1900s. But I simply reject that these minorities characterize the urban demographics rather than being a part of it. They could have been sizable, but the majority -- I highly doubt it. The Jews had a quarter in Fez; they were not the central demographic. It's very much in parallel to the situation of the Ghibil Cad. Merchants that settled in a region where people already existed economically and leveraged that.
The genetics of Moroccans seem to be overall quite heterogenously stable. Meaning with slight shifts that follow trends, they are not highly discrepant between samples. They all have variations of regional genetics that are defined by complex peopling for millennia and also variably shifted by more recent influences from said minorities.
With regards to the Berber-Roman city of Volubilis, yes. The region that the city lay in was a many km inland away from the coastal settlement, proven to have a continual local presence since the Bronze Age. The region where Volubilis existed was already inhabited by Berbers. Material excavation shows pottery that is 5000 years old. It is safe to say, the notion that settlement was entirely or even majority Roman is hard to pull. There were older layers before the Roman, showing trade with the Phoenicians. Besides, Volubilis was in the center of a Berber kingdom, and as that became a client state for the Romans, they got resources, design, architecture, and definitely skilled workers, plus some migration. Those Berbers became somewhat Romanized. Romans remodelled the area in their architectural signature after it became a client state. They did not establish the city. 'Volubilis' is not Latin and is believed by experts to be a Latinized local name. Why is it that a city the Romans established has a name of Berber origin if it is supposedly Roman?
Ethnic Berbers were Romanized, so identity did change because technically that region became part of the Roman Empire. Macrinus was a Roman emperor of Berber origin:
I agree that colonialism actually changed the urbanism flow in Morocco. Fez became much less relevant once the French made Rabat the capital.
Doctorabdi
A nomad with no true place
Doctorabdi
A nomad with no true place
I've only used the g25 modern scaled populations on vahaduo, for some reason there is no arabian population? This is confusing
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The alchemist
VIP
His AncestryDNA is not that reliable when it comes to Arab-specific values. They took a whole North African ancestral complex with pre-baked Arab genetics. His Arab DNA proportion is not markedly higher than full Maghrebi Arabs, making it not out of the ordinary. His father, on the other hand, will express a general relative increase.
Doctorabdi
A nomad with no true place
Makes sense, is there a difference between my actual g25 cords and the simulated proxy ones? I'm not well versed in g25 as well as you sxb
