GENETICS Mixed Somali DNA testing

[Shimbiris]

See this Soqotri Mehri girl , they look very Arabian except they are far more pigmented.

Mehris are fully Eurasian?

Excerpt from an Abstract: " Consistent with other studies, we found that North African and Near Eastern populations (including the Yemeni...

anthromadness.blogspot.com

I've always been so wigged out by these darker southern Arabian groups like some Mehris and Soqotris. You can see they have plainly Arabian faces but they're just dark-skinned. Waa yab.



It's so interesting too how their languages have Cushitic substrates and Yemen's archaeology is strewn with cave-paintings and things like stelae which are linked to Cushitic pastoralists who expanded across the Horn from around 3000 BCE onwards. Cushitic was stronk once, niyahow. From Yemen to Chad and from Lower Nubia (now south Egypt) to South Africa then the Bantus and Semites came.

 

[Idilinaa]

I've always been so wigged out by these darker southern Arabian groups like some Mehris and Soqotris. You can see they have plainly Arabian faces but they're just dark-skinned. Waa yab.



It's so interesting too how their languages have Cushitic substrates and Yemen's archaeology is strewn with cave-paintings and things like stelae which are linked to Cushitic pastoralists who expanded across the Horn from around 3000 BCE onwards. Cushitic was stronk once, niyahow. From Yemen to Chad and from Lower Nubia (now south Egypt) to South Africa then the Bantus and Semites came.

Aside from the semtization of the original cushitic languages in the south that happened several thousands of years ago. It is a shame that these same Modern South Arabian languages are dying out and are apart of the endangered language project.

 

[Sophisticate]

No. You are both overdoing it with both the north and the south. Almost no one in the north has actual Arab admixture. If they do it's usually very recent, extremely rare and known to them in their family like an ayeeyo or hooyo who is Yemeni-Somali (Somalized Yemenis who settled in some of the coastal towns). The Arabian found in northerners is also found in reer Koonfur in basically the same amounts on average. It's even found all the way down in Kenya in even Rendilles to some extent. It's ancient and seems to have something to do with intra-Horn admixture as modeling Somalis as part Xabash or Oromo makes the Yemeni admixture disappear. And the same goes for reer Koonfur regarding exotic admixture in them. It's extremely rare to find anyone with "Bantu" or even Cadcad admixture. Let's not pretend it's the norm. The vast majority of Geeljires all over the place look pretty much the same.

It might not be common but I find it on 23andme. @Apollo and @Al-Ma'mun will back me up on this. There are some folks I didn't even know were Somali when I walked past them and they spoke some bird language. I'd need an interpreter. Somalis are quite homogenous overall (North-to-South) but you have more diversity down there and significantly more outliers relative to Somalis in other areas (even if it is limited to certain locales).

 

[The alchemist]

I think some strange mixture of two types of people a couple of millennia back might explain this. I don't think the proto-Somalis were of one group, from a theoretical point of view (just for the conversation to find valid model alternatives to manipulate to fit what we're sitting with). Maybe one was highly Arab with partial Somali-like composition but population size-wise lower and then absorbed into tribes that had high exogamy intermarriages to distribute the frequency. This idea does not explain why there is a push and pull relationship between the Natufian and Arab proxies on the samples when using G25. Why is it that Somalis got high Sub-Saharan African amount compared to the Early Pastoral Neolithic who, if you remove the Mota-like forager stuff they received in the Horn, would be overwhelming non-African on a level beyond any extant Horner? Can it be that our ancestors mixed with Nilotic-like peoples post-migration into the Horn of Africa? Or were the early Cushitic-speakers more diverse because I don't think we directly descend from those Early Pastoral Neolithic (I understand we overlap a lot) indirectly? Is there a chance that the Mota-like ancestry was on an intermediate between Nilotic-like and East African hunter-gatherer, or a bit southern-shifted cline of Mota characterized by geography as we see in the studies?

Furthermore, we have established that Mota carried deep ancestry designated "Ghost modern" at 30%. This component seems to be ANA-like, probably with some level of drift. Hunter-gatherers at the OOA times until 20kya used to migrate long distances, so it makes sense the forager people admixed highly with the North African endemic portion of Iberomaurusian.

Lipson et al. 2022 (I recommend reading):

Below I'm using Ancient North African simulated coordinate extracted from Taforalt samples on Mota (not trying to model here, only parse out ANA which conveniently fits with the Ghost modern proportion):

The fact is, this model is silly if read directly with the central African rainforest hunter-gatherers (Mbuti) and southern African foragers (ZAF_2100BP), these I placed only to tease out the ANA.

The Mota-related and southern-African-related ancestry sources are inferred to split deeply along their respective lineages, meaning that, in some sense, they represent ‘ghost’ populations (without closely related sampled representatives).

The Mota-related genetics is very ancient and forms a partially important baseline for most of the Paleolithic diversity.

"Although it is not possible at present to estimate when and how quickly this three-way cline emerged, it must have post-dated both the emergence of the Mota-related lineage around 80–60 ka"

 

[Shimbiris]

It might not be common but I find it on 23andme. @Apollo and @Al-Ma'mun will back me up on this. There are some folks I didn't even know were Somali when I walked past them and they spoke some bird language. I'd need an interpreter. Somalis are quite homogenous overall (North-to-South) but you have more diversity down there and significantly more outliers relative to Somalis in other areas (even if it is limited to certain locales).

23andme as its recently been is dubious. It shows questionable 0.something to 2% stuff in a lot of people both in the north and the south. It claims I am 0.something SE African/Congolese when I'm like 90% from the north and know for a fact from deeper analyses over the course of a decade that there's nothing Bantu in me. Hilariously, I'm consistently on the very upper end of MENA admixture among Somalis. I don't trust that site much. Show me your raw data and run it through stuff like G25 or Punt's ADMIX calcs and we'll talk is what I'd usually say to people. And in that regard, I'll be real here, I'm genuinely disappointed by how boring Somalis are overall. Very homogenous, as you say.

But, that being said, I see as many outliers in the north as in the south if we're going off 23andme. I just checked 23andme in fact. About 10 random relatives from Koonfur and Woqooyi (Galbeed to Bari) respectively. One genuine outlier each. Both girls with probably a great grandparent who's not Somali going off the percentages. Koonfur girl's is a Bantu and the Woqooyi girl's is a Yemeni. Everyone else is 100% Somali like you like them.

Spoiler

You don't have permission to view the spoiler content. Log in or register now.

 

[Shimbiris]

@Apollo

I haven't checked 23andme in a little while. I appear to have a relative in California with the surname Silverstein and they are EXACTLY 50% Ashkenazi Jewish. Naag Somali married nin Yahud. I have a Califronian Jewish cousin. There's a future for me in Hollywood, ma nigga.

 

[anonimo]

Saaxiib, I'm confused that you can write "There is no proof of it being the result of intra-horn admixture" after reading what I shared above. What more proof do you need than the above examples? And I don't know what you mean by lack of Mota. Somalis have Mota ancestry, saaxiib. At minimum 5%. And the Y-DNA issue can easily be dismissed by Somalis being dominated by T-L208 and E-Z813 founder effects as a majority nomadic group that's generally prone to such founder effects.

And I'm sorry but I find it hard to believe Southern Arabians had any real genetic effect except for maybe T-L208 a long time ago. In the Middle-Ages and Early Modern era, based on numerous accounts, it is very clear Somalis were highly suspicious of ajanabis. Ajanabis would rarely, almost never, be allowed to venture into the interior and had to always have a native Abban (a guide/sponsor) even when in the coastal towns. I'm willing to bet good money this was the case during the classical era as well. So not only would it be unlikely for some ancient Yemenis to settle on our lands and have any noticeable genetic impact but try to think about the magnitude of what you're suggesting. Some southern Arabian traders were numerous enough to effect basically ALL Somalis, including the majority reer miyi? I dunno. But some ancient migrations within the Horn by fellow East Cushites or something I can actually picture.

You also need to explain to me why Somalis' Arabian admixture looks identical to what's in Xabeshas. Put in Saudis, BedouinBs, Qataris, Yemenis of all sorts and for whatever reason we always favor al-Jawf folks the same way Tigrays and Amharas and Oromos do.

Any direct genetic input from South Arabians ancestral to T-BY181210 would have obviously been before start of the Middle Ages. However, the same is not necessarily the case for all of T-L208 as it is an old haplogroup incomparable to E-Z813 with some of its subclades being introduced into Africa at different historical periods. The Rahanweyn T-CTS2214 is also an indicator that there is probably more than one T-L208 founder effect among Somalis, not as big as the Reer Waqooyi Dir one. However, Southern Somalis are underrepresented on 23andme hence we are relatively non the wiser as to how big this founder effect is among the Rahanweyn.

As for the similarity between Xabasha and Somali Arabian admixture, it is within the real of logic to assume that the Semitic population that contributed to both Somalis and Amharas could have been from the same South Arabian source population. If the hypothetical Semites that introduced Zebu cattle and camels to Somalis around 1000k years ago were of the same stock as the Semites that settled in Ethiopia, is it possible that they could be the source of the Somali Arab ancestry?

 

[Sophisticate]

23andme as its recently been is dubious. It shows questionable 0.something to 2% stuff in a lot of people both in the north and the south. It claims I am 0.something SE African/Congolese when I'm like 90% from the north and know for a fact from deeper analyses over the course of a decade that there's nothing Bantu in me. Hilariously, I'm consistently on the very upper end of MENA admixture among Somalis. I don't trust that site much. Show me your raw data and run it through stuff like G25 or Punt's ADMIX calcs and we'll talk is what I'd usually say to people. And in that regard, I'll be real here, I'm genuinely disappointed by how boring Somalis are overall. Very homogenous, as you say.

But, that being said, I see as many outliers in the north as in the south if we're going off 23andme. I just checked 23andme in fact. About 10 random relatives from Koonfur and Woqooyi (Galbeed to Bari) respectively. One genuine outlier each. Both girls with probably a great grandparent who's not Somali going off the percentages. Koonfur girl's is a Bantu and the Woqooyi girl's is a Yemeni. Everyone else is 100% Somali like you like them.

Spoiler

You don't have permission to view the spoiler content. Log in or register now.

23andme has been all too kind to me. Sorry, you inherited noise level amounts of Habeshi. I get that it's hard for you to digest not being a member of the triple-digit crew of Geeljires.

Everyone has a different list of supposed relatives on there. I do see more people with odd results nowadays. A lot less purely Somali. A while back it was mostly Somalis with at most a little Ethiopian. Now there are confusing results among some people.

 

[Shimbiris]

Any direct genetic input from South Arabians ancestral to T-BY181210 would have obviously been before start of the Middle Ages. However, the same is not necessarily the case for all of T-L208 as it is an old haplogroup incomparable to E-Z813 with some of its subclades being introduced into Africa at different historical periods. The Rahanweyn T-CTS2214 is also an indicator that there is probably more than one T-L208 founder effect among Somalis, not as big as the Reer Waqooyi Dir one. However, Southern Somalis are underrepresented on 23andme hence we are relatively non the wiser as to how big this founder effect is among the Rahanweyn.

Yes, there is older T-L208 in the Horn. It's found in pretty much every Cushitic and Ethiosemitic Horner group (check page 1) which is why we used to assume in the anthro community like 10-15 years ago that Somalis' T-L208 was very ancient and probably owed to our older pulse of MENA ancestry in the Horn. But yeah, the stuff in the north seems to be ancient Arabian and may have something to do with the spread of camel domestication and asiatic admixture in local livestock like zebu cattle admixture. The Somali word for camel is an OSA loanword by the looks of it so pre-Islamic Yemenis had a strong cultural impact on us the same way Islamic period ones did in spreading Islam, architectural influences, the Arabic script and so on.

But I'm still very much of the opinion that this is intra-Horn admixture. The models showing how it looks identical to what's in Xabashis AND how it immediately disappears the moment you introduce any highland Ethiopian group more admixed than us along with the utter lack of uniparental Arabian influences save for T-L208 should speak for itself.

 

[Shimbiris]

23andme has been all too kind to me. Sorry, you inherited noise level amounts of Habeshi. I get that it's hard for you to digest not being a member of the triple-digit crew of Geeljires.

Everyone has a different list of supposed relatives on there. I do see more people with odd results nowadays. A lot less purely Somali. A while back it was mostly Somalis with at most a little Ethiopian. Now there are confusing results among some people.

War trollingka naga jooji, walaashay. And take your croco tears elsewhere!




But I agree. I've noticed more weird result Somalis lately than before. Identity crisis-ed mixed somalis are making some sort of surge during the 2020s?

 

[The alchemist]

War trollingka naga jooji, walaashay. And take your croco tears elsewhere!




But I agree. I've noticed more weird result Somalis lately than before. Identity crisis-ed mixed somalis are making some sort of surge during the 2020s?

The woman is not trolling. She's 100% serious.

 

[anonimo]

Yes, there is older T-L208 in the Horn. It's found in pretty much every Cushitic and Ethiosemitic Horner group (check page 1) which is why we used to assume in the anthro community like 10-15 years ago that Somalis' T-L208 was very ancient and probably owed to our older pulse of MENA ancestry in the Horn. But yeah, the stuff in the north seems to be ancient Arabian and may have something to do with the spread of camel domestication and asiatic admixture in local livestock like zebu cattle admixture. The Somali word for camel is an OSA loanword by the looks of it so pre-Islamic Yemenis had a strong cultural impact on us the same way Islamic period ones did in spreading Islam, architectural influences, the Arabic script and so on.

But I'm still very much of the opinion that this is intra-Horn admixture. The models showing how it looks identical to what's in Xabashis AND how it immediately disappears the moment you introduce any highland Ethiopian group more admixed than us along with the utter lack of uniparental Arabian influences save for T-L208 should speak for itself.

Fair enough.

Was just seeking to demonstrate that these pre-Islamic Yemenis might not have been genetically that differentiated from the ancient pre-Islamic Yemenis that contributed to the Xabasha genepool.

Nonetheless, you are absolutely spot on, there is no historical evidence whatsoever of a medieval genetic input from Arabia in Maxa Tidhi Somalis apart from outliers etc.

Any direct genetic input from South Arabians ancestral to T-BY181210 would have obviously been before start of the Middle Ages. However, the same is not necessarily the case for all of T-L208 as it is an old haplogroup incomparable to E-Z813 with some of its subclades being introduced into Africa at different historical periods. The Rahanweyn T-CTS2214 is also an indicator that there is probably more than one T-L208 founder effect among Somalis, not as big as the Reer Waqooyi Dir one. However, Southern Somalis are underrepresented on 23andme hence we are relatively non the wiser as to how big this founder effect is among the Rahanweyn.

As for the similarity between Xabasha and Somali Arabian admixture, it is within the real of logic to assume that the Semitic population that contributed to both Somalis and Amharas could have been from the same South Arabian source population. If the hypothetical Semites that introduced Zebu cattle and camels to Somalis around 1000k years ago were of the same stock as the Semites that settled in Ethiopia, is it possible that they could be the source of the Somali Arab ancestry?

Edit to my previous post, meant to state roughly 1000AD.

 

[Shimbiris]

The woman is not trolling. She's 100% serious.

She is a fooless then to mock my Geeljire pedigree. 99.99% kulaha. I am 102% Somali with a 2% margin of error. My pedigree is unquestionable. I am a noble son of Cal Madow iyo Bandar Qassim and my reer abtiyo were horse-riding gangistiriin and Yahudoid boat riding merchants who have a long and storied tradition of karbaashing all their neighboring tribes either with the spear or the pen. My forehead is a fivehead, I bleed blue, white, green and red! I shit Oodkac and piss caano geel on a nightly. Let no man dare come for my authenticity.

 

[Al-Ma'mun]

It might not be common but I find it on 23andme. @Apollo and @Al-Ma'mun will back me up on this. There are some folks I didn't even know were Somali when I walked past them and they spoke some bird language. I'd need an interpreter. Somalis are quite homogenous overall (North-to-South) but you have more diversity down there and significantly more outliers relative to Somalis in other areas (even if it is limited to certain locales).

I once told a middle aged Raxanweyn habaryar in Toronto to speak to me in English or Arabic cause I had no clue what she was saying.

If she came to SL they would assume she is speaking Oromo and in a rude reer waqooyi way with all the hand movements tell her to speak Somali

 

[Nalaaye floxks]

that's correct I am ugaaslabe from Sanaag. What's interesting though is my Southern European (just 0.7%) admixture seems to be coming from my Somali side of the family not from the Ajnabi side of family because a Somali who matched me had the same admixture.

I was about to say? So you warsengali?

 

[The alchemist]

She is a fooless then to mock my Geeljire pedigree. 99.99% kulaha. I am 102% Somali with a 2% margin of error. My pedigree is unquestionable. I am a noble son of Cal Madow iyo Bandar Qassim and my reer abtiyo were horse-riding gangistiriin and Yahudoid boat riding merchants who have a long and storied tradition of karbaashing all their neighboring tribes either with the spear or the pen. My forehead is a fivehead, I bleed blue, white, green and red! I shit Oodkac and piss caano geel on a nightly. Let no man dare come for my authenticity.

Bro, you're doing too much. I could be 99.99% genetically non-Somali and dead serious be 100% Somali.

 

[Shimbiris]

Bro, you're doing too much. I could be 99.99% genetically non-Somali and dead serious be 100% Somali.

I do all that without trying. Oodkac and raw caano geel are good shit, ma nigga. Though, I must admit, I'm more of an caano lo man. Reer Koonfur in my veins leading me astray.

 

[Sophisticate]

The woman is not trolling. She's 100% serious.

You take me for a new age ethnoracial hygienist. I'm not. I'm hospitable and culturally sensitive to my fellow Horner brothers. I will cook you and @Shimbiris medium rear kifto while playing some Teddy Afro.

 

[The alchemist]

You take me for a new age ethnoracial hygienist. I'm not. I'm hospitable and culturally sensitive. I will cook you and @Shimbiris medium rear kifto while playing some Teddy Afro.

Hospitable, kulaha. I'm not a guest. I am the Somali model man, put a statue of me in a museum for a cultural and anthropology lesson.

That music resonates with Shimbiris, not me.

 

[Shimbiris]

You take me for a new age ethnoracial hygienist. I'm not. I'm hospitable and culturally sensitive to my fellow Horner brothers. I will cook you and @Shimbiris medium rear kifto while playing some Teddy Afro.

I love Kitfo. Spent the latter years of my upbringing with Xabash housekeepers who were like familia. Steak tartare is the shit too. I am thoroughly convinced this is why Xabashis are more robust than us on average. Geeljires would do well to drop the bariis iyo baasto and return to raw milk and beer geel with a smidge addition of raw hilib.




Also, this is my favorite highlander beat, thank you very much: