Italians Love Somalis and Hate Madows

[avocadopepper]

The northerners have subconsciously always had it out for them ever since they wrestled them from the Ottomans:

What Recent Greek History Reveals About the Debt Crisis

The long-troubled relationship between modern Greeks and their Western European neighbors continues to affect debt negotiations today.

www.theatlantic.com

They were expecting some cadaan looking guys talking about Philosophy and encountered some wogs eating kebabs and halloumi and their poor hearts sank. And to think even these disappointing Greeks are more Euro-admixed than the ancients.

and yet those "ugly" slavs and wogs kept a purer form of christianity than the frankish stock

 

[Shimbiris]

It's so funny, that northern europeans were heavily influenced and emulated greeks but then when they look at modern greeks they often claim they were turkified or something akin despite the fact modern greeks actually have slavic admixture, that the ancients did not and were likely more MENA-shifted than their modern counterparts

Yep. All modern Greeks have some Slavic admixture, especially on the mainland, despite already sitting as intermediates between Northern Europeans and groups like the Lebanese, Syrians and Palestinians. The Ancients we so far have pull even closer toward the latter group, much closer than they do toward the former.

Greco-Roman worship is an cadaan larp almost akin to hotepism where I'll at least give the Western Europeans a pass in that they were actually conquered by the Greco-Romans (Gaul, Britannia etc). Greek culture, genetics, and civilization was basically just an extension of the ancient Middle-East and it's really weird watching Europeans from places like Sweden, Norway and even Britain talk about the Bronze-Age civs like they had anything at all to do with that. This was the immediate world of the Mycenaeans and the people they were culturally and genetically closest to:

 

[avocadopepper]

Yep. All modern Greeks have some Slavic admixture, especially on the mainland, despite already sitting as intermediates between Northern Europeans and groups like the Lebanese, Syrians and Palestinians. The Ancients we so far have pull even closer toward the latter group, much closer than they do toward the former.

Greco-Roman worship is an cadaan larp almost akin to hotepism where I'll at least give the Western Europeans a pass in that they were actually conquered by the Greco-Romans (Gaul, Britannia etc). Greek culture, genetics, and civilization was basically just an extension of the ancient Middle-East and it's really weird watching Europeans from places like Sweden, Norway and even Britain talk about the Bronze-Age civs like they had anything at all to do with that. This was the immediate world of the Mycenaeans and the people they were culturally and genetically closest to:

do you know if ancient english and ancient greeks were less related than their modern counterparts?

 

[Doctorabdi]

Yep. All modern Greeks have some Slavic admixture, especially on the mainland, despite already sitting as intermediates between Northern Europeans and groups like the Lebanese, Syrians and Palestinians. The Ancients we so far have pull even closer toward the latter group, much closer than they do toward the former.

Greco-Roman worship is an cadaan larp almost akin to hotepism where I'll at least give the Western Europeans a pass in that they were actually conquered by the Greco-Romans (Gaul, Britannia etc). Greek culture, genetics, and civilization was basically just an extension of the ancient Middle-East and it's really weird watching Europeans from places like Sweden, Norway and even Britain talk about the Bronze-Age civs like they had anything at all to do with that. This was the immediate world of the Mycenaeans and the people they were culturally and genetically closest to:

What is even worse, is the whole kemetic thing going on at least greeks were indeed indo-europeans. The vast majority of these folks, are either caadan (of northern european stock) or african american both with little links to egypt yet worship egyptian deities it's a whole another thing truly.

Truly bizarre stuff

 

[Midas]

The northerners have subconsciously always had it out for them ever since they wrestled them from the Ottomans:

What Recent Greek History Reveals About the Debt Crisis

The long-troubled relationship between modern Greeks and their Western European neighbors continues to affect debt negotiations today.

www.theatlantic.com

They were expecting some cadaan looking guys talking about Philosophy and encountered some wogs eating kebabs and halloumi and their poor hearts sank. And to think even these disappointing Greeks are more Euro-admixed than the ancients.

Yeah they built this image of greeks in their head as these divine beings and the reality was so at odds with this image they couldn't accept these were actual greeks.

This isn't something recent either i cant remebr where i read it but even medieval Muslims didn't consider the byzantine greeks as the same as the anicnet greeks like plato and aristole and galen who they heaped praises on.

 

[Doctorabdi]

Yeah they built this image of greeks in their head as these divine beings and the reality was so at odds with this image they couldn't accept these were actual greeks.

This isn't something recent either i cant remebr where i read it but even medieval Muslims didn't consider the byzantine greeks as the same as the anicnet greeks like plato and aristole and galen who they heaped praises on.

The byzantines were considered "rum" or "roman", indeed they were greek-speaking and of the same place but their legacy is merely a continuation of the eastern roman empire.

 

[Shimbiris]

do you know if ancient english and ancient greeks were less related than their modern counterparts?

The ancient English would've been basically Celts and Anglo-Saxons who are about as north Euro leaning as their current day descendants as far as I've seen. Meanwhile Bronze and Iron-Age Greeks look even more MENA shifted than current ones; so yeah, even less close than modern Greeks and Brits.

 

[Midas]

do you know if ancient english and ancient greeks were less related than their modern counterparts?

The English didn't really exist back then. The people who speak English came from the fusion two groups angles and saxons into Anglo saxons. These guys only came to England in the 4/5th century. Before that it was all celtic speakers and romano britans who were romanized celtic speakers.

 

[The alchemist]

Public racism is a display of low people. Those are individuals who are not raised right.

 

[Midas]

Although speaking as a whole the genetic differences between Europeans are a lot smaller than people might think from their appearances. The gap between even southern Europeans and slavs is smaller than between amahras and somalis.

 

[Shimbiris]

Although speaking as a whole the genetic differences between Europeans are a lot smaller than people might think from their appearances. The gap between even southern Europeans and slavs is smaller than between amahras and somalis.

That's true for all West-Eurasia when you ignore the groups with really notable SSA ancestry. So it's deceptive to frame it like that. The thing is, SSA components are very divergent from Eurasian components due to the Eurasian bottleneck and some SSA components are also very divergent against each other so Somalis and Tigrinyas being even 5-10% different on the AEA ancestry scale exaggerates distance outputs using something like G25 or distances based on Fst.

In reality, Somalis and Tigrinyas are literally made up of exactly the same things within the last few thousand years, just in different proportions but Greeks or Italians, for example, have significant post-Neolithic MENA roots that say a Swede or a German or an Englishman simply does not. Ancestry that can make up as much as 20-50% of the Greek or Italian's roots within the last 1,000-4,000 years that is completely absent in that northern European and you can't tell based on "distance" because, again, Eurasians in general, especially West-Eurasian aren't that drifted from each other even if some of their components haven't shared roots for thousands of years.

Hence how I laid things out a while ago in @Apostle's thread:

Fst just sort of measures genetic drift which can be controlled and skewed by many factors. Two populations that only diverged maybe 5,000 years ago (a blip in human evolutionary history) can be very strongly Fst diverged if one of them went through an extreme bottleneck and they both have small population sizes. Compare any pre-historic HG groups to each other, even from the same region, and you'll maybe notice this.

It's useful but shouldn't be the only metric one consults. Recent shared ancestries, estimated time-divergences between components (possibly as high as 40kya between the majority of what's in "Nilotic" and "West-African" respectively?) should also be considered.

Two groups can be diverged as deeply as 40,000 years and register low "distance" and be diverged as recently as 1,000 and show high "distance". You make too much of distance scores over actual ancestry proportions, walaalkay. Part of why you thought those Pastoralists were identical to Somalis when they're not but more on that in my future post that's pending.

 

[Midas]

That's true for all West-Eurasia when you ignore the groups with really notable SSA ancestry. So it's deceptive to frame it like that. The thing is, SSA components are very divergent from Eurasian components due to the Eurasian bottleneck and some SSA components are also very divergent against each other so Somalis and Tigrinyas being even 5-10% different on the AEA ancestry scale exaggerates distance outputs using something like G25 or distances based on Fst.

In reality, Somalis and Tigrinyas are literally made up of exactly the same things within the last few thousand years, just in different proportions but Greeks or Italians, for example, have significant post-Neolithic MENA roots that say a Swede or a German or an Englishman simply does not. Ancestry that can make up as much as 20-50% of the Greek or Italian's roots within the last 1,000-4,000 years that is completely absent in that northern European and you can't tell based on "distance" because, again, Eurasians in general, especially West-Eurasian aren't that drift ed from each other even if some of their components haven't shared roots for thousands of years.

Hence how I laid things out a while ago in @Apostle's thread:



Two groups can be diverged as deeply as 40,000 years and register low "distance" and be diverged as recently as 1,000 and show high "distance". You make too much of distance scores over actual ancestry proportions, walaalkay. Part of why you thought those Pastoralists were identical to Somalis when they're not but more on that in my future post that's pending.

Huh I didn't know that. Do you thinks this would apply to the predynastic eygptians ?

 

[The alchemist]

Huh I didn't know that. Do you thinks this would apply to the predynastic eygptians ?

Predynastic Egyptians, as defined so loosely and yet with ill-defined barriers by Egyptologists, is a loaded term that I don't think satisfies the reality by a big margin. Several separate groups lived in the Egyptian region prior to the first dynasty. And that is a much bigger conversation than narrow.

 

[The alchemist]

Although speaking as a whole the genetic differences between Europeans are a lot smaller than people might think from their appearances. The gap between even southern Europeans and slavs is smaller than between amahras and somalis.

A Levantine is closer to an Italian than a Russian.

 

[Midas]

Predynastic Egyptians, as defined so loosely and yet with ill-defined barriers by Egyptologists, is a loaded term that I don't think satisfies the reality by a big margin. Several separate groups lived in the Egyptian region prior to the first dynasty. And that is a much bigger conversation than narrow.

I wonder when the homogenization process was complete. Since it seems that by the middle and new kingdom periods eygptians had basically become a cohesive group genetically.

 

[Shimbiris]

Huh I didn't know that. Do you thinks this would apply to the predynastic eygptians ?

Yes, don't simply go off "distance". You can share 50% ancient roots with a group and just because you have more SSA than them (sometimes a lot more) the distances will look wild.

Speaking of West-Eurasia, even David at Eurogenes often talked about this and it's well-known:



"The True Europe" genetic cluster honestly ends with Iberians. Northwestern Europeans, Iberians, Central Europeans and Northeastern Europeans; these people are essentially like Horners. A true, tight biogeographic group made up of all the same recent things in simply different proportions; Early Bronze Steppe, Anatolian Neolithic Farmer and Western Hunter-Gatherer.

Italians, Greeks and many other Balkanites break away from this cluster and pull toward the Middle-East because they have a lot of post-Bronze Age admixture from the Middle-East that brought with it haplogroups like J1, J2 and E-M35 alongside Iran-Chalcolithic ancestry that is absent among the "true European" cluster:

Med groups are basically a bridge between Europe and the Middle-East.

 

[avocadopepper]

Yes, don't simply go off "distance". You can share 50% ancient roots with a group and just because you have more SSA than them (sometimes a lot more) the distances will look wild.

Speaking of West-Eurasia, even David at Eurogenes often talked about this and it's well-known:



"The True Europe" genetic cluster honestly ends with Iberians. Northwestern Europeans, Iberians, Central Europeans and Northeastern Europeans; these people are essentially like Horners. A true, tight biogeographic group made up of all the same recent things in simply different proportions; Early Bronze Steppe, Anatolian Neolithic Farmer and Western Hunter-Gatherer.

Italians, Greeks and many other Balkanites break away from this cluster and pull toward the Middle-East because they have a lot of post-Bronze Age admixture from the Middle-East that brought with it haplogroups like J1, J2 and E-M35 alongside Iran-Chalcolithic ancestry that is absent among the "true European" cluster:

Med groups are basically a bridge between Europe and the Middle-East.

Do you have a complete chart that all the world populations; including the lesser known ones like Khoi-San, Australian Aboriginal, Oceanian, Polynesian, and such? Curious.

 

[The alchemist]

I wonder when the homogenization process was complete. Since it seems that by the middle and new kingdom periods eygptians had basically become a cohesive group genetically.

There is a complex history there that barely any know about. A lot of people yap of what they want to be true and try to close their ears of important things that will shift the paradigm. It's not just genetic but really maybe more important the roots of the political, cultural, and linguistic history, and various traditions that have a consistent directionality that expands upon another roots for much of what we consider Ancient Egyptian during the early pre and proto and early dynastic period.

 

[bohom]

@Doctorabdi @Gracias

Its a funny thread I made over a year ago but certain people taking it way too seriously by debating with each other

I take it as a compliment that someone bumped my 17 month old thread because the threads in 2025 and late 2024 have been dead

 

[Gracias]

@Doctorabdi @Gracias

Its a funny thread I made over a year ago but certain people taking it way too seriously by debating with each other

I take it as a compliment that someone bumped my 17 month old thread because the threads in 2025 and late 2024 have been dead

I don’t really care tbh, just think it’s weird that a half Italian person is saying stuff like “Italians really built up Somalia” and saying they feel conflicted when racists are saying we destroyed xamar & it was better off during colonial rule