Is Xawaash seasoning somali originally or is it Yemeni?

[anonimo]

@Shimbiris

The only one who's been truly insulting throughout this exchange is you. All I've done is flatly describe your behavior while you keep accusing me of lying, called me a snake at one point and all this other insulting stuff when, ironically, you're someone who admitted to lying to me and also trying to rile me up because I momentarily lost my cool and pretty much immediately apologized for it. Enough of this tangent, walaal. It's a waste of time and I have a life and don't want to keep going back and forth on this.

Firstly, after you stated that we had buried the hatchet, was I aggressive? Sxb, I made a simple post where I argued that the two sources refer to one and the same trip, gave you a thumbs up and said to each his own. Your reply went off on a different tangent where you began to accuse me of self-hate etc. Why is this turning out to be a broken record? Are you having some sort of Dementia episode bro cos how does burying the hatchet and then doing a 180 by hurling insults add up? If you have a life and do not want to go back and forth surely my harmless comment warranted no reply yet you felt the need to revert back to slandering me with accusations of self-hate? Acudhubillahi!

I do not recall you saying you don't care for them. All I recall is you gassing them up and describing Somalis as essentially savages and the like. All while consistently ignoring that, culturally speaking, Arabians are incredibly similar to Somalis in almost every way and were mostly better off due to their greater proximity to the Fertile Crescent. Incredibly odd stuff for an ethnic Somali to do but to each their own.

I clearly told you in the middle of our DM that you were bringing up peninsular Arabs into the discussion and only after that did I make the Somali comparison where I was the first one to state that Arabs were only more sophisticated than us because they neighboured advanced civilisations, never argued they were savage by nature. It is all in the DM. I also again emphasised in my last post that I do not give a toss about comparisons with Arabs. It is all in there man!

This comes off as shifting goal-posts, walaal. Your original position was that reer Koonfur Somalis were not at all involved in sailing and now it's that they were but it was "low-caste" type ones and not the mainstream tribes unlike in the north. We don't disagree on that and I'm glad you concede it, though.



Enough of this tangent, walaal. I mean no offense, but it comes off as though you are pulling mental gymnastics with the Reer Maanyo to not concede that your original claim that Cadcads dominated the sailing off of Koonfur is baseless. No one calls a group that is actually mixed (part Somali, Cadcad and Bantu) "Gibil-Madow". Gibil-Madow means Gibil-Madow regardless of genealogical root claims. Frankly, some of these genealogies may very well have been originally true but it is clear that these groups more heavily assimilated into Somali society and became Gibil-Madow in appearance and status elsewise they would never be classified as such. And there are small qabiils throughout Somaliweyn who claim obscure Arabian origins unlike the dominant tribes and even in their case it may have been true once upon a time yet it's clear they've heavily assimilated into Somali society and all you're liable to find is a Y-DNA that's off. The Gibil-Madow label always historically meant that they were ancestrally and physically of the core of ethnic Somali groups of the Banaadir who are distinct from the Cadcads:

I clearly took back my assumption that Gibil Cads were probably the ones engaging in sailing in the DM and here so what is there to debate regarding this? The debate here has been mainly about the Kirk source which you were denying until your previous post to this one in which you admitted I was correct. After accepting I was correct regarding the Kirk source, are you going to amend your dhow thread to reflect that the sailors docked in Mogadishu were Arab?

Sxb, I have never associated Reer Maanyo with the Gibil Cad confederation. All I have emphasised, here and in the DM, is that they are partially Somali because two of their bigger subclans have non-Somali qabil lineages. Even the Banadiri source you used in the DM regarding who the Reer Maanyo are does not contradict my statement that they were only partially Somali. Why should I or anyone else ignore the non-Somali ancestry of Ba Mukhtar and Shawesh Bin Ali found in the Reer Maanyo when it is also common knowledge that clans such as the Shaanshi, Hatimi, Qalinshube in other Gibil Madoow clans also do not belong to Somali qabil lineages?

In reality all your original beliefs shared with me go unsubstantiated. That seafaring just popped up with Somalis around the middle of the 1800s, that Isaaqs never sailed and it was just Warsangelis and Majeerteens, that seafaring wasn't widespread and commonly known across the Somali coast, that Cadcads or ajanabis were the ones solely handling all the sailing off Koonfur and more. You claimed every single of one of these things to me and you and I both know each and everyone of those claims is baseless if you go through the thread and I urge you to prove otherwise instead of trying to take jabs at me about how I'm "emotional" about the subject and you're not. Live and let live, though, truly. I pray we're done here cos I am tired of all this.

You are again engaging in slander. In the DM, I never claimed that Isaaqs never sailed. All I argued was that the Majeerten in comparison to the Isaaq and Warsangeli were the most advanced Somali sailing dynasty in recent recorded history, and that the ancestors of Somalis probably sailed as far back as the Barbaroi. This is exactly what I said:

I also made subsequent DM posts in which I stated that the Warsangeli sailed before the 19th century and referenced the story of Suldaan Cali Dableh who is reputedly one of the earliest examples of firearms being brought to Somalia from Arabia according to oral History.

I know you got a lot of shit going on in your life as you stated in one of your previous posts in this thread but don't be losing the plot. You crossed a line with your slander sxb!

 

[reer]

these two took fkd to another level. essay bay hadda qorayaan.

 

[Angelina]

It was the Jazeera and Marka Gendershe ones I was referring to.

Yes and those ones plainly look like typical Somalis. Shimbiris just showed videos of them. They look like any ethnic Somalis

Some Gendershe I have seen have an Cadcad like appearance.

The Sheekhaals have a heterogenous make-up, the Aw Qutub have Harari ancestry, and as others have pointed out to you, their y-dna is also diverse.

First time I have seen you get relatively passionate in a Qabil discussion, you married to a Sheekhaal walaal, or are you one yourself?

No comment. I ain’t revealing my qabil on here LOOL.

 

[Angelina]

I remember speaking to a reer Banaadir guy who told me this:



Most of what I've seen of the reer Gendershe and Jaziira varies from plainly looking Somali to a few looking somewhat mixed:


Link

If I recall correctly, the Italians didn't say whether they were classified as Gibil-Madow or Gibil-Cad back when they conducted their censes.

Those lot are clearly standard looking Somalis.

 

[Journey.]

I remember speaking to a reer Banaadir guy who told me this:

Yes, not all Sheekhaal are gibil cad, most are indistinguishable from regular Somalis. The "mixed minority immigrants" he highlights as being "cad" are the Banaadiri Sheekhaal and they're known to be light skinned like typical Banaadiris. They all claim descent from Sheikh Abaadir who was said to be a descendant of Abu Bakr رضي الله عنه.

Most of what I've seen of the reer Gendershe and Jaziira varies from plainly looking Somali to a few looking somewhat mixed:


Link

They do come in different shades and some look typical Somali but those are usually the ones who live among ethnic Somali tribes and intermarry with them. There are those who mainly marry among themselves and they tend to be quite fair skinned. The ones I know frequently intermarry with Somali clans and they still look light/cad cad on average.

If I recall correctly, the Italians didn't say whether they were classified as Gibil-Madow or Gibil-Cad back when they conducted their censes.

That's curious. They differ from other Banaadiri folk in that they belong to a regular Somali clan whose other members are average Somalis (and span across Somaliweyn).

 

[GemState]

Its Yemeni

 

[Hamzza]

@anonimo
I think the reason why Reer Maanyo is referred to as Gibil Madow in the old literature, is that the founding people of the confederacy were Somalis. Arab clans joined the clan at a letter stage.

Same with 'Sadex Geedi' and 'Yacquub' in Shingaani. If the founding clan of a confederacy dominated by Cadcads is Somali they will label it as Gibil Madow.

Clans inside the Yaqub confederacy:
1. Shaashi
2. Hatimi
3. Ba Fadal
4. Abdisamad
And they said this is a Gibil Madow clan.

 

[Shimbiris]

@anonimo
I think the reason why Reer Maanyo is referred to as Gibil Madow in the old literature, is that the founding people of the confederacy were Somalis. Arab clans joined the clan at a letter stage.
View attachment 239157
Same with 'Sadex Geedi' and 'Yacquub' in Shingaani. If the founding clan of a confederacy dominated by Cadcads is Somali they will label it as Gibil Madow.
View attachment 239159
Clans inside the Yaqub confederacy:
1. Shaashi
2. Hatimi
3. Ba Fadal
4. Abdisamad
And they said this is a Gibil Madow clan.

You're getting things mixed up. "Yaqub" in the Italian censes is a Hawiye subtribe who were apparently the politically dominant tribe of Xamar since around the 1600s which is why the Italians give them 6 pages of exposition in their census where they make it clear that they're purely Hawiye and Gibil-Madow whereas all the other Xamar tribes don't get more than a quarter or half a page:



They plainly separate the proper Hawiye Yaqub from Cadcads like the Shaashi in their census as Gibil-Madow and Gibil-Cad respectively and you will not find it written anywhere that an actually mixed tribe is called Gibil-Madow just because their founders were apparently GM. GM means GM, akhi. It plainly referred to looks and origins. No one was running around using it to describe people who looked Cadcad.

Nor do dark - skinned and Gibilcad normally eat in one anothers ' houses , nor in general mix much socially. The Gibilcad , along with all the light - skinned groups of Arab descent in Somalia , suffered particularly badly in the civil war... - source

 

[alien]

@nicki minaj if youre going to qashin me, bring evidence as to how i am wrong

 

[nicki minaj]

@nicki minaj if youre going to qashin me, bring evidence as to how i am wrong

You first? Everyone in this thread been giving me qashins yet not a single person can debunk me. Somalis don’t produce diracs, theres no factories no nothing lmao we don’t even export this stuff. It’s a clothing we simply implemented into our culture, like many other things (which is not a bad thing). Those photos prove absolutely nothing, why even bother trying to link them to modern diracs when its clear there is no connection? Nobody credits Somalis, there are non-Somali and non-Yemeni communities who also wear this type of clothing too and don’t credit or get it from Somalis either. I’m supposedly a self-hater because I’m not trying to claim obvious foreign imported clothing? Naga amuus beeeetch.

 

[Man with a garuun]

Aren’t Banadir Sheekhaal different from the Sheekhaal spread over Somaliweyn and Oromia? I think it was @anonimo in one thread he was mentioning the walanweyn Sheekhaal are cadcads and don’t have any relations to the Sheekhaal who claim to descend from Aw Abadir

The Sheekhaal Gendershe (a town in Lower Shabeele region) claimed to have their origins in Iran (Persia) and came to Somalia spreading Islam.

 

[Man with a garuun]

I've always known Xawaash the seasoning mix to be a somali thing but recently I found out that Yemenis have an almost identical spice mix called Hawa'ij. I'm curious as to whether we adopted it from them or not. What do y'all think?

The answer to your question lies if we grow the plants that those spices were made out of and if ewe process them and then produce those spices that we call Xawaash in Somali. If we don't do it, then obviously we import it. My understanding is they originated from different places. For instance, Geed Aadari has its origins in the Horn, but other spices may have been imported from overseas.

 

[Man with a garuun]

What is this nonsense? @anonimo @Hamzaa @Shimbiris. I clicked on the link you lot were looking and fighting over.

View attachment 239048

Why would Sheikhal be classified as Gibil Caad when they’re ethnic Somalis you’ll even find in Ethiopia?

The light-skinned Sheekhaal in Gandershe and Mogadishu traced their lineage to different parts in the Middle East. So at some point in the past, Sheekhaal clan was a confederation for people who were religious scholars and who spread Islam throughout the Horn.

 

[Shimbiris]

@anonimo

Apologies for the absurdly late reply, a lot to handle offline.

Firstly, after you stated that we had buried the hatchet, was I aggressive? Sxb, I made a simple post where I argued that the two sources refer to one and the same trip, gave you a thumbs up and said to each his own. Your reply went off on a different tangent where you began to accuse me of self-hate etc. Why is this turning out to be a broken record? Are you having some sort of Dementia episode bro cos how does burying the hatchet and then doing a 180 by hurling insults add up? If you have a life and do not want to go back and forth surely my harmless comment warranted no reply yet you felt the need to revert back to slandering me with accusations of self-hate? Acudhubillahi!

While I do apologize for describing the way you up-jump Arabs as "cooning" for them, stating that you fawn over them and yus your own ethnic group in comparison, in and of itself, is not tantamount to insulting you. It's plainly describing your behavior. Otherwise, it's more than a little off to read all this from someone who accused me of lying when I didn't, referred to me as a snake and openly admits to trying to rile me up and being deliberately insulting. Not to mention, if my memory serves me well, has yet to apologize for any of this. But whatever, wallahi.

I clearly took back my assumption that Gibil Cads were probably the ones engaging in sailing in the DM and here so what is there to debate regarding this? The debate here has been mainly about the Kirk source which you were denying until your previous post to this one in which you admitted I was correct. After accepting I was correct regarding the Kirk source, are you going to amend your dhow thread to reflect that the sailors docked in Mogadishu were Arab?

I'm not 100% sure it's the same voyage he's talking about. Like I said, there is a marked difference in that in mine he describes 2 different fleets of native vessels exporting native grain whereas in yours he does not call the singular fleet at Xamar "native" but calls the grain native. Weird difference and it is all dated differently. Why call Arab ships native? And we know through the It's suspect but I'll reread it all several times and make sure. I am totally willing to concede I got that mixed up and will put in an amendment in the thread if so.

That being said, you were basically trying to argue that reer Koonfur Somalis did not sail at all at the start of our exchanges. It seems as though you shift goalposts a lot, walaal. If you can't prove that they didn't sail then Reer Maanyo must be part Cadcad at least, if you can't prove that then you resign yourself to saying "Well, the sailor Koonfur Somalis were low-caste anyway and not mainstream Somalis..." it just smells of an inability to fully concede you got it wrong but to each his own.

And I'll say this for the final time; having ajanabi genealogical traditions ≠ being Cadcad or non-Somali in any real sense. It was a traditionally Gibil-Madow group meaning the folk within it looked indistinguishable from other Somalis and reer Banaadir were very strict about observing this difference. They would not be called such if they were genuinely, noticeably mixed. Thus if there was a real originally ajanabi origin for some of their subgroups it would have been comparable to the Carab Saalax in the northeast. I implore you to find me where the source I shared or anyone shared says they were partially Cadcad or not basically normal looking Somalis. If not, let us end this tangent here as well.

You are again engaging in slander. In the DM, I never claimed that Isaaqs never sailed. All I argued was that the Majeerten in comparison to the Isaaq and Warsangeli were the most advanced Somali sailing dynasty in recent recorded history, and that the ancestors of Somalis probably sailed as far back as the Barbaroi. This is exactly what I said:

Walaal, feel free to share the rest of the chat if you want if it's still available for you. It was sadly deleted for me. You and I both know that when I pointed out that Isaaq sailors existed you questioned the notion and even, as far as I recall, all but shooed away the source I showed you showing that Warsangelis in the mid 1800s recalled a past of competing with Isaaq sailors. To be honest, that's partly why there's a whole section on Isaaq sailors in my thread. I became curious and wanted to prove or disprove the notion that they sailed and they clearly did, though admittedly not at the level of the Warsangeli and the Majeerteen at least for a time. I am not slandering you in this in the least and don't appreciate the accusation but khaliwali.



That all being addressed, this is all water under the bridge for me and cafis. Not trying to stir up more back and forth between us. Just didn't want you thinking I rudely ignored you. Was simply very busy and still am.

 

[anonimo]

@Shimbiris

Apologies for the absurdly late reply, a lot to handle offline.



While I do apologize for describing the way you up-jump Arabs as "cooning" for them, stating that you fawn over them and yus your own ethnic group in comparison, in and of itself, is not tantamount to insulting you. It's plainly describing your behavior

I did not expect a reply after you pushed the boat out too far when you lied about my DM statements regarding the practice of seafaring by Northern Somali clans, and Somalis in general before 1800. You also made it plain that your previous post was the last reply so why not let sleeping dogs lie?

I have not at any point jumped up for Arabs. Anyone searching my post history on Somalispot will be hard-pressed to find me glorifying Arabs. Most of the posts I have made regarding Arabs relate to DNA threads, not their culture or civilisation. A simple search of my posts on Somalispot will demonstrate this. Even in this thread, I have been measured in my assessment of how the Yemenis were influenced by those East of them, and are only more culturally expansive than us due to their richer maritime history.

Otherwise, it's more than a little off to read all this from someone who accused me of lying when I didn't, referred to me as a snake and openly admits to trying to rile me up and being deliberately insulting. Not to mention, if my memory serves me well, has yet to apologize for any of this. But whatever, wallahi.

Why do you continue banging on about shit that was settled posts ago? Why do you still continue with the lamentation when you already stated that the hatchet had been buried? We are not Naago, ain't no point in moving like a nagging housewife who keeps bringing up past drama. Please, no more unnecessary drama.

I'm not 100% sure it's the same voyage he's talking about. Like I said, there is a marked difference in that in mine he describes 2 different fleets of native vessels exporting native grain whereas in yours he does not call the singular fleet at Xamar "native" but calls the grain native. Weird difference and it is all dated differently. Why call Arab ships native? And we know through the It's suspect but I'll reread it all several times and make sure. I am totally willing to concede I got that mixed up and will put in an amendment in the thread if so.

I am not going to be a broken record.

Like I said before, do as you please with your thread, nowt to do with me.

That being said, you were basically trying to argue that reer Koonfur Somalis did not sail at all at the start of our exchanges. It seems as though you shift goalposts a lot, walaal. If you can't prove that they didn't sail then Reer Maanyo must be part Cadcad at least, if you can't prove that then you resign yourself to saying "Well, the sailor Koonfur Somalis were low-caste anyway and not mainstream Somalis..." it just smells of an inability to fully concede you got it wrong but to each his own.

Another broken record post, did I not concede that there are ethnic Southern Somali sailors? What more is there to add?

As for ethnic Somali sailors in the South, I have in this thread, and in the DM accepted that there are ethnic Southern Somalis sailors in the Reer Maanyo heterogenous confederacy. The only thing I added was that these Somalis are not representative of Southern Somali culture because mainstream Southern clans considered those lived off the sea as being outside the norms of respectable Somali society. You are very well familiar with the Jaaji ostracisation.

And I'll say this for the final time; having ajanabi genealogical traditions ≠ being Cadcad or non-Somali in any real sense. It was a traditionally Gibil-Madow group meaning the folk within it looked indistinguishable from other Somalis and reer Banaadir were very strict about observing this difference. They would not be called such if they were genuinely, noticeably mixed. Thus if there was a real originally ajanabi origin for some of their subgroups it would have been comparable to the Carab Saalax in the northeast. I implore you to find me where the source I shared or anyone shared says they were partially Cadcad or not basically normal looking Somalis. If not, let us end this tangent here as well.

I do not know if you lack critical reading skills or are obtuse. This is what I have argued:

As for the Reer Maanyo, I never stated that they came under the Gibil Cad categorisation. I stated that only certain clans within them belong to mainstream Somali Qabils, the rest have non-Somali origins. This is something that is confirmed in your own blog reference. Unlike the draudulent Somali connections to the Prophet SAWS, the Ba Mukhtar and Shawesh Bin Ali etc. are not claiming some fanciful ancestry but obscure Arabian lineages. What Arab claiming Somali uses the Hadhrami 'Ba' or has a name like Shawesh? Why should we doubt their own lineage when Reer Maanyo clans who are Somali in origin clearly identify with their roots such as the Garre Reer Cumar and Surre Reer Caafi etc. whilst they do not? Moreover, just because someone is in the Gibil Madoow confederacy does not necessarily mean they descend from Somali Qabils. Your own blog source demonstrates how the Shaanshi and Qalinshube in Dhabarweyne do not hail from Somali Qabil lineages. Similarly, the Xatimi in the Iskashato are also not of Somali Qabil lineages.

Where have I stated that Gibil Madoow are necessarily Cadcad? I have consistently argued that the Gibil Madoow category includes groups who have non-Somali qabil ancestry, no points were made in relation to their appearance

Nonetheless, the Hatimi in the Iskashato and Shaanshi who are grouped respectively with the Gibil Madoow Iskashato and Dhabarweyne groups in Mogadishu do not necessarily resemble your average Somali. Many clearly do not!


According to your own Banadiri source, the Shaanshi are originally Farsis:

Dhabarweyne oo ah qabiil ku abtisado asal ahaan somali Laakiin waxa ku mideysan oo ay wadaagaan magacas Shaanshi oo asalkeeda ah Persian,iyo Qalinshube oo ah dadka ku caan baxay sameynta Dahabka iyo Qalinka oo asal ahaan ka soo jeedo Carab.​

Qabaa’ilada Banaadiriga

Sidan ku soo sheegnay Qoraalkeenii hore Banaadiriga waa dad wadaaga Diin dhaqan iyo deegaan, waa dad ka Kooban qabaa’ilo kala duwan, qaar waxay ka soo jeedan Carab,Perisian iyo kuwa ku abtirs…

banaadiriblog.wordpress.com

You and I both know that when I pointed out that Isaaq sailors existed you questioned the notion and even, as far as I recall, all but shooed away the source I showed you showing that Warsangelis in the mid 1800s recalled a past of competing with Isaaq sailors. To be honest, that's partly why there's a whole section on Isaaq sailors in my thread. I became curious and wanted to prove or disprove the notion that they sailed and they clearly did, though admittedly not at the level of the Warsangeli and the Majeerteen at least for a time. I am not slandering you in this in the least and don't appreciate the accusation but khaliwali.

You are again making false statements about me. That screenshot was my first reply in the DM, it clearly evinces how I did not single out Isaaq, and that my main argument was that the Isaaq and Warsangeli do not compare to the 19th century seafaring exploits of the Majeerten. I knew about Isaaqs sailing well before you even mentioned them in your Dhow thread. For instance, in 2020, I referenced the fact that Xaji Sharmake of Zeila was a 19th century dhow captain before he assumed control of Zeila in the following thread so where do you get the slanderous idea that I made a claim about Isaaqs not sailing when there is historical evidence of Isaaq sailors such as Captain Haji Sharmake?

As for Haji Sharmarke, he was not the genealogical authority figure you claim. H.S started his career as the Captain of a Dhow who ingratiated himself with the British. I agree that he was a charismatic, ingenious fellow but he was just a warlord figure who employed foreign gunmen and canons to control the trading port of Zeila. H.S did not also have authority beyond the town’s wall as demonstrated by the fact that an Ciise nomad killed his son in cold blood in Zeila town and all he did was accept blood payment in lieu of his son’s life. The fact that he died an inglorious death after overreaching his authority by killing Henri Lambert also illuminates how he was a disposable pawn for the Powers that competed for control of the Somali Northern Coast. The Turks handed him over to the French and he died a prisoner on a French transport ship.

https://www.somalispot.com/threads/t-y45591-migration-into-the-horn-of-africa.94596/page-5

 

[Basra]

I would say since Yemenis are older than Somalis- it comes from Yemen

 

[Shimbiris]

I did not expect a reply after you pushed the boat out too far when you lied about my DM statements regarding the practice of seafaring by Northern Somali clans, and Somalis in general before 1800. You also made it plain that your previous post was the last reply so why not let sleeping dogs lie?

Listen to me because I am getting quite tired of all this. I swear on my aabo and hooyo's names and Allah himself that I have never at any point lied to you, tried to mislead you or played any games with you. I am a grown man with a life and I don't have the time or energy for such nonsense and I am getting quite tired of all these jumpy accusations and insults you have not apologized for once like a man while you bleat constantly that I am the one disrespecting you when I only got snippy with you once in all our exchanges and immediately apologized for it. You are the one who openly admitted to me that you lied to me, that you tried to rile me up on purpose more than once and even called me a snake while even now accusing me of lying and now you want to play victim? This is ridiculous beyond belief.

I also remember our conversation well and I do recall you seemingly waving off the idea that Isaaqs were sailors which is why there's a whole section in my thread about them. I did not make that up. You are welcome to prove me wrong and share the rest of the conversation.

I have not at any point jumped up for Arabs. Anyone searching my post history on Somalispot will be hard-pressed to find me glorifying Arabs. Most of the posts I have made regarding Arabs relate to DNA threads, not their culture or civilisation. A simple search of my posts on Somalispot will demonstrate this. Even in this thread, I have been measured in my assessment of how the Yemenis were influenced by those East of them, and are only more culturally expansive than us due to their richer maritime history.

Don't play about with me, walaal. You very plainly did during our conversation and very plainly harshly yuss-ed Somalis and other Horners in comparison in a way that wasn't normal or fair. You didn't simply say "Yes, yes they were better at this and this cos they're closer to the fertile crescent." but plainly spoke like Somalis were savages and inherently somehow inferior "They didn't have it in them" was a phrase I plainly remember. And you even admitted later to speaking in those sorts of ways to "rile me up" and now you want to pretend you didn't and have always been measured? Spare me, walaal.

Nonetheless, the Hatimi in the Iskashato and Shaanshi who are grouped respectively with the Gibil Madoow Iskashato and Dhabarweyne groups in Mogadishu do not necessarily resemble your average Somali. Many clearly do not!

No one anywhere groups Cadcads with Gibil-Madow tribes or considers them a section of a Gibil-Madow tribe. These groups were firmly separate and did not so much as eat together in the times before modernization; something I have sourced and shown you. Even the Italians clearly separate who is who in the description section for each tribe of their censes as well as in the population numberings in the censes. There is only the very occasional case of something like counting the Dhabarweyne and Shaanshi, if I recall correctly right now, together in the census numbers, while firmly separating them in the description section, where we all just ignored such collations anyway and the Madows were still much more numerous in Xamar. But this is a totally non-sequitur tangent and irrelevant. I'll leave it be there and hope you do as well.

Nonetheless, the Hatimi in the Iskashato and Shaanshi who are grouped respectively with the Gibil Madoow Iskashato and Dhabarweyne groups in Mogadishu do not necessarily resemble your average Somali. Many clearly do not!


According to your own Banadiri source, the Shaanshi are originally Farsis:

...What is this? You accuse me of lacking critical reading skills or being obtuse then go off on the strangest of straw-man tangents I've seen in a good while?

Listen, the point you were constantly trying to make originally was clearly that the Reer Maanyo are somehow mixed because they have some ajanabi genealogical claims. You were plainly trying to imply there were Cadcads in their midst and that they were not purely Somali like other Gibil-Madows. If not, what was even the point in pointing that stuff about their genealogies out? You just felt like telling me that some of them have non-Somali genealogies? Something I already knew? Why? Does it make them ajanabi? If they look Somali, speak Somali, are regarded as normal Somalis by other Somalis and themselves ("Gibil-Madow") and are probably like 90%+ Somali genetically then what the heck do the genealogies matter, man? Why would you emphasize that if not to imply they were mixed and part Cadcad or "foreign"?

And that point is simply moot. It is not true and has never historically been true. They were Gibil-Madow, as in physically indistinguishable from other Somalis, plain as day and there is not a single source I have ever seen that claims otherwise, and I already explained to you that having ajanabi geneaologies ≠ being Cadcad. To try and imply such is to be desperate to not admit that there was nothing Cadcad about the Reer Maanyo historically.

I don't even get why the Shaanshi or whatever other Cadcad group are relevant here. They have nothing to do with the Reer Maanyo beyond being fellow Banaadiri tribes. Where are you taking me, walaal? Enough with this. Either prove there was something Cadcad or genuinely non-Somali about the Reer Maanyo in a manner more than lets say the Carab Saalax or naga dhaaf. Tangentkan waa waste of time otherwise, akhi, and if I somehow misunderstood you and you were never making the point that they were "mixed" somehow then khalas then too; apologies and lets move on.

You are again making false statements about me. That screenshot was my first reply in the DM, it clearly evinces how I did not single out Isaaq, and that my main argument was that the Isaaq and Warsangeli do not compare to the 19th century seafaring exploits of the Majeerten. I knew about Isaaqs sailing well before you even mentioned them in your Dhow thread. For instance, in 2020, I referenced the fact that Xaji Sharmake of Zeila was a 19th century dhow captain before he assumed control of Zeila in the following thread so where do you get the slanderous idea that I made a claim about Isaaqs not sailing when there is historical evidence of Isaaq sailors such as Captain Haji Sharmake?

As I said earlier, I don't have the chat anymore but it seems you do so please share our conversation after that initial message. You can share it in its entirety. I don't mind. I quite recall you waving off the idea of Isaaq sailors. And my actions have been consistent with that in that I made a whole post about Isaaq sailors because you seemed dismissive about them even existing even after I pointed out that quote regarding the Warsangeli. If there was some misunderstanding on my part there then very well and I apologize but I plainly recall that and I am not lying. Stop being being so out of control with all the accussations and underhanded comments, man. You keep accussing me of being like a "naag" when you're the one constantly getting all dramatic with accussations of lying and hurling insults and it's just insane, walaal. Cadhi iska dhig.

Anyway, all of this aside, cafis and salam if you choose not to reply after this.

 

[anonimo]

Listen to me because I am getting quite tired of all this. I swear on my aabo and hooyo's names and Allah himself that I have never at any point lied to you, tried to mislead you or played any games with you. I am a grown man with a life and I don't have the time or energy for such nonsense and I am getting quite tired of all these jumpy accusations and insults you have not apologized for once like a man while you bleat constantly that I am the one disrespecting you when I only got snippy with you once in all our exchanges and immediately apologized for it. You are the one who openly admitted to me that you lied to me, that you tried to rile me up on purpose more than once and even called me a snake while even now accusing me of lying and now you want to play victim? This is ridiculous beyond belief.

Enough with the melodrama. In the last two posts, I never said you lied to me, I said you lied about my DM statements as evident in the DM screenshot posted highlighting how I never claimed that 'Somalis did not sail before 1800', or only 'Warsangeli and Majeerten sailed'. Were you not chatting bullshit by making that claim? I don't know you for real sxb, you don't me know either so there is no need to reference your personal circumstance, making an oath on your Hooyo and Aabo's life or talk of an apology etc. Shit ain't that deep!

Don't play about with me, walaal. You very plainly did during our conversation and very plainly harshly yuss-ed Somalis and other Horners in comparison in a way that wasn't normal or fair. You didn't simply say "Yes, yes they were better at this and this cos they're closer to the fertile crescent." but plainly spoke like Somalis were savages and inherently somehow inferior "They didn't have it in them" was a phrase I plainly remember. And you even admitted later to speaking in those sorts of ways to "rile me up" and now you want to pretend you didn't and have always been measured? Spare me, walaal.

This is what I stated when making a comparison between Somalis and Arabs:

Where did I sate that they were inherently inferior? The only thing I am guilty of is winding up your nationalist sentiments after you threw daggers at me by ramming my point home with the 'pagan Oromo' analogy and 'leather' reference.

No one anywhere groups Cadcads with Gibil-Madow tribes or considers them a section of a Gibil-Madow tribe. These groups were firmly separate and did not so much as eat together in the times before modernization; something I have sourced and shown you. Even the Italians clearly separate who is who in the description section for each tribe of their censes as well as in the population numberings in the censes. There is only the very occasional case of something like counting the Dhabarweyne and Shaanshi, if I recall correctly right now, together in the census numbers, while firmly separating them in the description section, where we all just ignored such collations anyway and the Madows were still much more numerous in Xamar. But this is a totally non-sequitur tangent and irrelevant. I'll leave it be there and hope you do as well.



...What is this? You accuse me of lacking critical reading skills or being obtuse then go off on the strangest of straw-man tangents I've seen in a good while?

Listen, the point you were constantly trying to make originally was clearly that the Reer Maanyo are somehow mixed because they have some ajanabi genealogical claims. You were plainly trying to imply there were Cadcads in their midst and that they were not purely Somali like other Gibil-Madows. If not, what was even the point in pointing that stuff about their genealogies out? You just felt like telling me that some of them have non-Somali genealogies? Something I already knew? Why? Does it make them ajanabi? If they look Somali, speak Somali, are regarded as normal Somalis by other Somalis and themselves ("Gibil-Madow") and are probably like 90%+ Somali genetically then what the heck do the genealogies matter, man? Why would you emphasize that if not to imply they were mixed and part Cadcad or "foreign"?

And that point is simply moot. It is not true and has never historically been true. They were Gibil-Madow, as in physically indistinguishable from other Somalis, plain as day and there is not a single source I have ever seen that claims otherwise, and I already explained to you that having ajanabi geneaologies ≠ being Cadcad. To try and imply such is to be desperate to not admit that there was nothing Cadcad about the Reer Maanyo historically.

I don't even get why the Shaanshi or whatever other Cadcad group are relevant here. They have nothing to do with the Reer Maanyo beyond being fellow Banaadiri tribes. Where are you taking me, walaal? Enough with this. Either prove there was something Cadcad or genuinely non-Somali about the Reer Maanyo in a manner more than lets say the Carab Saalax or naga dhaaf. Tangentkan waa waste of time otherwise, akhi, and if I somehow misunderstood you and you were never making the point that they were "mixed" somehow then khalas then too; apologies and lets move on.

Spare me your essay. I am not going to be a broken record, have I ever stated that Reer Maanyo were grouped with Cadcad? Provide evidence or stop going round in circles and typing gibberish. All I have done is state the obvious that they are a heterogeneous non-representative Southern outcast group who were ostracised from mainstream Southern Somali society because they earned their living from the sea.

As I said earlier, I don't have the chat anymore but it seems you do so please share our conversation after that initial message. You can share it in its entirety. I don't mind. I quite recall you waving off the idea of Isaaq sailors. And my actions have been consistent with that in that I made a whole post about Isaaq sailors because you seemed dismissive about them even existing even after I pointed out that quote regarding the Warsangeli. If there was some misunderstanding on my part there then very well and I apologize but I plainly recall that and I am not lying. Stop being being so out of control with all the accussations and underhanded comments, man. You keep accussing me of being like a "naag" when you're the one constantly getting all dramatic with accussations of lying and hurling insults and it's just insane, walaal. Cadhi iska dhig.

Like I said, I called you a liar in the last two posts because you bullshitted about my DM posts, nothing personal, just calling a spade a spade.

My first post in the DM which I have previously posted associated all three clans with sailing. The only time I mentioned Isaaq in the DM again was when I made it plain that I was talking about Warsangeli when referencing oral history about them being sailing pioneers. The following are the exchanges pertaining to this:

Your memory has failed you again.

 

[Shimbiris]

@anonimo

My bad, waryaa. I didn't even get notified of this reply of yours.

Enough with the melodrama. In the last two posts, I never said you lied to me, I said you lied about my DM statements as evident in the DM screenshot posted highlighting how I never claimed that 'Somalis did not sail before 1800', or only 'Warsangeli and Majeerten sailed'. Were you not chatting bullshit by making that claim? I don't know you for real sxb, you don't me know either so there is no need to reference your personal circumstance, making an oath on your Hooyo and Aabo's life or talk of an apology etc. Shit ain't that deep!

Walaal, I gave you my word that I'm not playing any games with you here. Believe it, mock it, don't believe it... that's your business but from this point on any accusatory and antagonsitic writings from you will be left alone by me. I've said all I will on such matters and I'm starting to get the impression you're just trolling and trying to rile me up.

This is what I stated when making a comparison between Somalis and Arabs:

It's neither here nor there at this point but that comparison still perplexes me. I mean there is an exact parallel between Somali and Arabian culture in respect to the Xadhar and the Bedu which is plainly the Somali concept of the Reer Magaal and the Reer Miyi where, ironically enough, the Arabic loan sometimes found in Af-Soomaali in this case is present in respect to the rural term as Reer Baadiyo. Read any book on early modern Somalia and Arabia and the parallels in terms of social divide and lifestyle are abundant:

Across the empty deserts of Arabia roamed the Bedu—nomads with no fixed
location or political loyalty beyond those of their tribe, clan, and family. They lived off
their camel herds. In summer, when temperatures reached 120 degrees (50 degrees
celsius) and grass withered, they could be found camped by deep, permanent wells or
at trading centers where they exchanged livestock, wool, butter, and cheese for dates,
grain, bullets, tobacco, and coffee.2 In winter, when the grass grew lush from the autumn
rains, they could be anywhere. - Vision or Mirage: Saudi Arabia at the Crossroads

...

On the 24th of November I had an opportunity of seeing what a timid people are these Somal of the towns, who, as has been well remarked, are, like the settled Arabs, the worst specimens of their race. - First Footsteps in East Africa


Not to mention the nearly copy-pasted tradition of leaving crafts to out-caste tribes and sometimes also ajanabis. But that is neither here nor there and let's not derail this thread any further.

Where did I sate that they were inherently inferior? The only thing I am guilty of is winding up your nationalist sentiments after you threw daggers at me by ramming my point home with the 'pagan Oromo' analogy and 'leather' reference.

Walaal, naga dhaaf. You and I both know what you said about Somalis and also our neighbors and you're plainly admitting you said those offensive things to rile me up.



As for me, not speaking ill of my own folk is not "nationalist". Perhaps I have misjudged you but I am willing to wager that between the two of us you would be more uncomfortable than I would be if 80% of Somalia became ajanabis. I genuinely would not care, having grown up in cosmopolitan Dubai and Sharjah; just so long as Somalis aren't marginalized and the deen and dhaqan remain intact. 80% of our peninsula could be Indians and Oromos for all it matters to me. I am not some rabid revisionist nationalist and bin adan waa bin adan to me, walaalkiis but believe whatever you wish.

You also spoke wrongly of me in claiming I said most of Marko was Gibil Madow. All I said was that the rulers were GM (they were) and that about half of the town's population was too (indeed it was). You then used this as some platform to imply my whole thread, which is well sourced and you are welcome to refute those sources, is some sort of exercise in deception which was pretty offensive, honestly, which is why I'm routinely confused at how you act so offended when you've insulted me at every turn but that is again neither here nor there and I'm getting the sense you just wanna rile me up and are somewhat being tongue in cheek so it's all good.

Spare me your essay. I am not going to be a broken record, have I ever stated that Reer Maanyo were grouped with Cadcad? Provide evidence or stop going round in circles and typing gibberish. All I have done is state the obvious that they are a heterogeneous non-representative Southern outcast group who were ostracised from mainstream Southern Somali society because they earned their living from the sea.

If you do not hold the view that they were part Cad-Cad or ajanabi in any manner more than say the Carab Saalax then alright. Guess I misunderstood you. I feel more like you are back pedaling but if I did indeed misunderstand then apologies. As for the rest, we honestly don't know. A member posted, for example, in my Dhow thread that his own awoowe or something like that used to be a sailor or owned boats or something and that guy was not Reer Maanyo. There is no way of knowing if the other tribes, especially those GM and GC tribes that were engaged in merchantry, didn't have boats or indulge in sailing. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence and the ubiquitousness of seafaring in the north where even in the first 3 decades of the 1800s they're going to Massawa, Jeddah, Yemen and Zanzibar and it seems present throughout the 1800s from Jabuuti to the northeast among everything from Cisses to MJs- :

-strongly implies it may have been known to mainstream Koonfur tribes as well but who knows.

My first post in the DM which I have previously posted associated all three clans with sailing. The only time I mentioned Isaaq in the DM again was when I made it plain that I was talking about Warsangeli when referencing oral history about them being sailing pioneers. The following are the exchanges pertaining to this:





View attachment 242044
View attachment 242045

Your memory has failed you again.

It seems it may have not or been more that we misunderstood each other. You are saying you never denied Isaaqs were sailors but I did get that impression somehow from our exchanges but I see I misunderstood and apologize. Though I will say that the Warsangeli were pioneers is indeed an unsubstantiated leap. Nowhere is this implied even by Speke who spoke to them about their sailing and no one says anywhere that the Somalis being mentioned as sailing from the first the decade of the 1800s until the Cismaan Maxamuud really take off were at all pioneers. It truly just looks like one walks in on a practice that was going on for quite some time before that but you can hold whatever view you wish on this, walaal. I will not however disagree that we were probably outstripped at sea during most eras by Arabs and Indians who outnumbered us anyway.

Let us leave it at that and not derail this thread further.

Like I said, I called you a liar in the last two posts because you bullshitted about my DM posts, nothing personal, just calling a spade a spade.

^ The reaction you were looking for, you slippery nigga.



I've said all I will on me lying to you and you are free to share the entire chat with no cuts and I hope my recent in good fun replies to you show I harbor no ill-will.

 

[Danakiil]

It’s somali. Just because we share some things with other ethnic groups does not mean that it’s not ours. there’s hundreds of things that are shared within many different groups and it seems like we are the only ones who want to give credit to the other group, as if we were animals that didn’t eat, that didn’t have clothes, that didn’t have anything that other humans all have their variations of. Other people get inspired by us too so please stop this behavior.