I’ll be joining the passport bro movement

[Angelina]

I'm confused, walaalkay. What did you generally assume nomad and farmer women did in the miyi? Most of Somali is arid to semi-arid. Vast expanses similar to this or even far more arid than this in many cases:



There were no free rides in such an environment. The women generally tended to the smaller livestock like the goats and sheep, gathered materials for the traditional dome shaped mat-tents while being solely responsible for their erection, fed and generally educated the ilmo in their dhaqan, prepared meals and did all kinds of other stuff like churning butter, grinding grain or generally worked the fields if they were settled farmers like my own great ayeeyo of the Macalin Weyn Raxanweyn. Somali niman and naago were a team. The men conversely tended to handle the larger livestock, any defense or raiding, business dealings in the tuulo or magaalo, teaching the boys their work and so on...

Somalis were also, historically speaking, not necessarily like our distant relatives in the Peninsula when it came to women. Lots of ajanabi travellers, such as Burton whom Angelina and I recently discussed, tended to note that women enjoyed a certain assertiveness and deference within Somali society even before modernization that was not as seen in parts of Asia like Arabia or South Asia. For example, even the Sayyid Mohamed Abdullah Hassan allowed three of his wives to lead divisions within his army:





The Brits called her a "She-Wolf". Kkkkkkk.

Don’t be confused. In the age of TikTok and redpill taking over, many men even from pastoralist and Nomadic heritage are of the opinion that our female ancestors lived the life of an American 1950s trad wife. It neatly fits into their anti-women working agenda, despite the fact that average everyday women of the past always worked, what is new in this current day and age is the sheer opportunities and better pay.


What is even more worrying is that you’re getting this low self esteem ‘trad’ wives running around on social media lamenting that women’s rights has made it harder for them because they now (supposedly) can’t live their fantasy of a 1950s style husband who will fully provide whilst they lounge around at home. Stupid.

What I find worrying though is that a lot of Islamic speakers/students of knowledge have been regurgitating that as well. I just wish people actually did research before coming up with ‘gotcha’ points.

 

[Thebluesomali]

Definitely looking for muslim wife. Preferably somali, Im looking in Somalia and neighboring countries. Using muzmatch, so many girls to choose from, now I just have to be careful.

If you are going to Somalia you don't even need an app. You will easily find a wife. One of my cousins went back looking for marriage and he said his family brought him 10 girls to choose from before he picked his wife. They even did the wedding there.

 

[World]

@Angelina @Dualke

Both of you are right.

Women were first employed in the settings we now recognise as factories and in some cases made up the majority of workers along with children. They worked on textiles using machines powdered by water and steam. Women and children were cheaper to employ than men. However, these were children and young girls and they would leave when they got married. Also in the 1900s, it was rare for a middle class woman to enter the workforce at all. Having children was a burden and women had them at a young age so would exit the workforce at childbirth. Married woman with children were not working in textile factories during the industrial revolution.

 

[Angelina]

You’re right and wrong @World. Women would leave upon marriage if they worked as servants and maids. Not as factory workers or farm laborers, they would often still have to stay.



@World

For the period 1787 to 1815, 66 percent of married women in working-class households had either a recorded occupation or positive earnings.

While many wives worked, the amount of their earnings was small relative to their husband’s earnings.

Work in the factories was very disciplined, so the women could not bring their children to the factory, and could not take breaks at will. However, these difficulties did not prevent women with small children from working.

Women Workers in the British Industrial Revolution

eh.net

At one point I had an obession with Regency and Victorian period dramas, so this info I’ve always known as it made me interested in reading up on the history of women working as they always portrayed married women going to the factory and having to make their little 5 yr old work and sadly all of that is true.

The industrial revolution was a sickening time for the working class. Also, some rural wives also worked on the farm of their landlord although they would have a lot more time to run their households.

All in all, women not working has always been a privilege for middle/working class. Even then, when those women’s husband and father died, they’d have to work as a governess and their standard of living would drop.

 

[World]

You’re right and wrong @World. Women would leave upon marriage if they worked as servants and maids. Not as factory workers or farm laborers, they would often still have to stay.



@World

For the period 1787 to 1815, 66 percent of married women in working-class households had either a recorded occupation or positive earnings.

While many wives worked, the amount of their earnings was small relative to their husband’s earnings.

Women Workers in the British Industrial Revolution

eh.net

At one point I had an obession with Regency and Victorian period dramas, so this info I’ve always known as it made me interested in reading up on the history of women working as they always portrayed married women going to the factory and having to make their little 5 yr old work and sadly all of that is true.

The industrial revolution was a sickening time for the working class. Also, some rural wives also worked on the farm of their landlord although they would have a lot more time to run their households.

All in all, women not working has always been a privilege for middle/working class. Even then, when those women’s husband and father died, they’d have to work as a governess and their standard of living would drop.

Professor Kathryn Hughes who got her doctorate in Victorian history at Oxford seems to say otherwise:

“During the Victorian period men and women’s roles became more sharply defined than at any time in history. In earlier centuries it had been usual for women to work alongside husbands and brothers in the family business. Living ‘over the shop’ made it easy for women to help out by serving customers or keeping accounts while also attending to their domestic duties. As the 19th century progressed men increasingly commuted to their place of work – the factory, shop or office. Wives, daughters and sisters were left at home all day to oversee the domestic duties that were increasingly carried out by servants. From the 1830s, women started to adopt the crinoline, a huge bell-shaped skirt that made it virtually impossible to clean a grate or sweep the stairs without tumbling over.”

British Library

www.bl.uk

 

[Angelina]

Professor Kathryn Hughes who got her doctorate in Victorian history at Oxford seems to say otherwise:

“During the Victorian period men and women’s roles became more sharply defined than at any time in history. In earlier centuries it had been usual for women to work alongside husbands and brothers in the family business. Living ‘over the shop’ made it easy for women to help out by serving customers or keeping accounts while also attending to their domestic duties. As the 19th century progressed men increasingly commuted to their place of work – the factory, shop or office. Wives, daughters and sisters were left at home all day to oversee the domestic duties that were increasingly carried out by servants. From the 1830s, women started to adopt the crinoline, a huge bell-shaped skirt that made it virtually impossible to clean a grate or sweep the stairs without tumbling over.”

British Library

www.bl.uk

World, we’re talking about working class women, NOT middle class women who had SERVANTS to oversea. Come on, the bit in bold makes it very clear about the class this source is about. Fashionable bell shaped skirts? Servants?


That source doesn’t disagree with my source at all as it is specifically about middle class women.Unless you can find me a source that specifically says working class women didn’t work, this proves nothing. And you’ll be hard pressed to find it @World. Your source talks about how unmarried daughters and sisters stayed home. We both know and agree that poor daughters and sisters worked. Only Middle class girls has the privilege to stay home whilst unmarried and that is what this source alludes to.


MY source is literally about the working class;

Work in the factories was very disciplined, so the women could not bring their children to the factory, and could not take breaks at will. However, these difficulties did not prevent women with small children from working.

 

[World]

World, we’re talking about working class women, NOT middle class women who had SERVANTS to oversea. Come on, the bit in bold makes it very clear about the class this source is about. Fashionable bell shaped skirts? Servants?


That source doesn’t disagree with my source at all as it is specifically about middle class women.Unless you can find me a source that specifically says working class women didn’t work, this proves nothing. And you’ll be hard pressed to find it @World. Your source talks about how unmarried daughters and sisters stayed home. We both know and agree that poor daughters and sisters worked. Only Middle class girls has the privilege to stay home whilst unmarried and that is what this source alludes to.


MY source is literally about the working class;

Work in the factories was very disciplined, so the women could not bring their children to the factory, and could not take breaks at will. However, these difficulties did not prevent women with small children from working.

Your source says that married women contributed 7 % of household budget and that there are no comprehensive sources of information on the labor force participation of married women. It doesn’t say that they worked in factories with small children.

 

[Richard Pearson]

There are plenty of suitable Halimos in the west who are miskeen and kind-hearted from good pious families who you would be lucky to be married to. Saying there are no decent girls is just a cop-out for you not looking hard enough or you are simply not up to the standards of what these women are looking for. Do you not have good women in your family who were born and raised in the west why can't you find a spouse with similar traits to them?

I also don't believe that a majority of women truly care about their careers as you mentioned and it's simply not in their innate nature to want to grind in corporate when they could be raising their own family, even though some women do truly enjoy their careers for some reason.

As a man and someone that has a career in a traditional professional field, I get no utility from the job besides the salary I am paid some people care about prestige, but I simply do not. If I were to be paid the same salary without having to work there I would take it in a heartbeat, and in 9/10 cases if you were actually able to adequately financially provide for a western halimo she would not choose to work.

 

[Leila]

So many guys have been traveling overseas to find suitable wives. There excuses are, they cant cook and clean. When I ask them will they bring them to America they usually always say “never” because “she will become westernized by feminism”. It makes no sense to me. Im tryna travel back and forth to so my girl.

The men that go to Africa to find a wife are usually

- older adeers
- fobs
- dhaqan celis guys

Majority of Somali guys that grow up in Western countries end up with a girl from their own diaspora group.

 

[Angelina]

Your source says that married women contribute 7 % of household budget and that there are no there are no comprehensive sources of information on the labor force participation of married women.

There is still extensive literature on it and my sources still mention that working class mothers worked. Historians were able to look at household budgets:

household budgets reported by contemporary authors give us some information on women’s participation.30 For the period 1787 to 1815, 66 percent of married women in working-class households had either a recorded occupation or positive earnings.

There was records of their occupation.You can’t negate that at all. In fact there is a whole paragraph on how working working mothers juggled child-care and working in factories if you scroll down.

Even if they only gave 7% to their household that still disproves your theory that women didn’t work. I’ve added another source down below which gives us an insight as to why their contributions might have been low. Women earned very little and some had to split their wages with a carer.

Also, another source:

Some 750,000 working women in this period were also mothers. Both historians and contemporaries have claimed that factory mothers spent the working day away from their infants and children, as the 19th-century industrious period ended any form of control these women had over their working lives. This separation dictated who did what work and where they did it, leading women to be pushed out of the public sphere into domestic spaces. Working-class women’s inability to combine waged work with childcare bit hard when insufficiency of a husband’s earnings forced mothers out to work. If they were to venture out, they had to split their wage with a carer and disrupt the family by being away from home, leading historians to analyse whether women’s quest for a wage in the industrial revolution benefitted their families.

https://www.historyworkshop.org.uk/labour-and-love/

 

[Angelina]

@World

Don’t get me wrong, many of those working class women did stay home as they were able to very sadly get their 8yr old son to go and work in the factory. But life was an incredible struggle for the poor and some were simply forced to.

 

[Thebluesomali]

@World

Don’t get me wrong, many of those working class women did stay home as they were able to very sadly get their 8yr old son to go and work in the factory. But life was an incredible struggle for the poor and some were simply forced to.

In my opinion they need to bring back some form of child labor. I look at kids nowadays they just sit on their couches playing on ipads. If we could maybe get them to work like 1-3 hours a day, we can get some economic output and keep them active

 

[Ahmed123-]

In my opinion they need to bring back some form of child labor. I look at kids nowadays they just sit on their couches playing on ipads. If we could maybe get them to work like 1-3 hours a day, we can get some economic output and keep them active

let's send them to the coal mines

 

[Angelina]

In my opinion they need to bring back some form of child labor. I look at kids nowadays they just sit on their couches playing on ipads. If we could maybe get them to work like 1-3 hours a day, we can get some economic output and keep them active

Saxib, if you read how terrible the rate of child mortality was and the inhumane conditions which resulted in various diseases, you wouldn’t be enthusiastic to bring it back . Whilst I’m thankful for the industrial revolution which propelled us to modernity, it truly was a bleak time in British history. Reading up on factory work, trade unionism and the workhouse act made me realize that the British were not only cruel to the natives they colonized, but also to their own working class natives.

 

[World]

@World

Don’t get me wrong, many of those working class women did stay home as they were able to very sadly get their 8yr old son to go and work in the factory. But life was an incredible struggle for the poor and some were simply forced to.

According to the British census though, 65 % of women were unemployed and of those that did work, 40 % worked in domestic services e.g. as maids. Surely 65 % of the population couldn’t have been middle class, right?

Only 0-5% of married women worked on average across the UK although in certain small areas they did work a lot.

 

[Angelina]

According to the British census though, 65 % of women were unemployed and of those that did work, 40 % worked in domestic services e.g. as maids. Surely 65 % of the population couldn’t have been middle class, right?

View attachment 246409

In 90 % of the UK, only 0-5% of married women worked although in certain small areas they did work a lot.

View attachment 246410
View attachment 246411

Yep, 35% of women worked. That is a lot of women when you think about that the fact that was pre-feminism and before women even had the chance to work in normal professions. Think about it, in the UK, as of 2022 it is 72% and women are able to work in every sector


That 65% of women who are unemployed would obviously include married working class women and rural women whose job such as helping around the farm would have been seen as more casual. By the way a lot of women’s work wasn’t recorded by consensus but we know they did via contemporary reports.

I also said that some working class women would simply get their 7+ yr old kids to work in the factories which saved them from splitting the money with a career.

I think by the 1880s, trade unionism become stronger with regards to factory work and men’s wages were increased which probably allowed women to stay home I suppose, because we know that from 1778-1815, 66% of women worked. However, we can see that in very big industrial towns, they’re working at like 35+% which is ridiculously high, hence my theory might not be correct.

Also, another key point World that historians agree on, the census on women’s work wasn’t accurate as you have contemporary sources which give a clearer picture and reveal that more actually worked than one would think.

 

[TheManWhoIsAlive]

Honestly I'm trying to make six figures and then get a housewife and treat her well. I'm trying to have a more old school marriage. I know I'll have the money to hold it down for the family Inshallah. If you are trying to get a more traditional woman, then my biggest recommendation is to be primarily focused on your money. Get your funds right my guys.

 

[World]

Yep, 35% of women worked. That is a lot of women when you think about that the fact that was pre-feminism and before women even had the chance to work in normal professions. Think about it, in the UK, as of 2022 it is 72% and women are able to work in every sector


That 65% of women who are unemployed would obviously include married working class women. That is why I said that some would simply get their 7+ yr old kids to work in the factories which saved them from splitting the money with a career.

I think by the 1880s, trade unionism become stronger with regards to factory work and men’s wages were increased which probably allowed women to stay home I suppose, because we know that from 1778-1815, 66% of women worked. However, we can see that in very big industrial towns, they’re working at like 35+% which is ridiculously high.

The female labour participation force between 1851 and 1881 is actually an increase in 0.2 %, so more women were working and not less. Women were not forced out or voluntarily withdrew from the labour face as the source says:

The source also says: “The published census reports started recording information on female occupations in 1841 and it was not until 1851 when the data on female occupations became of analytical value.”

So not much weight is placed on female occupation data before 1851.

 

[Kane]

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[Angelina]

The female labour participation force between 1851 and 1881 is actually an increase in 0.2 %, so more women were working and not less. Women were not forced out or voluntarily withdrew from the labour face as the source says:

View attachment 246413

The source also says: “The published census reports started recording information on female occupations in 1841 and it was not until 1851 when the data on female occupations became of analytical value.”

So not much weight is placed on female occupation data before 1851.

The female labour participation force between 1851 and 1881 is actually an increase in 0.2 %, so more women were working and not less. Women were not forced out or voluntarily withdrew from the labour face as the source says:

Historians argue that the census doesn’t give us an accurate picture though. contemporary household budgets reveal that more women did in fact work than what was officially revealed.

also, the whole voluntary point I made was merely a theory. I was linking the rise of male trade unionism ect but it turns out I was wrong. Oh well.

View attachment 246413

The source also says: “The published census reports started recording information on female occupations in 1841 and it was not until 1851 when the data on female occupations became of analytical value.”

So not much weight is placed on female occupation data before 1851.

YeAh, that we already discussed when I mentioned the household budget source. Household budget along with actual first hand Victorian reports is what historians used to get an insight of women’s work.