How tribalism is being used to undermine our shared ethnicity.

[Angelina]

The core principles of the pact are maintained in terms rotating presidencies and number of federal states. Many other issues are contentious but SL soveriengty is not supported as these are the goods to be dominated once the political settlement between Hawiye/Darood becomes viable.

No country in this world ever wants to annex parts of what they consider their land-it’s as simple as that. You also have people in your borders who from its inception have struggled with the idea of being a minority in SL lands despite hailing from a big clan. A Hawiye who hates Daroods gains a lot from Dhulus staying within colonial borders of SL, that’s why during the start of the war, those Hawiye Qabilists were wrapping SL flags on their shoulders as a massive F U to Daroods, but a Dhulbahante Darood doesn’t gain much from being a minority Darood in SL when he has his brothers in PL and the South. Gadabursi also only now show loyalty because they were karbashed in the 90s and appeased with a president- personally felt like it was a fantastic move by SL. But many of them, any chance they get, they too would love to have their own state or join Somalia but are trapped between the Isaaqs and Djibouti so no way out.

My point is this, Somali politics no matter the region is complicated and unfortunately, Somalis don’t operate via nationalism but tribalism. That’s why I have people who look at a Warsengli who lives in SL borders and say he/she isn’t a lander but would call an Isaaq originally from a Somali inhabited area of Ethiopia and call them a lander. Until that rot is removed- we will have issues, North or South.

 

[Midas]

I think they have steadily been coming to Somali shores for a millennium. Some more recent and some who’ve been there for centuries upon centuries who are probably more Somali looking in appearances. You have Reer Xamaris who look no different to an average ethnic Somali and are probably 80% DNA wise

True. Although I think the portion who have been here for a very short time is far higher than we might think . I think the biggest giveaway is the fact that there doesn't seem to be a very different xamari dialect.

also so much of our understanding is shared by 19th and early 20th century colonial historiography. I mean the concept of the Benadir region doesn't make a lot of sense when Barawa has a swahili speaking pouplation. But neither xamar or even merca ever did. Also the fact that It was the nomadic somalis who went overseas and acted as traders more often also complicates the narrative.

 

[reer]

I think they have steadily been coming to Somali shores for a millennium. Some more recent and some who’ve been there for centuries upon centuries who are probably more Somali looking in appearances. You have Reer Xamaris who look no different to an average ethnic Somali and are probably 80% DNA wise

they arent dir darood hawiye isaaq so they will be discriminated against. even digil iyo mirifle face discrimination and being looked down on for their un-geeljire-like customs of assimilation and being primarily farmers. somali dhaqan is fanatical and bias towards geeljires.

 

[Angelina]

True. Although I think the portion who have been here for a very short time is far higher than we might think . I think the biggest giveaway is the fact that there doesn't seem to be a very different xamari dialect.

also so much of our understanding is shared by 19th and early 20th century colonial historiography. I mean the concept of the Benadir region doesn't make a lot of sense when Barawa has a swahili speaking pouplation. But neither xamar or even merca ever did. Also the fact that It was the nomadic somalis who went overseas and acted as traders more often also complicates the narrative.

There is a different Xamari dialect. An Abgal doesn’t speak the same way a Reer Xamari does. They speak a certain way and pronounce words differently.

 

[Angelina]

they arent dir darood hawiye isaaq so they will be discriminated against. even digil iyo mirifle face discrimination and being looked down on for their un-geeljire-like customs of assimilation and being primarily farmers. somali dhaqan is fanatical and bias towards geeljires.

Honestly, when my parents were growing up, people in the capital lived with them peacefully and during that time period, the capital was diverse and people didn’t question their Somalinimo. Being a new young state high on nationalism and the idea of being ‘ilbaax’ meant that cadcads in the 60s, 70s and early 80s had a good time. They were no where near as discriminated against as say Somali Bantus.

Pre and during colonialism, cadcads were very much traders with some being very wealthy and being of the religious class. Some of them would go into the interior to get Gelgire wives in order build trade alliances and have a good relationship with their hosts.

 

[Itsnotthateasy]

No country in this world ever wants to annex parts of what they consider their land-it’s as simple as that. You also have people in your borders who from its inception have struggled with the idea of being a minority in SL lands despite hailing from a big clan. A Hawiye who hates Daroods gains a lot from Dhulus staying within colonial borders of SL, that’s why during the start of the war, those Hawiye Qabilists were wrapping SL flags on their shoulders as a massive F U to Daroods, but a Dhulbahante Darood doesn’t gain much from being a minority Darood in SL when he has his brothers in PL and the South. Gadabursi also only now show loyalty because they were karbashed in the 90s and appeased with a president- personally felt like it was a fantastic move by SL. But many of them, any chance they get, they too would love to have their own state or join Somalia but are trapped between the Isaaqs and Djibouti so no way out.

My point is this, Somali politics no matter the region is complicated and unfortunately, Somalis don’t operate via nationalism but tribalism. That’s why I have people who look at a Warsengli who lives in SL borders and say he/she isn’t a lander but would call an Isaaq originally from a Somali inhabited area of Ethiopia and call them a lander. Until that rot is removed- we will have issues, North or South.

So when you say Somalia/Country we have to understand is as the hawiye/darood political settlement.

Ofcourse they don't want to split the pie they have been handed. You are claiming that they don't agree but largeley they do agree on the basic prinicples of rotating presidencies and number of federal states. Whether Somaliland exists as a dir state under Hawiye domaination or has a darood state break off is like a debatable subject. Most Hawiye probably don't want a new darood state unless they could get one themselves. You aren't getting away from the fact of the matter here.

You are claiming that because some hawiye don't want a new darood state that some how there's something deeper at play like Somalinimo but it's just hawiye/darood competition/enmity. However they will still follow their pact.

You also keep talking about Awdal despite the fact they are well represented within Somaliland where they hold actual power.

 

[Angelina]

So when you say Somalia/Country we have to understand is as the hawiye/darood political settlement.

Ofcourse they don't want to split the pie they have been handed. You are claiming that they don't agree but largeley they do agree on the basic prinicples of rotating presidencies and number of federal states. Whether Somaliland exists as a dir state under Hawiye domaination or has a darood state break off is like a debatable subject. Most Hawiye probably don't want a new darood state unless they could get one themselves. You aren't getting away from the fact of the matter here.

I don’t care what you call it. But it’s ironic because if you want me to accept that Somalia is a Hawiye, Darood pact or whatever but can’t accept SL is an Isaaq ideology and we have seen this via the war with the Gadabursi in the 90s and current war with SL Daroods.

Have the current Hawiye/Daroods fought a war with the Rahanweyne to subdue them? Have they fought a war with the Bimaal Dirs to Subdue to them? I’d say Barre but he fought a war with his own Daroods like MJ, fought Hawiyes and killed Isaaqs and the list continues.

You are not coming with facts unfortunately. I am. What is a fact is that SL fought two non Isaaq tribes to force them to be part of SL. Accept that and move on.

 

[Itsnotthateasy]

I don’t care what you call it. But it’s ironic because if you want me to accept that Somalia is a Hawiye, Darood pact or whatever SL is an Isaaq ideology and we have seen this via your war with the Gadabursi in the 90s and your current war with SL Daroods.

Have the current Hawiye/Daroods fought a war with the Rahanweyne to subdue them? Have they fought a war with the Bimaal Dirs to Subdue to them? I’d say Barre but he fought a war with his one Daroods like MJ, fought Hawiyes and the list continues.

You are not coming with facts unfortunately. I am. What is a fact is that SL fought two non Isaaq tribes to force them to be part of SL. Accept that and move on.

No because the power sharing didn't work. Daroods didn't join probably because of hubris/chip on shoulder and hawiye's monopolized power and didn't even throw federal crumbs to them. So really the reality would have fallen along those lines had the settlement worked.

They were expected to team up on everyone else it was all set up to work like that. That continues to be the blue print.

 

[Angelina]

No because the power sharing didn't work. Daroods didn't join probably because of hubris/chip on shoulder and hawiye's monopolized power and didn't even throw federal crumbs to them. So really the reality would have fallen along those lines had the settlement worked.

They were expected to team up on everyone else it was all set up to work like that.

Now I have a question. What do you see for the future of SSC. How do you think they should be encouraged to come back to being part of SL. How do you think SL should mitigate any tension from non Isaaqs? Also how do you maneuver creating a state identity that isn’t based on Isaaqnimo that doesn’t make Daroods feel like they should join their Southern Daroods?

 

[reer]

Honestly, when my parents were growing up, people in the capital lived with them peacefully and during that time period, the capital was diverse and people didn’t question their Somalinimo. Being a new young mention and high on nationalism and the idea of being ‘ilbaax’ meant that cadcads in the 60s, 70s and early 80s had a good time. They were no where near as discriminated against as say Somali Bantus.

when you leave the capital you enter a new world of tribe and tribalism and geeljire-ism. you should spend some time in a gobol. the true somali essence is tribal culture of reer gobol. the minorities lack that.

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[Angelina]

No because the power sharing didn't work. Daroods didn't join probably because of hubris/chip on shoulder and hawiye's monopolized power and didn't even throw federal crumbs to them. So really the reality would have fallen along those lines had the settlement worked.

They were expected to team up on everyone else it was all set up to work like that. That continues to be the blue print.

You must be high on crack to think that Hawiye and Darood teamed up? Do you not know of the USC? How Daroods and Hawiyes killed each other in the late 80s? General Morgan fighting Hawiyes? How Hawiyes fought Siad and ran him out of Xamar? The fights between HG and MJs? Darood houses in Xamar being taken away?

Hawiyes, were no more united with a Darood than they were with an Isaaq. The difference is that Isaaqs has the 1960 June colonial borders and decided they tried and didn’t want to partake anymore and retired to their colonial borders.

 

[Itsnotthateasy]

You must be high on crack to think that Hawiye and Darood teamed up? Do you not know of the USC? How Daroods and Hawiyes killed each other in the late 80s? General Morgan fighting Hawiyes? How Hawiyes fought Siad and ran him out of Xamar? The fights between HG and MJs? Darood houses in Xamar being taken away?

None of that is happening anymore and Darood and Hawiye are mostly getting along and trading presidency now. There are still occasional skirmishes (see Jubbaland war). Like the worst of the civil war is over but the state building stopped short of creating a functional state.

 

[Angelina]

None of that is happening anymore and Darood and Hawiye are mostly getting along and trading presidency now. There are still occasional skirmishes (see Jubbaland war). Like the worst of the civil war is over but the state building stopped short of creating a functional state.

That is because ouright tribal wars will subside when you have crazy lunatic Al Shaydan causing Kharxis. The South have bigger fish to fry than just tribalism you see. The biggest issue now in Somalia is in fact religious fundamentalism.

If you were to ever go Xamar, no one cares if you’re Darood, a lander or have a different accent. The least tribal population live in Xamar as they have been dealing with Al Shaydaan.

Also, since Xamar was the capital since the 60s, they’ve had different tribes living amongst them.

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[DR OSMAN]

That is because ouright tribal wars will subside when you have crazy lunatic Al Shaydan causing Kharxis. The South have bigger fish to fry than just tribalism you see. The biggest issue now in Somalia is in fact religious fundamentalism.

If you were to ever go Xamar, no one cares if you’re Darood, a lander or have a different accent. The least tribal population live in Xamar as they have been dealing with Al Shaydaan.

Also, since Xamar was the capital since the 60s, they’ve had different tribes living amongst them.

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Listen @Angelina

I went to Mogadishu as a gullible diasporan kid thinking like U that Somalis are 1 post 91 and before 2006 TFG era of putting Somalia back on the map operation which by the way concluded in success. But the old Somalia is dead from the 1960 to 1991, those people are in a minority to the post 91 generation who hold moryan values and join any global or local scheme be it religion, nationalism, terror, etc and then master it.

I tell the people who don't want to face the music, that post 91, their is different audience to the 1960 to 1991 period.

The leaders we need are not wadaads(faataxo Iyo Allah ka cabsi don't work on them), and they sure don't need academics, nationalist(farmaajo), or any type of leader who doesn't understand their mentality or conditioning.

Abdullahi Yusuf was the only credible leader since 91 who understood them and their red-eyes and left Somalis a state on the map and inside the capital, while GAAS n Sharmarke completed the transition a bit to quick and got it recognised. Somali was literally off the map and planet, their spot in the world was just null n void, this is so dangerous and callous.

The State building we expected post sharif to HSM n farmaajo has come to halt for 15 years, this is going to harm Somalia solidarity as no-one has time to waste or kill deek no offence this isn't about love or hate for somalis but survival interest(badbaado interest).

 

[Garaad Awal]

Hutus are superior to your guys. This dumb slur exposes are dumb you arem hutus beat tutsis. So you are calling us the winner of that war, dumb dumb.

Tutsis won the war.

And the superficial nonsense that we look hutu is garbage. Your women are manly and aggressive no wonder they basically rape the men on the first night by jumping on them and deflowering them.

The c00n who ran for England with the foreign wife? Funny you guys attack Ilhan when her first husband was Somali and call her c00n but crickets when the Isaaq married a garob let's move on. But a Somali woman would have to be a 10, good family, educated, same tribe and under 25. But an outsider is anything goes. Haha losers.

Stop chewing naaya

 

[Itsnotthateasy]

That is because ouright tribal wars will subside when you have crazy lunatic Al Shaydan causing Kharxis. The South have bigger fish to fry than just tribalism you see. The biggest issue now in Somalia is in fact religious fundamentalism.

If you were to ever go Xamar, no one cares if you’re Darood, a lander or have a different accent. The least tribal population live in Xamar as they have been dealing with Al Shaydaan.

Also, since Xamar was the capital since the 60s, they’ve had different tribes living amongst them.

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You know if you read politics you wouldn' t think that was the issue at all. Much effort is spent on undermining and hating Somaliland. So nah no one feels sorry you are the own architects of your demise and you want spread the chaos to Somaliland.

In fact many of your politicians/analysts put Somaliland on par with terrorists lol. The long game is Hawiye just see Somaliland as their property being stolen and Daroods see it as springboard to greater Somalia when they can use sheer numbers to claim it as their property. Both these groups have long term designs on extracting resources and political power from Somailand so the Somalinimo con goes on. For now they hold onto their fragile truce until they can make moves for total power.

That whole part of Africa should just fall into the sea the world would be better off.

Anyway nice attempt at playing victim.

 

[DR OSMAN]

You know if you read politics you wouldn' t think that was the issue at all. Much effort is spent on undermining and hating Somaliland. So nah no one feels sorry you are the own architects of your demise and you want spread the chaos to Somaliland.

In fact many of your politicians/analysts put Somaliland on par with terrorists lol.

That whole part of Africa should just fall into the sea the world would be better off.

That's it, I've had Enuff of U and your broken teethed khat addicted population of somaliland(he cant even protect his own teeth waxani gunta guntu dhashay and wanna talk), where is my damn made in PL belt, someone needs a good ass Marage frontal assault again.

I'm going thug mode again

SL is a failed state experiment, it was dead on arrival in 93(jumped to quick, broke international rules based order, thought U could squeeze SL republic in between the stateless era of Mogadishu) not to mention the habar on habar wars brewing directly or indirectly post 95 till now.

For whatever it's worth son Somalia may not have a functioning govt but it has secured its sovereign responsibility and rights till eternity and as Somalia builds U will go into isolation alone and that's if we don't get Ogaden to close the border and Hartis March into erigavo, burco and finally into gabiley and say what now son, Its final solution not operation anymore as their shall be no exit route this time like harshin or Aideed saving your ass by launching a second front in the south for irirism. Come on I'm waiting for it, go cry samaale clans save me before I become failed Galla clan like wardey in Kenya.

 

[Angelina]

You know if you read politics you wouldn' t think that was the issue at all. Much effort is spent on undermining and hating Somaliland. So nah no one feels sorry you are the own architects of your demise and you want spread the chaos to Somaliland.

Stop with the emotional waffling. It’s your citizens the Darood ones who raised up. Unless you don’t see them as SL, conflating them with Somalia doesn’t make sense.

In fact many of your politicians/analysts put Somaliland on par with terrorists lol. The long game is Hawiye just see Somaliland as their property being stolen and Daroods see it as springboard to greater Somalia when they can use sheer numbers to claim it as their property. Both these groups have long term designs on extracting resources and political power from Somailand so the Somalinimo con goes on. For now they hold onto their fragile truce until they can make moves for total power.

So Daroods want to take over Somaliland? From who? Their fellow Daroods? Samaroons of the real Landers the Isaaqs? What I want to know is what is your view of SL. Is it mostly hinged upon Isaaq or is not based on Qabil? If it isn’t based on Qabil demonizing Daroods is ridiculous.

That whole part of Africa should just fall into the sea the world would be better off.

Anyway nice attempt at playing victim.

Again contradiction. And the fact that you didn’t answer my questions shows this. Are Daroods not part of SL state? So why talk about Darood this or that? Or is your state simply an Isaaq one based on tribalism? You can’t seem to answer this.

I don’t need to play victim since I don’t see the South or North as victims. You can’t even be consistent in our conversation and side stepped and projected throughout.

 

[DR OSMAN]

Stop with the emotional waffling. It’s your citizens the Darood ones who raised up. Unless you don’t see them as SL, conflating them with Somalia doesn’t make sense.

So Daroods want to take over Somaliland? From who? Their fellow Daroods? Samaroons of the real Landers the Isaaqs? What I want to know is what is your view of SL. Is it mostly hinged upon Isaaq or is not based on Qabil? If it isn’t based on Qabil demonizing Daroods is ridiculous.

Again contradiction. And the fact that you didn’t answer my questions shows this. Are Daroods not part of SL state? So why talk about Darood this or that? Or is your state simply an Isaaq one based on tribalism? You can’t seem to answer this.

I don’t need to play victim since I don’t see the South or North as victims. You can’t even be consistent in our conversation and side stepped and projected throughout.

@Angelina U know Aideed saved their ass by opening up a southern front in 89, these niggas were in harshin Ethiopia whatever was left of their scum people that hyenas didn't eat or mosquitos. They were horgals for Menguistu who also wanted to play them by pushing off the oromo threat(land hungry) there over to SL and securing Somalia thru a slow gradual population replacement and declare it as Ethiopia thru a referendum(by then they would be majority).

That's why he wasn't interested seeing a post siyad barre Somalia, he needed Somalia off the map and begin the walking migrations of oromo which was the second phase before Somalia is no more and is essentially Ethiopia in population make up.

No joke if Aideed didn't open that southern front for irir love, he wouldn't be sitting here having a discussion as Ogadens were already preparing for settlements and land holdings.

Siyad simply was fighting a two way war while the irir enemy was sharing the war effort in a southern and northern posture is the brutal truth. Plus Siyad only had Dhulbahante and Marehan clans taking on all irir clans as MJ was demobilized and civilians. Ogadens even ended up helping irir faction thru Omar Jess adding more culays to Siyad Barre.

 

[Itsnotthateasy]

Stop with the emotional waffling. It’s your citizens the Darood ones who raised up. Unless you don’t see them as SL, conflating them with Somalia doesn’t make sense.

So Daroods want to take over Somaliland? From who? Their fellow Daroods? Samaroons of the real Landers the Isaaqs? What I want to know is what is your view of SL. Is it mostly hinged upon Isaaq or is not based on Qabil? If it isn’t based on Qabil demonizing Daroods is ridiculous.

Again contradiction. And the fact that you didn’t answer my questions shows this. Are Daroods not part of SL state? So why talk about Darood this or that? Or is your state simply an Isaaq one based on tribalism? You can’t seem to answer this.

I don’t need to play victim since I don’t see the South or North as victims. You can’t even be consistent in our conversation and side stepped and projected throughout.

Stop switching subjects you were trying to claim how daroods and hawiye don't work together or there's no pact between them when there obviously is and stated by third parties who have knowledge on the issue. You would probably try to hide the fact if it wasn't in black and white.

You are trying to create a wedge where darood could never consider themselves part of Somaliland, a crab in the bucket play you could call it. Ofcourse they can and they have and there's no problems. Defined borders are the biggest part of thing anyway.

That doesn't mean there isn't a IC scheme to rebuild somalia under Hawiye/Darood and that complicates things for Somaliland but not a lot really. How can Somaliland's democracy compete with a supremist project?

The problem you are having is that your whole narrative is based on the idea that SL is a supremist project while hiding your own political settlement. You guys push that idea and the IC was fully on yourside until recently and that helped you a lot with your narrative but it's falling apart.