How tribalism is being used to undermine our shared ethnicity.

[Itsnotthateasy]

I’ve made that clear that Somalis are an ethnicity. When I mentioned nation I meant in terms of a group of people who share an ethnicity and not via nationhood

Why is the argument about Somali ethnicity so threatening? It's not a basis for political organization so who cares? The fact is some people want to use it for the basis of political organization so they are upset when it is challenged. Others don't really care. The fact is it just doesn't matter because primacy is with clan anyway.

 

[Barkhadle1520]

Why is the argument about Somali ethnicity so threatening? It's not a basis for political organization so who cares? The fact is some people want to use it for the basis of political organization so they are upset when it is challenged. Others don't really care. The fact is it just doesn't matter because primacy is with clan anyway.

By that logic each clan will make their 3rd world country and keep doing tuulo wars until 2050

And dont forget Ethiopia that will actively arm one side to destroy the other, like they always did, if we didnt have as much cadow then balkanization maybe could have been a consideration but anyone knows that to achieve progress Somalis need to be more united, its in our mutual benefit, regardless of how much you hate your neighbor, and for that to happen there needs to be order and a central government or else the tuulo wars will never stop


This is all in theory, Im not saying I support the gov in xamar

 

[Angelina]

Why is the argument about Somali ethnicity so threatening? It's not a basis for political organization so who cares? The fact is some people want to use it for the basis of political organization so they are upset when it is challenged. Others don't really care. The fact is it just doesn't matter because primacy is with clan anyway.

Because they’re peddling the idea that we’re are a group of people of various origins and mixed ethnicities hence any historical achievement regardless of where in the Somali peninsula cannot be attributed to Somalis. It’s an act if erasure.

 

[Zak12]

Masha Allah Oral history Empire

I even heard from some nomads that Ajuran conquered China! Wee ilbaxeen reer ajuran

Well first off, its not purely oral, there are primary sources about the Ajuran sultanate like this Arabic document that Lee Cassanelli translated.

And second, there is literally nothing wrong with oral history. If its consistent and corroborated well then it can be used and can be even more useful than written history. Plenty of historical polities rely on oral history as well.

It's more than oral history, to be honest. It's also that the the tribe all the other Banaadiri tribes maintain was the "oldest" and at one point ruling tribe of Xamar are basically an off-shoot of the Ajuuraan. See this thread.

Then we also know some of these weren't really oral traditions originally as we see that in the days when European researchers were making contact with these narrators they were frequently stopping to consult manuscripts that are now sadly either lost or in the possession of families that have yet to come forward (like with this document).

Finally, classifying this as simply "oral stories" is silly. These aren't Fisherman's wives tales. They actually went to many different tribes and individuals all across Koonfur and noticed they were all telling more or less the same story, even when not really in contact with each other much then tried to connect this to contemporary traditions, dynamics (like that Banaadiri tribe) and even some rudimentary archaeological work. The odds of all of that being some grand conspiracy and made-up is quite low.

I'd read Virginia Luling's book on the Geledi to understand what the "Ajuuraan" was more or less really like, though:

Somali Sultanate : the Geledi city-state over 150 years : Luling, Virginia : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

xiv, 296 pages, 4 unnumbered pages of plates : 24 cm

archive.org

I honestly haven't given Koonfur the deep dive its deserves and defer to @Idilinaa on all this in reality but the impression I get is that they were just a dominant tribe in the interior, like the Geledi, who managed to gain a stranglehold over the riverine south's agriculture and therefore essentially make the Banaadir towns, that were completely dependent on that agriculture, beholden to them and even establish and off-shoot of them as a dominant tribe within the greatest of the three main ports. Geledi before the Geledi, basically.

 

[Angelina]

By that logic each clan will make their 3rd world country and keep doing tuulo wars until 2050

And that is what will continue to happen, unless by the grace of Allah something changes.

Even SL- a relatively peaceful part of the Somali peninsula is threatened with annexation of parts of their territory due to tribal disputes. Somalis even if every part splits cannot play nicely with each other unfortunately. Therefore I laugh when Northerners try to otherise Southern Somalis, because ultimately, they can’t even see eye to eye in the North and otherzise each other. I have family that say Dhulos aren’t ‘landers’ but are angry that they dare try to break away, so I don’t expect any faux unity between the North, South, East or West.

A lamagoodle is a lamagoodle unfortunately.

 

[Chaseyourdreamzz]

Well first off, its not purely oral, there are primary sources about the Ajuran sultanate like this Arabic document that Lee Cassanelli translated.

View attachment 364777

And second, there is literally nothing wrong with oral history. If its consistent and corroborated well then it can be used and can be even more useful than written history. Plenty of historical polities rely on oral history as well.

I’ve heard oral history of ajuuraan being defeated by hiraabs also explain how they ended up scattered deep in NFD and DDS

 

[Angelina]

I’ve heard oral history of ajuuraan being defeated by hiraabs

Not just Oral history but has been acknowledged by historians. Imam Ya’qubi took over Xamar in the last 1600s via defeating and eliminating Ajuraans. Today, Ajuraans are a small minority.

 

[novanova]

By that logic each clan will make their 3rd world country and keep doing tuulo wars until 2050

And dont forget Ethiopia that will actively arm one side to destroy the other, like they always did, if we didnt have as much cadow then balkanization maybe could have been a consideration but anyone knows that to achieve progress Somalis need to be more united, its in our mutual benefit, regardless of how much you hate your neighbor, and for that to happen there needs to be order and a central government or else the tuulo wars will never stop


This is all in theory, Im not saying I support the gov in xamar

Im so sorry but all somali clans need to come to their senses and commit to a national agenda

good point on the enemy.

the whole idea of unifying somalis in the modern era is rooted in a resistance to ethiopian christian encroachment onto our lands. without that blob there is no reason for us to unite, i'd have been of the opinion that it is okay if we all just balkanize and "develop our regions" but in the face of an expansionist ethiopia, which views mass scale ethnic wars full of death and misery as cyclical, such a view is utterly naive and self destructive to all somalis.

 

[DR OSMAN]

@Angelina don't U know it's well known among moryans in Somalia when a Somali deflects to minority groups or foreigners they assume your scared to face the music(beeshasi bisayl ma aha ayay ku kaftaman) and thats your own ethnicity is hunting U down and the more U deflect the more they plot and plan how to capture your territory. Dagaalka Somalia maxaa keenay sheeko minority Iyo foreigner, them red eyes niggas(of all clans) will not cease or stop to ensure your ass pays the price ama qayli ama minority uu coy, we don't want U on this earth ma ceeb ba, that's moryan mentality face the music stop being so cheesy and deflecting?

 

[Chaseyourdreamzz]

Not just Oral history but has been acknowledged by historians. Imam Ya’qubi took over Xamar in the last 1600s via defeating and eliminating Ajuraans. Today, Ajuraans are a small minority.

Yeah it was mainly abgaals that defeated them They are small in Somalia but pretty big in Kenya probably over 200k now

Spoiler

You don't have permission to view the spoiler content. Log in or register now.

 

[Barkhadle1520]

Well first off, its not purely oral, there are primary sources about the Ajuran sultanate like this Arabic document that Lee Cassanelli translated.

View attachment 364777

And second, there is literally nothing wrong with oral history. If its consistent and corroborated well then it can be used and can be even more useful than written history. Plenty of historical polities rely on oral history as well.

Ajuran probably had some power at some point but it was only something in the interior and regional, not the "empire" you portray it to be, please stop with this embarassing suugo history

Also there is no trace of that document anywhere I have already searched for it, no translation, no copy no pictures

Someone I know has a good theory on an Ajuran kingdom but it lacks evidence due to poor research on ground

As for Oral history, you will only see sub saharans doing this cringy ass shit, building a whole fairytle history on oral tales some random baadiyo told them, when we talk history others will bring manuscripts, documents and authentic maps, and you what will you have ?

"This geeljire named Abdi Fatax told me Ajuran wuz kangz n shiet !"


This is how madows made up a whole suugo kingdom about a sabaean fort in south Africa "great zimbabwe" kulaha

You know this is really ironic because Ajuran and Garre are the only clans to have been xooged by Oromos and become their clients for centuries

 

[Angelina]

@Angelina don't U know it's well known among moryans in Somalia when a Somali deflects to minority groups or foreigners they assume your scared to face the music that your own ethnicity is hunting U down and the more U deflect the more they plot and plan how to capture your territory. Dagaalka Somalia maxaa keenay sheeko minority Iyo foreigner, us red eyes niggasnwe just ensuring your ass pays the price ama qayli ama minority uu coy, we don't want U on this earth ma ceeb ba, that's moryan mentality face the music stop being so cheesy and deflecting?

Going to have to have to break this down to me? Not going to lie, it comes across as a Khat inspired waffle. No logic nor does it make sense, just khat and vibes.

 

[DR OSMAN]

Going to have to have to break this down to me? Not going to lie, it comes across as a Khat inspired waffle. No logic nor does it make sense, just khat and vibes.

Nah won't break it down for U, will just watch U when your clan territory is up for Annexation by another clan, I will then remind U why waste time on useless foreign or minority topics, adaaba miska saaran lax yahay

 

[Barkhadle1520]

Im so sorry but all somali clans need to come to their senses and commit to a national agenda

There is not only Ethiopia btw, Arab states such as Gadaffi's Lybia also financed warlords to further destabilize Somalia

Its easy to understand why when you realize how much oil, gas and minerals we have, a stable somali state that would profit off of these resources and that wouldnt be good news for their monopoly on oil, a strong somalia in general wouldnt be good geopolitically, imagine if they start getting involved in Yemen what would saudi do ?

Theres too many examples like these, I mean were literally sitting right next to the most strategic strait in the world

 

[Angelina]

Nah won't break it down for U, will just watch U when your clan territory is up for Annexation by another clan,I will then remind U why waste time on useless foreign or minority topics, adaaba miska saaran lax yahay

I am a woman. Most modern moryaans believe that women don’t have a clan and if a man from my clan abuses me, they will cover for him.

Since you want to talk about the real cultural Moryaanimo of the Somalis, let’s both be honest

 

[Zak12]

but it was only something in the interior and regional,

Sorry but they defintely weren't an interior civilization, they covered most of the Somali coast from Hafun to Kismayo

Also there is no trace of that document anywhere

I got it from @Idilinaa who can explain this topic better than I can

you will only see sub saharans doing this cringy ass shit,

Kekekek, dude many groups and regions use oral history. Native Americans and other historically non-literate groups are entirely reliant on oral history. Even Europeans and Asians use oral history a lot. Texts like the Illiad and Odyssey or Japan's Nihon Shoki ans Konjiki were oral and only put into words hundreds of years later

 

[Barkhadle1520]

Sorry but they defintely weren't an interior civilization, they covered most of the Somali coast from Hafun to Kismayo

I got it from @Idilinaa who can explain this topic better than I can

Kekekek, dude many groups and regions use oral history. Native Americans and other historically non-literate groups are entirely reliant on oral history. Even Europeans and Asians use oral history a lot. Texts like the Illiad and Odyssey or Japan's Nihon Shoki ans Konjiki were oral and only put into words hundreds of years later

From Hafun to Kismayo LMAO

Kismayo was founded in the 1800s

Hafun was under the Bar sad al din and was bombarded by the portuguese in the 16th century

Nice one mr ajuran historian

 

[Zak12]

From Hafun to Kismayo LMAO

Kismayo was founded in the 1800s

Hafun was under the Bar sad al din and was bombarded by the portuguese in the 16th century

Nice one mr ajuran historian

As I said it has been talked about extensively. I'll let @Idilinaa handle it

 

[DR OSMAN]

I am a woman. Most modern moryaans believe that women don’t have a clan and if a man from my clan abuses me, they will cover for him.

Since you want to talk about the real cultural Moryaanimo of the Somalis, let’s both be honest

Maybe the modern ones I don't know I didn't have access to them nowadays. But the old schools one I saw and lived with, I am sorry to burst your bubble but thats not the case at all. First U would be culays hence sucking on his resources n time(this is a big no no), secondly U wud need to have something of value(other then make up as that wears off) and your real face comes out but I knew some who were working women and setting up schemes in prostitution and maid jobs and even one I remember said the malab has a sanduuq she was some religious type malab felt sorry for her wallahi.

I hate moryanism as their only agenda is their own well being. Their obsessed with money

 

[Barkhadle1520]

As I said it has been talked about extensively. I'll let @Idilinaa handle it

Haye lets see what macalimad says