So wrong and strong lol
According to who? Do you even read papers or just talk out your ass?
How much MENA ancestry do horners really have
- Thread starter Abdisamadi
- Start date
Garaad Awal
Former African
You have zero clue what you are speaking about the average Somali is ~45% MENA. If you mean purely West Eurasian it would probably drop 38% but the OP asked about the amount of MENA ancestry. Even in Qpadm Somalis are 40% BedouinB/Saudi with 3-4% Paleolithic/Early Neolithic Maghreb ancestry
Isn’t that the point of the question? To gauge exactly how much true Eurasian DNA we have. That’s what they mean when they say MENA. Some Somalis love to overinflate the Eurasian DNA in us when it’s on avg no more than ~38%. The Palaeolithic North African was close to SSA’s anyways.
True but the exact average is 40%. Less so in Kenyan Somalis
Garaad Awal
Former African
There is no pure modern West Eurasians tho…even the Europeans have ANE & ANA (via the Anatolian Farmers). OP’s question was about MENA ancestry. While some other Europeans have Uralic/East Asian related ancestry while Iranians & Afghans have non-West Eurasian ASI & ANE ancestry.
It drops to 38 % because that’s how much “45 % MENA” is when you remove their SSA ancestry.
West Asian sources of the Eurasian component in Ethiopians: a reassessment - Scientific Reports
The presence of genomic signatures of Eurasian origin in contemporary Ethiopians has been reported by several authors and estimated to have arrived in the area from 3000 years ago. Several studies reported plausible source populations for such a signature, using haplotype based methods on modern...
www.nature.com
“so wrong”
The alchemist
VIP
Somalis:
MENA = Dzudzuana (proxy for Paleo-SW Asian) + Taforalt (North African, endemic) = 47.7%
MENA = Natufian = 42.5%
MENA = SKH1 (North African Middle Neolithic Pastoralist) = 44.3%
MENA = Old Kingdom (sim) = 43.6%
MENA = Saudi = 42.1%
MENA = Anatolian Neolithic = 36.5%
MENA = Iranian Neolithic = 35.4%
Minor depreciated values from overrepresenting southern samples and only using the average for the Puntland sample set. Not a big deal, though.
MENA = Dzudzuana (proxy for Paleo-SW Asian) + Taforalt (North African, endemic) = 47.7%
MENA = Natufian = 42.5%
MENA = SKH1 (North African Middle Neolithic Pastoralist) = 44.3%
MENA = Old Kingdom (sim) = 43.6%
MENA = Saudi = 42.1%
MENA = Anatolian Neolithic = 36.5%
MENA = Iranian Neolithic = 35.4%
Minor depreciated values from overrepresenting southern samples and only using the average for the Puntland sample set. Not a big deal, though.
Correct me if i'm not wrong sxb, our MENA seems to be Levant-related (possibly neolithic due to lightskin snps and migration of west asian animals) + Taforalt-related, a more eastern verison of Taforalt itself on the SSA side contains West African and West African-related components.
Yes west Asian farmers + local Egyptian hunter gatherers accounts for a large amount of the MENA ancestry in Somalis, though the recent ancient Egyptian DNA leaks opens up the possibility of direct Mesopotamian or Caucasus migration into the Nile valley which could have indirectly affected Somalis
When you say "Paleolithic North African was close to SSA's anyway", what do you mean?
You might be mixed up with the ANA/Ancestral North Africans who were entirely SSA-like people who later mixed with incoming migrants from Eurasia forming Paleolithic/Neolithic North Africans, this admixture is old going back 20k years.
They were intermediate like horners are between SSA and MENAs. They cluster quite closely with the Afars/Ethio-Semites.
They are far closer to MENA's than we are generally as a group.
These people mixed with Early European Farmers forming maghrebis.
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Didn't our AEA also have basal eurasian ancestry so if you add that back on, wouldn't it go back up again?
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The alchemist
VIP
You don't need a high admixture to have SNPs for a specific trait in a population. Selective sweeps exist. You can have 3% admixture yet have 90% of the traits received from that 3% because it is adaptive, cultural, or other social conditions. Humans have complex variational genetic architecture from groups that show no presence in the autosomal record.
The southern African hunter-gatherer groups that received Cushitic ancestry probably got way higher frequencies of the light-skin genes than Somalis, but they had very minor Eurasian levels compared to us.
All I am saying is, that these frequencies don't necessarily mean high admixture, while I am not denying we got Neolithic Levant-like influence in some minor proportion.
I don't know how many Somalis have it as well. Take me, for example, a guy who funnily got higher MENA because I have additional Arabian, yet lack this SNP. I think some of my siblings got it because they are way lighter than me. But at the same time, although I am a melanated guy, I do have a weirdly dark reddish hue, which does not show in my allele. So there has to be an inter-play of other genes that deal with skin color beyond those alleles, in my opinion.
I think this light-skin SNP has a similar frequency as the conventional lactase persistence genes (there are other conditions for consuming milk due to gut microbe diversity and other conditions unaccounted for by researchers), it's present but not very high.
We have to remember we are not of Natufian people, they are a separate population that is deeply related to ours. So their selections of SNPs can, for all we know, be an artifact of a founder effect, or we could be, or both are possible at different times. The point is, that Natufians might show indications of possibilities but they are never the complete blueprint. To my knowledge, that SNP is 19 thousand years old... It could have existed before the Neolithic in Northeast Africa in low frequencies and Natufians could have been the offshoot that did not carry that diversity. It is less likely but still a possibility.
There is no evidence that Central Saharan groups were West African mixed, or that Taforalt on the east accompanied West African DNA. You see that today with Toubou and other Saharan Nilo-Saharans, but that ancestry probably came later - or, the West Africans lived in the margins and interacted with the western-most Saharan pastoralists/hunter-gatherers, not the ones in the central and east. You have the SKH samples who were pastoralists that likely had partial origin from the middle Saharan region before they expanded further northwest due to the drying of the Sahara, exuding no West African DNA.
We have ANA-like stuff as well, and so do all populations from Sudan, needless to say, West African DNA is not the common correlational factor; we’d know this early on if it was. Natufians are of such origin as well, of northeast African origin (mainly), and its Taforalt-like DNA never accompanied enriched West African DNA.
Our MENA is mainly from the Paleolithic, not the Levant Neolithic or later. I subscribe that this Natufian thing is just components that go back to way before the food production days. Neolithic Levant influence on us is marginal. I don’t deny there is a presence. I just think people exaggerate the influence, and it is definitely below the Southwest Asian back migration that came roughly 23 kya.
To not open a whole new can of worms, and tons of questions, I will only briefly mention things below that I will possibly expand upon some other time but exist here for people to read and reflect upon, not necessarily something I am willing to delve into as of yet:
I think this so-called Levantine influence from the Neolithic was probably actually Arabian. They shared DNA but Arabia was the better pastoral fit and you see in the PPNC era, that Arabian groups had some horizon with the Levantines.
I think there was a bi-directional influence between Africa and Arabia in the Neolithic. These SKH samples that clearly got Neolithic Levantine-like ancestry could be of partly Arabian Peninsula origin. Why do I say this is a big possibility? Because I studied the trends of the Y-DNA of upstream E haplogroups. There seems to be a wide migration from Africa to Arabia on both Y-DNA and mtDNA basis, and there seems to be a migration from Arabia to Africa as well.
Arabians were cattle pastoralists, just like how the African Neolithic pastoralists were. Arabia used to be much greener, probably a very attractive place at times in the Neolithic, making Saharan people migrate there, likely introducing pre-Semitic Afro-Asiatic languages to Arabia. Later when Arabia probably dried up since the environmental conditions were grading towards aridification tremendously during the Neolithic, you likely had a migration from Arabia to Africa, and so this could have accompanied the sheep and the goat plus the Levantine-like pastoral DNA that we see in southwestern Libya.
All I am saying is, that I will not be surprised if in the future there will be a massive study (or -ies) that links Arabia and Saharan Africa, moreover, if we find Saharan samples somewhere in Arabia from the Neolithic, irrespective, if they made absolute autosomal impact, as opposed to uniparental phylogenetic effects we observe. In that sense, how we got Levantine-like ancestry is through the Central Saharan groups that moved into the Nile Valley region, another fact we can prove through haplogroups, as I have shown as well, in an earlier thread.
We also see Saharan haplogroups that went from Africa, to the Levant, and back again. The Neolithic history was way more dynamic with pastoral people than we have seen any research emphasis on. This will change in the future.
With regards to Neolithic farmers in Egypt. I think there were Levantine heavy sedentary peoples that lived in the Delta region but I doubt those had much of an effect on us because the Old Kingdom Upper Egyptians, the people who were the torch bearers of the later Dynasties went northwards and we know their genetics were damn near almost completely Natufian-like in the earliest days. They would be the first to get affected by a farmer's Levantine people. That is why I say the Saharans likely introduced that type of DNA instead. It came from the West, interestingly. Those ancient Egyptians only got considerable genetic change once post-unification. We have Saharan influence in our haplogroups as I demonstrated clearly in my previous thread.
Thank you very much sxb for your knowledge, your posts are always a delight to read!
Emir of Zayla
𝕹𝖆𝖙𝖎𝖔𝖓 𝖔𝖋 𝕻𝖔𝖊𝖙𝖘
I’ve seen a lot of people having discussions about this. Down below is an article of a guy who says that Horners have around 50-70% West-Eurasian dna on average depending on ethnicity.Someone spotlighted this study that the data points for early studies were flawed
Early Back-to-Africa Migration into the Horn of Africa - PMC
Genetic studies have identified substantial non-African admixture in the Horn of Africa (HOA). In the most recent genomic studies, this non-African ancestry has been attributed to admixture with Middle Eastern populations during the last few ...www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
Genetic affinities of the Cushitic, Ethiosemitic and North Omotic-speaking populations of the Horn of Africa
The ancestral origin of the Afro-Asiatic-speaking groups inhabiting the Horn of Africa has long been a subject of debate among scholars. In the 2000s, with the advent of genomics, a number of scien…
landofpunt.wordpress.com
Very interestingI’ve seen a lot of people having discussions about this. Down below is an article of a guy who says that Horners have around 50-70% West-Eurasian dna on average depending on ethnicity.
Genetic affinities of the Cushitic, Ethiosemitic and North Omotic-speaking populations of the Horn of Africa
The ancestral origin of the Afro-Asiatic-speaking groups inhabiting the Horn of Africa has long been a subject of debate among scholars. In the 2000s, with the advent of genomics, a number of scien…
ImpossibleI’ve seen a lot of people having discussions about this. Down below is an article of a guy who says that Horners have around 50-70% West-Eurasian dna on average depending on ethnicity.
Genetic affinities of the Cushitic, Ethiosemitic and North Omotic-speaking populations of the Horn of Africa
The ancestral origin of the Afro-Asiatic-speaking groups inhabiting the Horn of Africa has long been a subject of debate among scholars. In the 2000s, with the advent of genomics, a number of scien…
No horners has above 55%+ eursian unless if they’re mix from the parents
I’m Puntland
My 2c hair makes sense now
Almis
The Gulf of Berbera
So the average SM has the highest
DijboutiSo the average SM has the highest
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