Historical Medieval Maps

[Mckenzie]

Where are the haters who whitewash Somali history of the medieval era

View attachment 130089

Further to the above.

SOURCE

A Description of the Coasts of East Africa and Malabar in the Beginning of the Sixteenth Century

 

[HanWER]

Map shows Magog in modern day Azerbaijan

Was Cush a son of Ham? How the hell did he leave descedants in modern day Iraq/Bahrain? It throws a lot of cautious wind to the Cushitic Somali origin. We may have cousins stuck in the Middle East.

Nimrod was son of cush and ruled ancient babylon
So they could just be the descendents

 

[Mckenzie]

Watch out for grant

I've seen @Grant posts, i think we can reconcile our thoughts here.

Somalis did not identify as tribes until the Colonials came, hell they did not even identify as Somalis but rather mini states and republics (i.e Republic of Brava, 'Magadoxan', 'Adalites').

Another important point, Somalis have constantly warred and entire lineages have dissapeared, eclipsed by the current Somalis who are nomadic. There is a lot of proof for this, in the chronicles of Fatxul Xabash, the author states several Somali clans who aren't known today. Another example is in Bari, old clans like Kabtanle Harti who founded Bosaso have disappeared and today it's claimed by MJ, Dashishe etc.

HG for example was actually 8 lafs, now reduced to 4. The other half moved South and assimilated. Abgaal was 9 (Sagaal Abgaal) now reduced to 3.

I believe the Europeans have made Somalis laangaab. Had they not arrived at the scene, demographics would continue to change. We would never identify as HG, MJ, Abgaal, OG etc.

The term Somali was the nearest commonality of all the tribes as we are all related to Samaale one way or another.

It is like the Arabs being classed as 1 race called Arabia instead of Yemen, Algeria, Egypt etc.

 

[ReyRey]

The Maps aren't entirely accurate in terms of placing the areas correctly, i have seen some that place Merka above Xamar. Adel was closer to Puntland than Cote d'Adjan.

View attachment 130079

Lol i found this biblical map, who the F is Havilah and Sabtecha

View attachment 130080

I have a feeling that there's a lot we don't know about our history. Excavation is really needed. A huge chunk of Indian history was found through excavation. I wonder what we'll find in our own soils.

 

[Grant]

Further to the above.

View attachment 130127

SOURCE

A Description of the Coasts of East Africa and Malabar in the Beginning of the Sixteenth Century

Can anyone read this?

The Portuguese capture Baraawe in 1506, early 16th century. Do you see any mention of the Ajuraan? Ajuraan ships? Ajuraan protection?

The Kingdom of Magadoxo is not the Ajuraan......

According to Sidney R. Welch, who studied the Spanish and Portuguese archives, after Mir Ali Bey's first expedition down the East African coast, the King of Portugal in 1585 authorized Rui Lopez Salgado, the new captain of Malindi, "... to use the tributes from Pemba, Brava, and other islands of his jurisdiction; in order to maintain trim and armed, a cruiser for patrolling the coast of Guardafui." (1950, p. 75) During this period the Portuguese also had a fort and settlement at Bandel, seven miles from Mogadishu.

In part because of the cruiser and the message it sent to the Portuguese fleet in Goa, Mir Ali and all of his fleet and men were captured at Mombasa in 1589, three months after he entered the Indian Ocean. Mir Ali died a Catholic in Lisbon, and the Indian Ocean trade remained dominated by the Portuguese until the Omanis took over most of the Swahili coast after 1698. After Mir Ali, the Portuguese and Persians kept the Ottomans out, limited to a few Red Sea outposts.

There is no mention of the Ajuraan in the Spanish or Portuguese archives. Welch doesn't even have them in his index. Neither has any academic scholar been able to find any mention of them in any Egyptian or Ottoman source or in any other Muslim source outside of Somalia. Except in Somali tradition, and especially in the Hawiyye oral traditions, they are simply unknown.

Ajan is Azania."The word is derived from the Greek "azainein", meaning "dry". Some 2 000 years ago the area south of Ethiopia was called "Ajan" or "Azania"; according to experts the term referred to the area stretching down the coast of East Africa, from Somalia to Kenya."https://omalley.nelsonmandela.org/o...is derived from,Africa, from Somalia to Kenya.

 

[Mckenzie]

View attachment 130218
Can anyone read this?

The Portuguese capture Baraawe in 1506, early 16th century. Do you see any mention of the Ajuraan? Ajuraan ships? Ajuraan protection?

The Kingdom of Magadoxo is not the Ajuraan......

According to Sidney R. Welch, who studied the Spanish and Portuguese archives, after Mir Ali Bey's first expedition down the East African coast, the King of Portugal in 1585 authorized Rui Lopez Salgado, the new captain of Malindi, "... to use the tributes from Pemba, Brava, and other islands of his jurisdiction; in order to maintain trim and armed, a cruiser for patrolling the coast of Guardafui." (1950, p. 75) During this period the Portuguese also had a fort and settlement at Bandel, seven miles from Mogadishu.

In part because of the cruiser and the message it sent to the Portuguese fleet in Goa, Mir Ali and all of his fleet and men were captured at Mombasa in 1589, three months after he entered the Indian Ocean. Mir Ali died a Catholic in Lisbon, and the Indian Ocean trade remained dominated by the Portuguese until the Omanis took over most of the Swahili coast after 1698. After Mir Ali, the Portuguese and Persians kept the Ottomans out, limited to a few Red Sea outposts.

There is no mention of the Ajuraan in the Spanish or Portuguese archives. Welch doesn't even have them in his index. Neither has any academic scholar been able to find any mention of them in any Egyptian or Ottoman source or in any other Muslim source outside of Somalia. Except in Somali tradition, and especially in the Hawiyye oral traditions, they are simply unknown.

Ajan is Azania."The word is derived from the Greek "azainein", meaning "dry". Some 2 000 years ago the area south of Ethiopia was called "Ajan" or "Azania"; according to experts the term referred to the area stretching down the coast of East Africa, from Somalia to Kenya."https://omalley.nelsonmandela.org/omalley/cis/omalley/OMalleyWeb/03lv02424/04lv02730/05lv03188/06lv03192.htm#:~:text=The word is derived from,Africa, from Somalia to Kenya.

What exactly have you disproven?

1. Somalis were decentralised, especially Mogadishu which actually included Brava a much smaller entity, under its jurisdiction. They were not a hungry ambitious Superpower built on conquest as they never faced enemies since the Crusaders, but more a wealthy trading community and learnt folk that at best would have had a small fleet for network and trade. See the sources below.

2. There was no "Ajuran Empire" and i agree that using this term is incorrect. For only a few empires in the World at the time existed and had a sophisticated Navy. The Somalis were under their local authorities whom were closely related to patron Ajuran families. Besides oral literature, we have evidence of wells and many ruins all over Somalia dating back to the Ajuran era that I.M Lewis has attested to.

3. The Portugese and Ottomans were not explorers that studied Somali ppl but two Powers on each of our side at the time. The only known explorers who visited the Coast include Ibn Battuta, Ibn Said and few others.

We colluded with Mir Ali Bey as he was part of the Caliphate, just as Ethiopia solicited the Portugese for help defending Christianity. But ultimately they never occupied or colonised the crown jewel Xamar.

SOURCE The modern part of An universal history, from the earliest accounts to the present time (published in 1781)

SOURCE The Travels of Pedro Teixeira (published in 1802)

 

[Grant]

What exactly have you disproven?

1. Somalis were decentralised, especially Mogadishu which actually included Brava a much smaller entity, under its jurisdiction. They were not a hungry ambitious Superpower built on conquest as they never faced enemies since the Crusaders, but more a wealthy trading community and learnt folk that at best would have had a small fleet for network and trade. See the sources below.

2. There was no "Ajuran Empire" and i agree that using this term is incorrect. For only a few empires in the World at the time existed and had a sophisticated Navy. The Somalis were under their local authorities whom were closely related to patron Ajuran families. Besides oral literature, we have evidence of wells and many ruins all over Somalia dating back to the Ajuran era that I.M Lewis has attested to.

3. The Portugese and Ottomans were not explorers that studied Somali ppl but two Powers on each of our side at the time. The only known explorers who visited the Coast include Ibn Battuta, Ibn Said and few others.

We colluded with Mir Ali Bey as he was part of the Caliphate, just as Ethiopia solicited the Portugese for help defending Christianity. But ultimately they never occupied or colonised the crown jewel Xamar.

View attachment 130241

View attachment 130242

SOURCE The modern part of An universal history, from the earliest accounts to the present time (published in 1781)

View attachment 130245

SOURCE The Travels of Pedro Teixeira (published in 1802)

Your account covers only the first contact of the Portuguese with Mogadisho. The Portuguese later established a fort and settlement at Bandel, seven miles from Mog, and occasionally traded with the town when it had goods, but generally just blockaded it. Successive rinderpest infestations in the Shabelle basin and the Portuguese blockade reduced Mogadisho's trade to virtually nothing. The Portuguese drew off most of what Shabelle trade there was at Brava, which remained tributary to the Portuguese until the Omanis conquered Fort Jesus at Mombasa in 1698.

Mir Ali only made two expeditions down the coast, one to Lamu, which was successful because it was a surprise and the local chief, who had pledged allegiance to the Portuguese, changed sides; but Mir Ali did not collect enough loot to fund a second expedition. The Mogadisho merchants sent a messenger and money to Mir Ali at a port in the Red Sea for a second expedition, which ended in the disaster I described above. Mir Ali and his entire enterprise were captured at Mombasa and that was the end of the Ottomans in the Indian Ocean. Mog just died on the vine.

As stated in your quoted passages, the Portuguese did not like or trust the port at Mogadisho, and would not winter there or at any point to the north on the eastern coast. They held Brava and ignored or blockaded everything north of there. Mog and Merca weren't worth the candle, and everything north of Mog they considered useless desert. They eventually abandoned even Bandel.

The profitable areas were in India and south along the Swahili coast.

Brava was never under Mogadisho. The Portuguese took the town from the Tunni, who were said to have learned their lesson in 1506. It took the Omanis to change that, but not until after 1698.

 

[Mckenzie]

Your account covers only the first contact of the Portuguese with Mogadisho. The Portuguese later established a fort and settlement at Bandel, seven miles from Mog, and occasionally traded with the town when it had goods, but generally just blockaded it. Successive rinderpest infestations in the Shabelle basin and the Portuguese blockade reduced Mogadisho's trade to virtually nothing. The Portuguese drew off most of what Shabelle trade there was at Brava, which remained tributary to the Portuguese until the Omanis conquered Fort Jesus at Mombasa in 1698.

Bandel Velho was the old name of Warsheekh and it had an existing garrison since the Roman era, when it was still under Mogadishu (Serapion). It was an abandoned town in ruin when the Portugese travelled north after failing to capture Mogadishu. All they could do was sail to the Red Sea and carry out hit-and-run ransacking.

Bandel, corruption du mot arabe Ben'deur, port ou mouillage fréquenté, Velho , mot portugais, vieux. La particularité d'un promontoire touchant à ce point, d' après Ptolémée, qui dit le port et le promontoire de Saerapion. Y existait une ville dont on trouve des ruines enfouies dans le sable, et qui était déjà abandonnée lors de l'arrivée des Portugais, comme l'indique le nom de Bandel-Velho (vieux port) qu'ils lui donnèrent.

Bandel, corruption of the Arabic word Ben'deur, port or frequented anchorage, Velho, Portuguese word, old. The peculiarity of a promontory touching at this point, according to Ptolemy, is the port and the promontory of Saerapion. There existed a city of which one finds ruins buried in the sand and which was already abandoned when the Portuguese arrived, as indicated by the name of Bandel-Velho (old port) they gave him.

To address this

Mir Ali only made two expeditions down the coast, one to Lamu, which was successful because it was a surprise and the local chief, who had pledged allegiance to the Portuguese, changed sides; but Mir Ali did not collect enough loot to fund a second expedition. The Mogadisho merchants sent a messenger and money to Mir Ali at a port in the Red Sea for a second expedition, which ended in the disaster I described above. Mir Ali and his entire enterprise were captured at Mombasa and that was the end of the Ottomans in the Indian Ocean. Mog just died on the vine.

As stated in your quoted passages, the Portuguese did not like or trust the port at Mogadisho, and would not winter there or at any point to the north on the eastern coast. They held Brava and ignored or blockaded everything north of there. Mog and Merca weren't worth the candle, and everything north of Mog they considered useless desert. They eventually abandoned even Bandel.

The profitable areas were in India and south along the Swahili coast.

Brava was never under Mogadisho. The Portuguese took the town from the Tunni, who were said to have learned their lesson in 1506. It took the Omanis to change that, but not until after 1698.

My same source you quoted literally described Brava a ministate under the kingdom of Mogadishu. It was a republic at best but under the suzerainty of Mogadishu which is why the Bravans needed our help. I'll post another source if you still dispute it.

You seem to downplay Mogadishu significantly, ignoring the fact that it was the gateway to trade on the Indian Ocean.

The Portugese may have held the Swahili Coast but they weren't the only Power to setup a colony. Somalo-Sofala Gold Corporation

The reason you are putting Somalis down is because they are a proud people who don't yield very easily and never attest to the White Man

Ajan is Azania."The word is derived from the Greek "azainein", meaning "dry". Some 2 000 years ago the area south of Ethiopia was called "Ajan" or "Azania"; according to experts the term referred to the area stretching down the coast of East Africa, from Somalia to Kenya

Azania was a Western (Roman/Greek) term and Barbaria was an Eastern (Arab) term. Ajan and Adel are medieval era localities and quite modern compared to the aforementioned.

 

[Grant]

Bandel Velho was the old name of Warsheekh and it had an existing garrison since the Roman era, when it was still under Mogadishu (Serapion). It was an abandoned town in ruin when the Portugese travelled north after failing to capture Mogadishu. All they could do was sail to the Red Sea and carry out hit-and-run ransacking.





To address this



My same source you quoted literally described Brava a ministate under the kingdom of Mogadishu. It was a republic at best but under the suzerainty of Mogadishu which is why the Bravans needed our help. I'll post another source if you still dispute it.

View attachment 130429
You seem to downplay Mogadishu significantly, ignoring the fact that it was the gateway to trade on the Indian Ocean.

View attachment 130430

The Portugese may have held the Swahili Coast but they weren't the only Power to setup a colony. Somalo-Sofala Gold Corporation

View attachment 130434

The reason you are putting Somalis down is because they are a proud people who don't yield very easily and never attest to the White Man

View attachment 130436



Azania was a Western (Roman/Greek) term and Barbaria was an Eastern (Arab) term. Ajan and Adel are medieval era localities and quite modern compared to the aforementioned.

View attachment 130432

I'm sure there's a point there somewhere......

However and for instance:

https://books.google.com/books?id=uvAFRd1CtHMC&printsec=frontcover#v=onepage&q&f=false

The Somali clans don't even form until the 12th-13th centuries. They had no ships. The merchants in Mog were Shirazis, whose ships could not even make it to Sofala, for which reason Kilwa became the gold trading center in the 14th century.

This whole thing of a Somali colony is just another Wikipedia myth. The gold traded to the Arabs at Sofala and points north came from hard rock mines under the control of Great Zimbabwe. Mog was just the easiest location for Arabs coming from the Gulf to reach. It's like the cinnamon trade.

Did you notice in the Periplous map that the yellow dots on the eastern coast were controlled by Himyar and the gray-brown dots on the north and northeastern coasts were controlled by the Indo-Scythian kingdom?

You should read this:

Port Cities of the Horn

"In 1506, Barawa was reduced to ashes by the Portuguese fleet and became a major Portuguese port, but in league with other coastal towns, it liberated itself from Portuguese rule in 1758 when it became part of the coastal alliances led by the Zanzibar Sultanate " {Dates for Omani control differ; they took Fort Jesus from the Portuguese in 1698.}

Somalis are indeed persistent, but you are beating a dead horse.

 

[Adaawe]

@Dalalos check this out.

 

[Pipit]

Did you notice in the Periplous map that the yellow dots on the eastern coast were controlled by Himyar and the gray-brown dots on the north and northeastern coasts were controlled by the Indo-Scythian kingdom?

The gray dots mean that the ports were independent aka “Other”

Dark Green = Indo Scythian king
Gray = Other

None of the ports on the Somali coast were marked as dark green/Indo Sycthian

 

[Mckenzie]

I'm sure there's a point there somewhere......

However and for instance:

https://books.google.com/books?id=uvAFRd1CtHMC&printsec=frontcover#v=onepage&q&f=false

View attachment 130450

The Somali clans don't even form until the 12th-13th centuries. They had no ships. The merchants in Mog were Shirazis, whose ships could not even make it to Sofala, for which reason Kilwa became the gold trading center in the 14th century.

This whole thing of a Somali colony is just another Wikipedia myth. The gold traded to the Arabs at Sofala and points north came from hard rock mines under the control of Great Zimbabwe. Mog was just the easiest location for Arabs coming from the Gulf to reach. It's like the cinnamon trade.

Lol you call it a Wikipedia Myth but you're the one quoting a Safari Travel guide by a random Bob. Compare that to a Cambridge University text.

That's Mozambique, Uganda and the Maldives. We Wuz Rulers

Did you notice in the Periplous map that the yellow dots on the eastern coast were controlled by Himyar and the gray-brown dots on the north and northeastern coasts were controlled by the Indo-Scythian kingdom?

You should read this:

Port Cities of the Horn

"In 1506, Barawa was reduced to ashes by the Portuguese fleet and became a major Portuguese port, but in league with other coastal towns, it liberated itself from Portuguese rule in 1758 when it became part of the coastal alliances led by the Zanzibar Sultanate " {Dates for Omani control differ; they took Fort Jesus from the Portuguese in 1698.}

Somalis are indeed persistent, but you are beating a dead horse.

Anything prior to the 2nd Millenia isn't much to speculate over as that is mostly Pre Islamic Era. Somali history is at one with Muslim history which our ancestors were born into and this is what we are focusing on.

The only known link to the Ximyar dynasty besides trade, was the abtirsi of one of the Judges of Xamar (read Scott Reese). It's not conclusive. The earliest known settlers of Xamar are of Somali nomadic origin. Google the clans of Xamarweyne.

I have already conceded Brava, even though it was under our jurisdiction, it was a weak metropolitan governed by a council of elders, that till today has its own language. But you could not capture Mogadishu, our crown jewel even with your ships and your cannons!

 

[Grant]

Lol you call it a Wikipedia Myth but you're the one quoting a Safari Travel guide by a random Bob. Compare that to a Cambridge University text.

View attachment 130704

View attachment 130706

That's Mozambique, Uganda and the Maldives. We Wuz Rulers



Anything prior to the 2nd Millenia isn't much to speculate over as that is mostly Pre Islamic Era. Somali history is at one with Muslim history which our ancestors were born into and this is what we are focusing on.

The only known link to the Ximyar dynasty besides trade, was the abtirsi of one of the Judges of Xamar (read Scott Reese). It's not conclusive. The earliest known settlers of Xamar are of Somali nomadic origin. Google the clans of Xamarweyne.

I have already conceded Brava, even though it was under our jurisdiction, it was a weak metropolitan governed by a council of elders, that till today has its own language. But you could not capture Mogadishu, our crown jewel even with your ships and your cannons!

View attachment 130709

Nobody tried. The Portuguese held Mog's trade through Bandel and Brava and the blockade. They couldn't be bothered with the town itself, which had very little to offer in the 17th century.
That link you are disparaging is the University of Pennsylvania!
Go to "Home" for the full coverage and link.

 

[Afmad Gikuyu]

Found an old French map (date?) which is hella confusing. I only recognise the Mer De Barbarie which is what Somalis were called.

View attachment 130085

Another map of the late 1700s, it looks like Xamar became its own city-state and broke off Cote D'Adjan.

View attachment 130087

Why would they call Somali people Barbaric?
How were these maps mapped?

 

[Afmad Gikuyu]

I have a feeling that there's a lot we don't know about our history. Excavation is really needed. A huge chunk of Indian history was found through excavation. I wonder what we'll find in our own soils.

Especially in the Ocean where most ancient cities are submerged.

 

[James Dahl]

A lot of these maps are very distorted as there was poor understanding of the geography of Ethiopia. For instance the province of Bali is the Bale mountains, and Fatagar is where Addis Ababa is today.

 

[Awdalia Rising]

“The desert coast which produced little else than herds of wild beasts”

conveniently covering all of galdmudug all down south where another horde of wild beasts are found kkk

and what’s that off to the side “Negro’s bay” ?

 

[Pipit]

View attachment 136243

“The desert coast which produced little else than herds of wild beasts”

conveniently covering all of galdmudug all down south where another horde of wild beasts are found kkk

and what’s that off to the side “Negro’s bay” ?

Negro’s bay

 

[Octavian]

View attachment 136243

“The desert coast which produced little else than herds of wild beasts”

conveniently covering all of galdmudug all down south where another horde of wild beasts are found kkk

and what’s that off to the side “Negro’s bay” ?

negro's bay kulaha

 

[Pipit]

Why does it say “zeila” in the middle of DDS?