Gay and lesbian Somalis

[Periplus]

Love is Love because i don't make it a big deal. I am live and let live kinda single motherrrrr

 

[AdoonkaAlle]

I said, I support their right not to be discriminated against in a secular country, I never said I support or do not support their right to engage in homosexuality.

You are conflating an anti-discriminatory stance with supporting someone's actions.

Now you're just back tracking on your original stance after my criticism this is what you stated in the "pride thread"

I support gay rights for two reasons:

1. Islam instructs us not to force our religious beliefs on someone. Why should someone force their values on another person.

2. Most of us live in secular nations, i.e the government is unbiased when it comes to religion. If we are allowed to practice Islam, surely people are allowed to display their pride in who they are, as much as one may or may not agree with it.

I am happy that people are getting their deserved rights from a secular government. People cannot use religion as an excuse for denying people their rights when the entire governance system doesn't consider religion as an excuse for discrimination.

Then again

I said I support their rights in secular countries, I have said that in numerous threads.

In that thread, we were talking about Pride Month celebrated in Western countries so there was no need for me to add the addendum, but I can find numerous quotes from myself adding the addendum.

In that quote, you attached I say I am happy they are getting their rights from a secular government.


I was using the Islamic example because I do not intend of forcing my beliefs on someone in a country foreign to me.

I have never stated that I find it halal or haram or that I would support/not support it in a Muslim country.

Nice try tho.

And again if it wasn't clear enough

Yes, those things are haram but I am not going to stop people from doing those things in a Western country. That is my underlying point.

I support their right to drink, do zina in their own country. I will not do those things and will not want my family to do it.

The same goes for LGBT, I support their right to do it in a secular country which supposed to provide rights for everybody. However, I am not going to partake or support or not support them.

You posts betray you terribly, the right for lgbt people to do what now ?

 

[Periplus]

Now you're just back tracking on your original stance after my criticism this is what you stated in the "pride thread"




Then again



And again if it wasn't clear enough




You posts betray you terribly, the right for lgbt people to do what now ?

And if you looked at my original definition of what I consider rights on the Pride thread, you will find this definition:

I mean they are also a minority group that faces discrimination.

You do not have to like them but you also have to see the logic of seeing why its important to have anti-discrimination laws for them.

Even in the quote you highlighted from that thread, I say this in the last sentence:

People cannot use religion as an excuse for denying people their rights when the entire governance system doesn't consider religion as an excuse for discrimination.

Stop cherry-picking my quotes.

 

[AdoonkaAlle]

I never said Muslims were denied rights but I said if you dismantle the rights of a minority in a Western country, it allows for the dismantling of your rights.

This is called legal precedence, you can read about it here:

Precedent - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Protecting the non-discrimination of all minorities is already a well-established fact.

This is called minority rights, it provides us and them the freedom to exist, you can read it here:

Precedent - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

How are you going to make an argument with me about law and governance without having basic knowledge on these founding principles.

It is like me talking about the Japanese grammar despite not knowing one word of Japanese.

You were insuinating that unless muslims advocate for lgbt rights we risk losing our rights as minorities. My reply to it was to show you we don't need to advocate or support lgbt rights to gain our rights as this assumption of yours was a false alternative

As for your condescending statement of whether I get tired of justifying unislamic positions, each religious argument I have had with you has been due to you calling me out not the other way around.

Also, you were the one that refused to admit that one should not marry more than once if they could not afford it despite it being a well established part of the Shafiici madhab.

I still never received any proof from you that Shafiici encouraged polygamy or supported people who could not afford polygamy to marry more than once.

And you say I try to justify un-Islamic positions.

What you're promoting is actual deviancy sxb this is why we're having these arguments. How can you claim to follow islam yet support people to commit zina, drink alcohol, homosexuality and all manners of haram ? are you aware the severity of your actions ?

Where did i claim that shafici said that people who're not financially stable could practice polygamy ? what i stated was you were portraying your opinions as facts by claiming that,

1.majority of somali men back home were not financially stable, married young virgin women as second wives ,
2. generalizing the instances where injustices happened in polygamy to constituting as majority
3. Polygamy ruined somali even though the same problems you cited also occurred in monogamy

Your entire argument for claiming that polygamy ruined somalis was because those who practiced it didn't do it according to what islam states. It like claiming islam ruined somalis because somalis aren't practising diinta correctly

Compared to the polygamy thread what you're advocating for in this thread is far more severe.

 

[TheManWhoIsAlive]

Its offical, the LGBT community is increasing in the Somali community, every farah and halimo is coming out gay, bi, trans etc.
Go on tik tok? You will see for yourself!!!!
They proudly display there colourful flags on there socials☹Parents seem also relaxed and supportive of there children's way of life?
Is this a punishment from god? Whats the cause of this influx of gays/lesbians?

They were already gay. They're just coming out now cause it's safe.

 

[Periplus]

@AdoonkaAlle

My argument was that by attacking the rights of LGBT people in secular societies it weakens the protection of our rights. This is an accepted fact in law.

I never said I support people to commit zina, homosexuality or drink alcohol, I said those who already do such things should not be discriminated against in a secular country. I have stated numerous times that my definition of rights, is the prevention of discrimination.

As for the polygamy thread, I said that the way polygamy was practiced in Somalia destroyed our society. I did not say polygamy as a practice was bad. In fact, I stated in my first post on that thread that if you have money, you can marry more than one wife.

The vast majority of Somalis (over 70%) live with less $2 a day. Shouldn't there be safeguards to prevent these people from taking up second wives?

As I told you on that thread and I will tell you again, read the statements people make before responding.

 

[AdoonkaAlle]

And if you looked at my original definition of what I consider rights on the Pride thread, you will find this definition:



Even in the quote you highlighted from that thread, I say this in the last sentence:





Stop cherry-picking my quotes.

Lgbt people face discrimination because they engage in homosexual acts, anti-discrimination laws are based on this fact. So when you claim you're supporting anti-discrimination laws you're in fact supporting them not to be discriminated because they practice homosexuality and chose to identify as such

You're in denial mode because you realise the gravity of your actual position when it relates to lgbt and how it's not compatible with islam. 2 contradicting views to have

 

[Periplus]

Lgbt people face discrimination because they engage in homosexual acts, anti-discrimination laws are based on this fact. So when you claim you're supporting anti-discrimination laws you're in fact supporting them not to be discriminated because they practice homosexuality and chose to identify as such

You're in denial mode because you realise the gravity of your actual position when it relates to lgbt and how it's not compatible with islam. 2 contradicting views to have

I support your right to criticise and rail against anything you deem unfit. Everything you said in this thread is criticism of homosexuality not discrimination. That is protected under free speech legislation in many countries, especially the First Amendment in the US.

There is a difference between criticising and discriminating.

 

[AdoonkaAlle]

@AdoonkaAlle

My argument was that by attacking the rights of LGBT people in secular societies it weakens the protection of our rights. This is an accepted fact in law.

I never said I support people to commit zina, homosexuality or drink alcohol, I said those who already do such things should not be discriminated against in a secular country. I have stated numerous times that my definition of rights, is the prevention of discrimination.

What you don't realise is that rallying with the lgbt lot comes with it's own problems namely it leads to the acceptance and normalization of their haram life choices among muslims. This is fairly clear considering the amount of muslims coming out as gays or supporting it wholeheartedly.

If stating the correct view of islam regarding homosexuality is considered an "attack" by muslims themselves then of what significance is there in protecting our rights as muslims ? why should you support lgbt to be proud of their identity at the expense of your identity as a muslim ?

Yes you did and continue to do so, you think you're doing yourself a favour but you're not sxb. Muslims also commit these action in secular countries what then ? Why are you continuing to equate islamic commands to abstain from supporting haram to any sort of decriminalization in secular countries ?

Are the people who're already engaged in zina, homosexuality not doing these actions ? are these actions not haram, then why in the world are you supporting people to commit these actions ? you're advocating the right for an individual to commit haram actions this fact doesn't change. What is forcing you to do this ? why are these people entitled for your advocacy & support ?

As for the polygamy thread, I said that the way polygamy was practiced in Somalia destroyed our society. I did not say polygamy as a practice was bad. In fact, I stated in my first post on that thread that if you have money, you can marry more than one wife.

The vast majority of Somalis (over 70%) live with less $2 a day. Shouldn't there be safeguards to prevent these people from taking up second wives?

As I told you on that thread and I will tell you again, read the statements people make before responding.

What made polygamy bad ? because it wasn't practised correctly, the same people who do this don't also practice islam correctly Will you then blame islam for people not acting according to islam ? answer is no, similarly you don't blame polygamy when people chose not to follow what islam says regarding polygamy.

Where did you get the stats? let's assume it's true for arguments sake does this mean that one can't take care of needs of a family because of it especially in badiyo where people rely on their animals ?

Forget taking up second wives they shouldn't be even taking a wife wouldn't that be more logical given they only live with less than $2 a day ? i mean you should be stopping them from even getting married at all by all account ?

 

[Periplus]

What you don't realise is that rallying with the lgbt lot comes with it's own problems namely it leads to the acceptance and normalization of their haram life choices among muslims. This is fairly clear considering the amount of muslims coming out as gays or supporting it wholeheartedly.

What it leads to is another problem. If you do not want this lifestyle, I am sure there are Islamic schools to put your children in that will teach them views that align with your outlook.

If stating the correct view of islam regarding homosexuality is considered an "attack" by muslims themselves then of what significance is there in protecting our rights as muslims ? why should you support lgbt to be proud of their identity at the expense of your identity as a muslim ?

You are protected under the First Amendment and other free speech legislation to say what you want. If people call it an attack, that is also their free speech. But what matters is that you are allowed to speak your mind and criticise people, why do you think KKK is a legalised organisation? Because they are practicing their free speech. I am not comparing you to them but I'm giving an example of even the most extreme views being protected.

Yes you did and continue to do so, you think you're doing yourself a favour but you're not sxb. Muslims also commit these action in secular countries what then ? Why are you continuing to equate islamic commands to abstain from supporting haram to any sort of decriminalization in secular countries ?

Are the people who're already engaged in zina, homosexuality not doing these actions ? are these actions not haram, then why in the world are you supporting people to commit these actions ? you're advocating the right for an individual to commit haram actions this fact doesn't change. What is forcing you to do this ? why are these people entitled for your advocacy & support ?

Let me be clear: I have never advocated anyone to do any of these actions but I support those that have already done these actions be protected from discrimination in secular countries.

What made polygamy bad ? because it wasn't practised correctly, the same people who do this don't also practice islam correctly Will you then blame islam for people not acting according to islam ? answer is no, similarly you don't blame polygamy when people chose not to follow what islam says regarding polygamy.

I did not blame polygamy as whole, I said polygamy in Somalia. That heavily implies that I was referring to how it is practiced in Somalia.

Where did you get the stats? let's assume it's true for arguments sake does this mean that one can't take care of needs of a family because of it especially in badiyo where people rely on their animals ?

The statistics are from the World Bank's international poverty analysis and many other organisations have provided similar stats.

If you are seriously going to argue that someone on less than $2 a day can provide for all their multiple families, you are being ridiculous. School is not free in Somalia, remember.

Forget taking up second wives they shouldn't be even taking a wife wouldn't that be more logical given they only live with less than $2 a day ? i mean you should be stopping them from even getting married at all by all account ?

Somalis should have not get married or have children if they cannot afford it. But how can I argue about that when there are people that have four wives but remain on $2 a day.

 

[AdoonkaAlle]

I support your right to criticise and rail against anything you deem unfit. Everything you said in this thread is criticism of homosexuality not discrimination. That is protected under free speech legislation in many countries, especially the First Amendment in the US.

There is a difference between criticising and discriminating.

If a muslim school refuses to hire a homosexual to teach at their school, wouldn't this not constitute discrimination of lgbt ? if muslims refuse their children not to be taught about lgbt or support the banning of homosexuality are these not discrimination ?

Muslims, christians, etc who choose to speak up against homosexuality face backlash, they get cancelled, some even get fired from their jobs etc the list is long .

You explicitly stated that you both support their right to do what they want and not be discriminated for it. There's no hiding it as it's very explicit sxb.

 

[Periplus]

If a muslim school refuses to hire a homosexual to teach at their school, wouldn't this not constitute discrimination of lgbt ? if muslims refuse their children not to be taught about lgbt or support the banning of homosexuality are these not discrimination ?

Many Western countries accomodate religious freedom legislation, allowing Muslim/Christian businesses/schools rights to run it how they see fit.

Muslims, christians, etc who choose to speak up against homosexuality face backlash, they get cancelled, some even get fired from their jobs etc the list is long .

It is your right to say whatever you want but it is also other people's right to criticise you. If an employer is going to fire you over your beliefs, why would you want to work there anyways?

You explicitly stated that you both support their right to do what they want and not be discriminated for it. There's no hiding it as it's very explicit sxb.

If someone is homosexual or non-muslim or whatever in a secular country, it does not concern me. I also would not want those people to be discriminated in their own country.

This is a very simple argument.

 

[Omar del Sur]

If someone is homosexual or non-muslim or whatever in a secular country, it does not concern me. I also would not want those people to be discriminated in their own country.

This is a very simple argument.

Why do you defend lgbt?

 

[Periplus]

Why do you defend lgbt?

Why do you support the drug dealing Taliban?

Don't make me pull out the extensive evidence of them promoting the international drug trade.

You are in no position to criticise me.

 

[AdoonkaAlle]

What it leads to is another problem. If you do not want this lifestyle, I am sure there are Islamic schools to put your children in that will teach them views that align with your outlook.

My point was addressing your claim that by attacking lgbt rights we're weakning our rights. Advocating for lgbt rights also weakens our right to namely the right to oppose it. You can't advocate for a right that goes against your beliefs. Tell how many lgbt champion the right of muslim to view homosexuality as moral deviancy ?

Let me be clear: I have never advocated anyone to do any of these actions but I support those that have already done these actions be protected from discrimination in secular countries.

there's no difference sxb i mean are the same people who've done it before not going to do it again and again ? you're advocating for people to practice zina, homosexuality drink alcohol etc who told you advocate for such things ? do you believe that you're obeying Allah for advocating what he forbade ? You wouldn't support muslims who've done such actions before in muslim countries but you would support them if they resided in secular non muslim countries ?

I did not blame polygamy as whole, I said polygamy in Somalia. That heavily implies that I was referring to how it is practiced in Somalia.

But the question is why ? you were implying how it's practiced wasn't correct meaning those engaged in it were not acting in accordance with the islamic ruling regarding polygamy. Nonetheless you still continued to blame polygamy for our ruin, i used the example of people not practicing islam as an example to make you realise your mistake but you still continue

[/QUOTE]

The statistics are from the World Bank's international poverty analysis and many other organisations have provided similar stats.

If you are seriously going to argue that someone on less than $2 a day can provide for all their multiple families, you are being ridiculous. School is not free in Somalia, remember.

Somalis should have not get married or have children if they cannot afford it. But how can I argue about that when there are people that have four wives but remain on $2 a day.

Forget a second wife that amount isn't possible to sustain even one wife, why have you not blamed monogamous marriage for our ruin ?

Out of curiosity do you believe that promoting and advocating for alcohol, zina, homosexuality ruins a society ?

 

[Omar del Sur]

Why do you support the drug dealing Taliban?

Don't make me pull out the extensive evidence of them promoting the international drug trade.

I don't care. I am proud to sympathize with them. They are fighting for their religion and their country.

Anyways, it just shows how you're a sellout. You defend lgbt and attack the taliban. If white people were against lgbt, I assume you'd be against it too.

 

[Muzaffer]

Why do you support the drug dealing Taliban?

Don't make me pull out the extensive evidence of them promoting the international drug trade.

You are in no position to criticise me.

 

[AdoonkaAlle]

Many Western countries accomodate religious freedom legislation, allowing Muslim/Christian businesses/schools rights to run it how they see fit.

I asked does that not constitute discrimination of lgbt ?

It is your right to say whatever you want but it is also other people's right to criticise you. If an employer is going to fire you over your beliefs, why would you want to work there anyways?

What if i didn't have an option ? what then why should i loose my job for acting in accordance to my freedom of speech ? isn't this not a discrimination of my rights as a muslim ?

If someone is homosexual or non-muslim or whatever in a secular country, it does not concern me. I also would not want those people to be discriminated in their own country.

This is a very simple argument.

Since it doesn't concern you why support them ? knowing fully well that your support of them is haram and disobedience to Allah ?

 

[Periplus]

there's no difference sxb i mean are the same people who've done it before not going to do it again and again ? you're advocating for people to practice zina, homosexuality drink alcohol etc who told you advocate for such things ? do you believe that you're obeying Allah for advocating what he forbade ? You wouldn't support muslims who've done such actions before in muslim countries but you would support them if they resided in secular non muslim countries ?

I do not advocate.

The definition to advocate is to recommend and support. I have never recommended people to be homosexuals and I have never supported anyone to become homosexual.

But the question is why ? you were implying how it's practiced wasn't correct meaning those engaged in it were not acting in accordance with the islamic ruling regarding polygamy. Nonetheless you still continued to blame polygamy for our ruin, i used the example of people not practicing islam as an example to make you realise your mistake but you still continue

Those that make $2 a day, which is the majority of Somalia should not have a second wife.

If you are financially stable, then I support their right to have more than one wife.

I believe that is in line with the Shafiici school of thought. Prove me wrong.

Forget a second wife that amount isn't possible to sustain even one wife, why have you not blamed monogamous marriage for our ruin ?

Out of curiosity do you believe that promoting and advocating for alcohol, zina, homosexuality ruins a society ?

I said people that cannot afford it should not marry or have children. You are ruining the life of your future wife and children if you cannot afford to provide for a sustainable wellbeing.

In the context of Somalia, the ruin of our society has not been homosexuality, zina and alcohol.

Are you going to argue with me on that?

 

[Periplus]

What if i didn't have an option ? what then why should i loose my job for acting in accordance to my freedom of speech ? isn't this not a discrimination of my rights as a muslim ?

It is your right to say what you want but it is also your employer's right to not want to hire you.

That is how a free society works. If you owned a business, you can fire people that do not align with your beliefs.

Since it doesn't concern you why support them ? knowing fully well that your support of them is haram and disobedience to Allah ?

I have already explained this again and again.

Look at my other responses to you when you have asked the same question.