Freedom of Religion law reversed

[Supasta]

Sharia gives puberty as a minimum then it is the father’s discretion alongside a judge’s approval, nothing about arbitrary ages.

What’s your point? Are you claiming this goes against the Shari’ah? I honestly find it frustrating when people with barely a cursory understanding of usul al-fiqh make sweeping claims about Islamic law.

So let me ask you directly, do you believe that a ruler or government can place restrictions on what Allah made Mubah (permissible)?

And just a side note: I’m assuming you don’t actually mean that the minimum criteria is exactly as you stated, with no additional conditions or context? If yes explain, if no, no need to explain.

 

[Kun_Ciil]

Sharia gives puberty as a minimum then it is the father’s discretion alongside a judge’s approval, nothing about arbitrary ages.

It’s clear no doubt that someone is balaagh reached the age of maturity as soon as they hit puberty, for girls and boys. They are treated as full adults, held accountable for their actions and they must fullfil their obligations as Muslims.

However, a question I have is let’s say the government accepts the Shariah stance of maturity. Laakin say for the protection of young children in the current environment and the fear of them being taken advantage of and being forced into early marriages. The state makes the age of marriage, 18 & 16 with parents consent. So that young girls can make their own decisions with more awareness and maturity. Because let’s be honest a 13-15 year old girl in Somalia if her parents force her into marriage, she’s still too young and obedient to her parents to have a mind of her own.

I think increasing the age of marriage will protect a lot of young girls, mostly since a lot of them are from poor families who are forcefully married out. Most Somali city dwellers who have a decent income, send their girls to dugsi/school/uni and would never entertain the idea of their daughter getting married at 13-16.

Is the dowlad going against Gods law in this matter? Or is there leeway for them to change things due to circumstances, which is in this case to prevent girls getting married off at young ages which could lead to abuse and coercion? Could this be seen as instead protecting another part of the Shariah I.e Girls not being forced into marriage against their will?

 

[Ultra Opinionated]

It’s clear no doubt that someone is balaagh reached the age of maturity as soon as they hit puberty, for girls and boys. They are treated as full adults, held accountable for their actions and they must fullfil their obligations as Muslims.

However, a question I have is let’s say the government accepts the Shariah stance of maturity. Laakin say for the protection of young children in the current environment and the fear of them being taken advantage of and being forced into early marriages. The state makes the age of marriage, 18 & 16 with parents consent. So that young girls can make their own decisions with more awareness and maturity. Because let’s be honest a 13-15 year old girl in Somalia if her parents force her into marriage, she’s still too young and obedient to her parents to have a mind of her own.

I think increasing the age of marriage will protect a lot of young girls, mostly since a lot of them are from poor families who are forcefully married out. Most Somali city dwellers who have a decent income, send their girls to dugsi/school/uni and would never entertain the idea of their daughter getting married at 13-16.

Is the dowlad going against Gods law in this matter? Or is there leeway for them to change things due to circumstances, which is in this case to prevent girls getting married off at young ages which could lead to abuse and coercion? Could this be seen as instead protecting another part of the Shariah I.e Girls not being forced into marriage against their will?

I’m just repeating what the consensus of the scholars is.

Child marriage isn’t that common these days and is naturally decreasing. Of course another issue is that economic maturity financial responsibility as mentioned in the Quran, which no 16 year old has.

 

[Supasta]

I’m just repeating what the consensus of the scholars is.

Child marriage isn’t that common these days and is naturally decreasing. Of course another issue is that economic maturity financial responsibility as mentioned in the Quran, which no 16 year old has.

Child marriage is unfortunately very common in Somalia, over 45% of Somali girls aged 20 to 24 were married at least once before reaching the age of 18.

Also, can you ever answer my earlier question?

 

[Midas]

What’s your point? Are you claiming this goes against the Shari’ah? I honestly find it frustrating when people with barely a cursory understanding of usul al-fiqh make sweeping claims about Islamic law.

So let me ask you directly, do you believe that a ruler or government can place restrictions on what Allah made Mubah (permissible)?

And just a side note: I’m assuming you don’t actually mean that the minimum criteria is exactly as you stated, with no additional conditions or context? If yes explain, if no, no need to explain.

The ruler can 100% place restrictions on what is allowed especially if its not an obligatory action. Why do people think concubines dont exist anymore ?

 

[Kun_Ciil]

What’s your point? Are you claiming this goes against the Shari’ah? I honestly find it frustrating when people with barely a cursory understanding of usul al-fiqh make sweeping claims about Islamic law.

So let me ask you directly, do you believe that a ruler or government can place restrictions on what Allah made Mubah (permissible)?

And just a side note: I’m assuming you don’t actually mean that the minimum criteria is exactly as you stated, with no additional conditions or context? If yes explain, if no, no need to explain.

I’m no student of knowledge, and still learning my basics. However, a thought that came into my mind earlier is for example, say a boy or girl age 12/13/14/15 commits murder. Is the Islamic xad carried out on them if they have reached the age of puberty?

I saw this link from Islamic web and there is this Hadith

السن التي توقع فيها عقوبة القصاص

تتناول هذه الصفحة مسألة البلوغ وعقوبة القصاص في حالة القتل العمد. إذا قام صبي عمره خمس عشرة سنة بقتل رجل متعمداً، فهل يُقتص منه؟ يُعرف البلوغ بظهور علامات مثل الاحتلام أو علامات الإنبات، وعند عدم ظهورها يُحكم بالبلوغ عند بلوغ الصبي خمس عشرة سنة قمرية حسب رأي الشافعية والحنابلة. أما المالكية...

www.islamweb.net

Narrated Ibn `Umar:
Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) called me to present myself in front of him or the eve of the battle of Uhud, while I was fourteen years of age at that time, and he did not allow me to take part in that battle, but he called me in front of him on the eve of the battle of the Trench when I was fifteen years old, and he allowed me (to join the battle)." Nafi` said, "I went to `Umar bin `Abdul `Aziz who was Caliph at that time and related the above narration to him, He said, "This age (fifteen) is the limit between childhood and manhood," and wrote to his governors to give salaries to those who reached the age of fifteen.

And the Sheikh says, the Shafici, Hanbali see the limit of the age of maturity as 15 for the one who hasn’t showed signs of puberty. So a child if he’s over 15 the punishment is applied to him, and if he is under 15 then it’s blood money. So it shows that the age of maturity has to be looked at and discerned by a judge. And in turn couldn’t it be discerned by the state? Doesnt marriage fit this criteria?

@reer @Galool @Ultra Opinionated @Guure⁸ @cunug3aad

Can you clear this up for me? At what age is the Xad established? Is it straight from the onset of the signs of puberty or from the age of 15? Even the link above is saying that the Maliki and Hanafi madhabs see the age of maturity for a boy as 18? Whereas Shaafic and Hanbali say 15 is the limit….

 

[Guure⁸]

Child marriage is unfortunately very common in Somalia, over 45% of Somali girls aged 20 to 24 were married at least once before reaching the age of 18.

Also, can you ever answer my earlier question?

Where are u getting these stats from?

 

[Guure⁸]

I’m no student of knowledge, and still learning my basics. However, a thought that came into my mind earlier is for example, say a boy or girl age 12/13/14/15 commits murder. Is the Islamic xad carried out on them if they have reached the age of puberty?

I saw this link from Islamic web and there is this Hadith

السن التي توقع فيها عقوبة القصاص

تتناول هذه الصفحة مسألة البلوغ وعقوبة القصاص في حالة القتل العمد. إذا قام صبي عمره خمس عشرة سنة بقتل رجل متعمداً، فهل يُقتص منه؟ يُعرف البلوغ بظهور علامات مثل الاحتلام أو علامات الإنبات، وعند عدم ظهورها يُحكم بالبلوغ عند بلوغ الصبي خمس عشرة سنة قمرية حسب رأي الشافعية والحنابلة. أما المالكية...

www.islamweb.net

Narrated Ibn `Umar:
Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) called me to present myself in front of him or the eve of the battle of Uhud, while I was fourteen years of age at that time, and he did not allow me to take part in that battle, but he called me in front of him on the eve of the battle of the Trench when I was fifteen years old, and he allowed me (to join the battle)." Nafi` said, "I went to `Umar bin `Abdul `Aziz who was Caliph at that time and related the above narration to him, He said, "This age (fifteen) is the limit between childhood and manhood," and wrote to his governors to give salaries to those who reached the age of fifteen.

And the Sheikh says, the Shafici, Hanbali see the limit of the age of maturity as 15 for the one who hasn’t showed signs of puberty. So a child if he’s over 15 the punishment is applied to him, and if he is under 15 then it’s blood money. So it’s show that the age of maturity has to be looked at and discerned by a judge. So shouldn’t marriage be the same?

@reer @Galool @Ultra Opinionated @Guure⁸ @cunug3aad

Can you clear this up for me? At what age is the Xad established? Is it straight from the onset of the signs of puberty or from the age of 15?

Idk walal I'm a layman myself

 

[Supasta]

Where are u getting these stats from?

Currently, the data set I’m working with is from UNICEF.

 

[Supasta]

The ruler can 100% place restrictions on what is allowed especially if its not an obligatory action. Why do people think concubines dont exist anymore ?

Yes, of course. A lot of people don’t really have an understanding of usul fiqh in general. that leads them to make blanket statements they think it’s right because they feel it’s right.

I was asking him these questions so he could actually think, but I don’t think he wants to be engaged anymore.

 

[Kun_Ciil]

Currently, the data set I’m working with is from UNICEF.

Tbh a lot of data on Somalia is exaggerated. In the major cities in Somalia I don’t think its
common for girls under 18 to get married. In the North I know for a fact that they get married later at 25+. In the south it’s varies between regions, rural and urban, and even different clan groups. For example, in Xamar it’s not a social norm or accepted for a guy to ask for 13-16 year olds girls hand in marriage. Most families would say “no my daughter is too young, she’s still in education and not ready for marriage.”

This issue is mainly a rural one. For example, Somali Bantu see it the law of nature for a girl to get married as soon as she reaches the age of puberty 12–14(that’s why they are growing in population dramatically in the south) Whereas ethnic Somalis get married to girls in the 15-25 age group.

 

[Supasta]

Tbh a lot of data on Somalia is exaggerated. In the major cities in Somalia I don’t think its
common for girls under 18 to get married. In the North I know for a fact that they get married later at 25+. In the south it’s varies between regions, rural and urban, and even different clan groups. For example, in Xamar it’s not a social norm or accepted for a guy to ask for 13-16 year olds girls hand in marriage. Most families would say “no my daughter is too young, she’s still in education and not ready for marriage.”

This issue is mainly a rural one. For example, Somali Bantu see it the law of nature for a girl to get married as soon as she reaches the age of puberty 12–14(that’s why they are growing in population dramatically in the south) Whereas ethnic Somalis get married to girls in the 15-25 age group.

I’ve travelled pretty extensively across Somalia, through cities and rural area, and honestly, child marriage is still very common, granted more in the countryside but still pretty prevalent in the cities too. Most of the girls getting married that young come from really poor, vulnerable families whose parents are struggling just to survive. A lot of them marry their daughters off because they desperately need the money.

In every major city, you’ll see young girls carrying babies on their backs, selling peanuts, or begging on the streets. I’ve been to almost 13 out of Somalia’s 18 regions, and it’s the same story everywhere.

I don’t think it’s fair to downplay this issue, it only helps hide the problem and allows the exploitation of the most vulnerable to continue. Families who are doing okay would never marry off their daughters that young. But for families who can’t afford school fees or even daily meals, marrying off their girls feels like the only way to reduce the burden.

I know what I’m saying is anecdotal, but if you dismiss the UN statistics, then all I can do is share what I’ve personally seen with my own eyes. But without a doubt, anybody who travels throughout Somalia will see it, it’s incredibly apparent.

 

[Guure⁸]

Currently, the data set I’m working with is from UNICEF.

Send the link

 

[cunug3aad]

I’m no student of knowledge, and still learning my basics. However, a thought that came into my mind earlier is for example, say a boy or girl age 12/13/14/15 commits murder. Is the Islamic xad carried out on them if they have reached the age of puberty?

I saw this link from Islamic web and there is this Hadith

السن التي توقع فيها عقوبة القصاص

تتناول هذه الصفحة مسألة البلوغ وعقوبة القصاص في حالة القتل العمد. إذا قام صبي عمره خمس عشرة سنة بقتل رجل متعمداً، فهل يُقتص منه؟ يُعرف البلوغ بظهور علامات مثل الاحتلام أو علامات الإنبات، وعند عدم ظهورها يُحكم بالبلوغ عند بلوغ الصبي خمس عشرة سنة قمرية حسب رأي الشافعية والحنابلة. أما المالكية...

www.islamweb.net

Narrated Ibn `Umar:
Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) called me to present myself in front of him or the eve of the battle of Uhud, while I was fourteen years of age at that time, and he did not allow me to take part in that battle, but he called me in front of him on the eve of the battle of the Trench when I was fifteen years old, and he allowed me (to join the battle)." Nafi` said, "I went to `Umar bin `Abdul `Aziz who was Caliph at that time and related the above narration to him, He said, "This age (fifteen) is the limit between childhood and manhood," and wrote to his governors to give salaries to those who reached the age of fifteen.

And the Sheikh says, the Shafici, Hanbali see the limit of the age of maturity as 15 for the one who hasn’t showed signs of puberty. So a child if he’s over 15 the punishment is applied to him, and if he is under 15 then it’s blood money. So it shows that the age of maturity has to be looked at and discerned by a judge. And in turn couldn’t it be discerned by the state? Doesnt marriage fit this criteria?

@reer @Galool @Ultra Opinionated @Guure⁸ @cunug3aad

Can you clear this up for me? At what age is the Xad established? Is it straight from the onset of the signs of puberty or from the age of 15? Even the link above is saying that the Maliki and Hanafi madhabs see the age of maturity for a boy as 18? Whereas Shaafic and Hanbali say 15 is the limit….

In the fatwa
قال مالك: الأمر المجمع عليه عندنا: أن لا قود بين الصبيان، وأن قتلهم خطأ ما لم تجب الحدود، ويبلغوا الحلم، وإن قتل الصبي لا يكون إلا خطأ. ومعنى القود: القصاص.
Maalik said: "The matter that is agreed upon with us: that there is no qawd between/for boys [i.e. children], and that their killing is a mistake unless the xadd is necessary, and they have reached maturity, and if a boy is killed it is not except a mistake." And the meaning of qawd is retribution

The fatwa is mainly talking about the cases of children who have not shown signs of maturity and that they cannot be held to xadd until they are 15 lunar years old, this quote i think shows that signs of maturity also act as a boundary for xadd, can be seen in the phrase بلغ الحلم literally meaning to reach the [wet] dream

 

[Ultra Opinionated]

What’s your point? Are you claiming this goes against the Shari’ah? I honestly find it frustrating when people with barely a cursory understanding of usul al-fiqh make sweeping claims about Islamic law.

So let me ask you directly, do you believe that a ruler or government can place restrictions on what Allah made Mubah (permissible)?

And just a side note: I’m assuming you don’t actually mean that the minimum criteria is exactly as you stated, with no additional conditions or context? If yes explain, if no, no need to explain.

Leaders should not do this. Quran says not to make the forbidden permissible, and the permissible forbidden.

 

[Kun_Ciil]

In the fatwa
قال مالك: الأمر المجمع عليه عندنا: أن لا قود بين الصبيان، وأن قتلهم خطأ ما لم تجب الحدود، ويبلغوا الحلم، وإن قتل الصبي لا يكون إلا خطأ. ومعنى القود: القصاص.
Maalik said: "The matter that is agreed upon with us: that there is no qawd between/for boys [i.e. children], and that their killing is a mistake unless the xadd is necessary, and they have reached maturity, and if a boy is killed it is not except a mistake." And the meaning of qawd is retribution

The fatwa is mainly talking about the cases of children who have not shown signs of maturity and that they cannot be held to xadd until they are 15 lunar years old, this quote i think shows that signs of maturity also act as a boundary for xadd, can be seen in the phrase بلغ الحلم literally meaning to reach the [wet] dream

So a boy that is 12, but has reached puberty I.e able to have wet dreams then the Xad is applied to him? And so likewise if a girl reaches the age of menustration then the Xad is applicable to her as well.

@Supasta you said earlier in matters of usool of fiqh the ruler can restrict what is permissible? In this case, marriage which is Halal as long as a girl reaches the age of puberty according to the shariah. Can you kindly explain to us how can the ruler make something that is legal, illegal?

And if we are following modern standards of children’s rights, does that mean also if there was an Islamic shariah state that the ruler can raise the age of Xad for children from puberty to 18, contrary to the shariah ruling?

Thanks!

 

[cunug3aad]

So a boy that is 12, but has reached puberty I.e able to have wet dreams then the Xad is applied to him? And so likewise if a girl reaches the age of menustration then the Xad is applicable to her as well.

@Supasta you said earlier in matters of usool of fiqh the ruler can restrict what is permissible? In this case, marriage which is Halal as long as a girl reaches the age of puberty according to the shariah. Can you kindly explain to us how can the ruler make something that is legal, illegal?

And if we are following modern standards of children’s rights, does that mean also if there was an Islamic shariah state that the ruler can raise the age of Xad for children from puberty to 18, contrary to the shariah ruling?

Thanks!

Yes as long as they are above 9 lunar years, maturity can occur between 9 and 15 years

 

[Barkhadle1520]

Sharia gives puberty as a minimum then it is the father’s discretion alongside a judge’s approval, nothing about arbitrary ages.

I dont see any father who would give his kid to another old man, its usually gaajo poor families who sell off their children and pass it off as marriage

 

[Noble]

There should rather be a law against Forces marriage.

 

[Mohamedamiin120]

We are having convos about "should women marry at 11?" whilst this is the stuff we were on back then..

'91 was a mistake!