Female Supporters of FGM March In Gambia! They Want It Legalized

[AdoonkaAlle]

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Meanwhile:

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Engaging in fatwa shopping, i can do that too.

Mind you the pic is from the same fatwa you posted a few days ago & guess what from the same website islamqa.org.

“Types of surgical forms ;(a) Circumcision or Sunna (“traditional”) circumcision: This involves the removal of the prepuce and the tip of the clitoris. This is the only operation which, medically, can be likened to male circumcision”[11]

What is the ruling of Shari’ah on female circumcision? - IslamQA

Question: What is the most preferred view on female circumcision? Did Prophet Muhammad ﷺ allow it for females and why? جزاك الله جيرا Answer: بسم الله الرحمن الرحيم Female Circumcision in Islam The

islamqa.org

 

[Angelina]

Engaging in fatwa shopping, i can do that too.



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Mind you the pic is from the same fatwa you posted a few days ago & guess what from the same website islamqa.org.

This isn’t Fatwa shopping at all.


This is about the fact that you attacked me for using the FGM word when actual scholars are using it to differentiate it from Sunnah versions. Are they ideologically compromised as well?

I can’t believe you tried to use a screenshot of something that has nothing to do with the topic. It’s mad!

 

[AdoonkaAlle]

Thanks again for the link, al Bahuti is revered authority in Islam.

Thank you. I think you owe Baroness @Angelina an apology.

On what grounds ? at least explain yourself sxb, moreover our discussion & disagreements had nothing to do with whether female circumcision is wajib, sunnah, noble etc. It revolved around the differential treatment between fgm & fgcs, ridicule & vilification of fellow muslim women etc.

 

[Angelina]

On what grounds ? at least explain yourself sxb, moreover our discussion & disagreements had nothing to do with whether female circumcision is wajib, sunnah, noble etc. It revolved around the differential treatment between fgm & fgcs, ridicule & vilification of fellow muslim women etc.

This topic was about Gambian women. I didn’t bring up gaal women and say it’s okay when they do such and such. You ran with that and attacked me even when I clarified that I don’t believe it’s okay for cadaans to do modifications that mutilate them as well. If the whole discussion was about Africa, why do I have to bring up cadaans straight away?

The whole premise of your argument was that FGM and using the word ‘mutilation’ isn’t a word Muslims would use, yet an actual Islamqa and Shafi for that matter is using it to differentiate between Islamic and non Islamic and I did the same thing but you attacked me. Are those writing the fatwa also bad since they too didn’t bring up white peoples and the West straight away? Do you not see how deeply flawed your attack on me is?

 

[Angelina]

@AdoonkaAlle

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@𐒋𐒖𐒆𐒔𐒖𐒕𐒈

He’ll never apologize. In fact he tried to accuse me of Fatwa shopping when the whole point had nothing to do with the actual fatwa but about the use of words ‘mutilation’ and ‘FGM’.

If actual scholars are allowed to use those terms to create a distinction, why is it haram or immoral for other Muslims? This isn’t me Fatwa shopping, we are having a discussion about the use of the word FGM amoungst Muslims. I was merely using this as an example to showcase that even learned and knowledgeable Muslims use the terms as well hence why am I being slandered?!

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[AdoonkaAlle]

@Angelina

There's no benefit in doodaan, so for both our sakes let's just stop here

 

[𐒋𐒖𐒆𐒔𐒖𐒕𐒈]

On what grounds ? at least explain yourself sxb, moreover our discussion & disagreements had nothing to do with whether female circumcision is wajib, sunnah, noble etc. It revolved around the differential treatment between fgm & fgcs, ridicule & vilification of fellow muslim women etc.

Walaal, if nothing else, speaking to a lady as if she does not know about female anatomy. Dare I say, it was as if you were doing a bit of a mansplaining. Gotta dash to iftar. Thank you for obliging.

 

[AdoonkaAlle]

Walaal, if nothing else, speaking to a lady as if she does not know about female anatomy. Dare I say, it was as if you were doing a bit of a mansplaining. Gotta dash to iftar. Thank you for obliging.

What was being claimed was factually incorrect & despite my attempts to clarify, it never ceased hence my insistence to read up on it. Now that argument & the one where similarity was drawn in removing part of the male genitalia are what i call "shock" arguments that are utilised to shut down any form of discussion regarding said issue. It's a response that all too familiar with when this topic is usually brought up.

If any attempt to correct misinformation, bias, etc by a man is defined as mansplaining doesn't this not lead to an outcome where we enable all manners of behaviour ?

Also i'm a bit surprised at to why you're pushing the onus on me to apologise given the nature of the discussion at hand. I mean before that discussion about female anatomy had even begun i was already accused of advocating for pagan body modifications simply because i urged people to refrain from insults and reflect on their actions.

 

[Angelina]

What was being claimed was factually incorrect & despite my attempts to clarify,

it never ceased hence my insistence to read up on it. Now that argument & the one where similarity was drawn in removing part of the male genitalia are what i call "shock" arguments that are utilised to shut down any form of discussion regarding said issue.

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It's a response that all too familiar with when this topic is usually brought up.

If any attempt to correct misinformation, bias, etc by a man is defined as mansplaining doesn't this not lead to an outcome where we enable all manners of behaviour ?

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Also i'm a bit surprised at to why you're pushing the onus on me to apologise given the nature of the discussion at hand. I mean before that discussion about female anatomy had even begun i was already accused of advocating for pagan body modifications simply because i urged people to refrain from insults and reflect on their actions.

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[Angelina]

@Angelina

There's no benefit in doodaan, so for both our sakes let's just stop here

You want me to stop and maybe that would be for the best. But honesty is key here and if you’re honest and fear Allah, how can you not admit that the reason why our whole argument started was because you called me ideologically compromised for using the word ‘FGM’ and ‘Mutilation’ and because I compared FGM to cutting off the head of the male organ. Another main reason was because you accused me of giving cadaans a pass and that my smoke was only towards Africans. That was the real basis of our argument. Oh and you had issues of me calling these women ‘pick me’ and for that I’d say it’s a fair concern.


Was that not why we had a whole back and forth? How could one even have integrity if they’ll side step the very whole reason for a debate? We can’t have fruitful discussions if we’re not going to admit why we’re debating.


I know my flaws, I might be argumentative and aggressive and for that I do actually apologize, but I try to be genuine in my debates.

This is my last official reply. I wish you the best as a Muslim brother in Islam and hope that Allah accepts your Ibaada in this holy month. I also, whilst I believe I’ve been wholly misinterpreted by you on purpose and felt anger I still want to officially apologize for my aggressive behavior and that’s not okay. I know it’s something I need to work on.

 

[AdoonkaAlle]

You want me to stop and maybe that would be for the best. But honesty is key here and if you’re honest and fear Allah, how can you not admit that the reason why our whole argument started was because you called me ideologically compromised for using the word ‘FGM’ and ‘Mutilation’ and because I compared FGM to cutting off the head of the male organ. Another main reason was because you accused me of giving cadaans a pass and that my smoke was only towards Africans. That was the real basis of our argument. Oh and you had issues of me calling these women ‘pick me’ and for that I’d say it’s a fair concern.


Was that not why we had a whole back and forth? How could one even have integrity if they’ll side step the very whole reason for a debate? We can’t have fruitful discussions if we’re not going to admit why we’re debating.


I know my flaws, I might be argumentative and aggressive and for that I do actually apologize, but I try to be genuine in my debates.

This is my last official reply. I wish you the best as a Muslim brother in Islam and hope that Allah accepts your Ibaada in this holy month. I also, whilst I believe I’ve been wholly misinterpreted by you on purpose and felt anger I still want to officially apologize for my aggressive behavior and that’s not okay. I know it’s something I need to work on.

Our arguments most certainly didn’t start when I hinted at ideology issues, it started way before that. You had already made up your mind about me being guilty, this is why you accused me of defending pagan circumcision in your response to mohmed at # 16 even though I never made such claims. It was this projection of bias towards me that lead to escalation between us.

What i found most disturbing was your actions towards your fellow muslim women. It was unethical and lacked any compassion. These are a group of women who not only have to deal with gaalo who view the Islamic circumcision as barbaric but also fellow muslim women who dehumanise them in the same manner as these gaalo.

I get that this topic is a very sensitive subject for dumarka laakin have you ever stopped once to think about how it must feel for those women who’ve gone through traumatic experiences to come across your use of language/ description etc ? Or your generalisations for those who’ve had only positive experiences

When you make mistakes in the deen how would you liked to be corrected? Majority of the women who’ve undergone different forms of genital cutting don’t relate to the fgm narrative nor reduce their identity to just victims of muitilation. This is how others have depicted them & not how they see themselves.

Instead of having the proper etiquette to correct malpractices there’s ridicule & vilification how does this help in anyway? Imagine if people depicted you nothing more than just an oppressed woman & interacted with you on this basis alone simply because you identify as a muslim woman

These gaalo who condemn female circumcision don’t make distinctions between halal or haram all forms of it be it Islamic, performed in a medical setting, is less/more invasive etc All of them are muitilations to them. it makes no sense to talk about fgm halal or haram types. That’s why using such a label to define transgressions against female circumcision in Islam i very problematic

As muslims we take Islam as our reference point and ideology that we subscribe to & gaalada will most certainly not share this view with us. This completely changes everything that comes after, making it very difficult since us & gaalo aren’t going to be aligned. Hence the need to tackle any transgressions within the cultural framework of islam & not that of gaalo.

When I critique the fgm label I’m not denying the injustice that women suffer but I’m rejecting the cultural framework & ideology that underpins fgm doctrine which are offered as solutions & alternatives to the injustice we know exists.

Fgm label, campaign, activism etc can never be detached from the ideological doctrines that it’s based on that’s why interjecting it into muslim issues only creates more problems. This is what I was referring to when I talked about ideology issues being at the heart of most who disagree with circumcision.

You will always be forced to argue from the framework of others the moment you use this label since there’s no questioning of its assumptions other than reinforcing its “truths”. This makes it hard for one to notice the double standards & racism that’s inherent in fgm discourse.


These gaalo will rather let non- white women suffer than help them medicalise circumcision procedures as it a clash of interests. Their ideology is more important to them than the lives of non-white women. I know that haram circumcisions exist but given the option to choose the lesser evil isn’t better to opt for one that causes least suffering?

Hope the above was sufficient enough to explain why I disagreed with you.

Having said that I do acknowledge that I’m not above reproach and as such apologise for any inconvenience caused.

May Allah forgive us for all our shortcomings, increase us in goodness and accept all of our good deeds in this blessed month

Ameen thumma Ameen

 

[Zob]

There has been a blanket ban on all female circumcision in Gambia since 2015 and here a group of mostly females protesting to show support for upcoming bill to be put in motion in the parliament going about to repeal the ban.

The ban includes Islamic sunnah female circumcision yet @Angelina you viciously go insult these muslim ladies call them derogative terms like "pick me's", I think you owe them a apology.

 

[𐒋𐒖𐒆𐒔𐒖𐒕𐒈]

What was being claimed was factually incorrect & despite my attempts to clarify, it never ceased hence my insistence to read up on it. Now that argument & the one where similarity was drawn in removing part of the male genitalia are what i call "shock" arguments that are utilised to shut down any form of discussion regarding said issue. It's a response that all too familiar with when this topic is usually brought up.

If any attempt to correct misinformation, bias, etc by a man is defined as mansplaining doesn't this not lead to an outcome where we enable all manners of behaviour ?

Also i'm a bit surprised at to why you're pushing the onus on me to apologise given the nature of the discussion at hand. I mean before that discussion about female anatomy had even begun i was already accused of advocating for pagan body modifications simply because i urged people to refrain from insults and reflect on their actions.

Walaal, it is the gentlemanly act, and to be fair Ms Angie has been consistent in her reasoning and train of thought on the issue, and in line with Islamic teachings, and more importantly she hardly questions Islamic tenets, and for that one must commend her. By the way, one does not apologise 'cos one 'knowingly' did something wrong.

 

[AdoonkaAlle]

There has been a blanket ban on all female circumcision in Gambia since 2015 and here a group of mostly females protesting to show support for upcoming bill to be put in motion in the parliament going about to repeal the ban.

The ban includes Islamic sunnah female circumcision yet @Angelina you viciously go insult these muslim ladies call them derogative terms like "pick me's", I think you owe them a apology.

It’s a good point to note as well, even if we assume that majority go beyond the limit why should those who adhere to what diinta says be barred from practicing it.

The sins of others shouldn’t have a bearing on what any individual is allowed to do islamically. Furthermore why negate the option of teaching & correcting people on how to carry it out the Islamic way ?

The ban is merely an appeasement to westerners, it wasn’t done in the interest of the women that it’s purported to serve. They weren’t consulted and the choice was made for them since they can’t be trusted to take care of their own bodies.

Walaal, it is the gentlemanly act, and to be fair Ms Angie has been consistent in her reasoning and train of thought on the issue, and in line with Islamic teachings, and more importantly she hardly questions Islamic tenets, and for that one must commend her. By the way, one does not apologise 'cos one 'knowingly' did something wrong.

If that’s so then a true gentleman wouldn’t overlook wrongdoing when it’s facing him directly would he ? waa maya sxb

Had there been the consistency you described above then there wouldn’t be any disagreements walaal. The core of the issue was the framework within which arguments were made.


Since an apology doesn’t require an acknowledgement of wrongdoing then can I ask why you only requested it from me ? I get that you’re trying to mediate between us laakin this demands that it’s done justly wouldn’t you agree?

 

[Zob]

It’s a good point to note as well, even if we assume that majority go beyond the limit why should those who adhere to what diinta says be barred from practicing it.

The sins of others shouldn’t have a bearing on what any individual is allowed to do islamically. Furthermore why negate the option of teaching & correcting people on how to carry it out the Islamic way ?

Yep, its a classic case of her throwing the baby out with the bath water.

Also this bill is being pushed to the parliamentary committee for further scrutiny before a third reading, a process that is expected to take three months and likely outcome of that could be for only a partial reverse on the ban so the Islamic sunnah female circumcision will be allowed again but non Islamic sunnah female circumcision could still stay banned if the review is going focus on the health side of things. So it was best for to have some iman and not to go viciously insult Muslim women demanding their Islamic rights aswell as Gambia Supreme Islamic Council and many other Islamic advocacy groups and large profile Muslim individual activists they are all calling for a partial lift of the ban not a full lift, @Angelina if you still not apologised then you are simply showing the characteristics of a khawarij which is they have harsh words for their fellow Muslim but are soft and tame towards kaafirs.

The ban is merely an appeasement to westerners, it wasn’t done in the interest of the women that it’s purported to serve. They weren’t consulted and the choice was made for them since they can’t be trusted to take care of their own bodies.

Yep it was done by the outgoing ex-president during his last year of power desperately trying to make concessions to The West in his attempt to hold on to power but failed ultimately.

If that’s so then a true gentleman wouldn’t overlook wrongdoing when it’s facing him directly would he ? waa maya sxb

Had there been the consistency you described above then there wouldn’t be any disagreements walaal. The core of the issue was the framework within which arguments were made.


Since an apology doesn’t require an acknowledgement of wrongdoing then can I ask why you only requested it from me ? I get that you’re trying to mediate between us laakin this demands that it’s done justly wouldn’t you agree?

He's acting like a neef and thinks he's all smart I wouldn't pay no mind to this theasarus abusing, chat gpt using fraudulent bot.

 

[AdoonkaAlle]

Yep, its a classic case of her throwing the baby out with the bath water.

Also this bill is being pushed to the parliamentary committee for further scrutiny before a third reading, a process that is expected to take three months and likely outcome of that could be for only a partial reverse on the ban so the Islamic sunnah female circumcision will be allowed again but non Islamic sunnah female circumcision could still stay banned if the review is going focus on the health side of things. So it was best for to have some iman and not to go viciously insult Muslim women demanding their Islamic rights aswell as Gambia Supreme Islamic Council and many other Islamic advocacy groups and large profile Muslim individual activists they are all calling for a partial lift of the ban not a full lift, @Angelina if you still not apologised then you are simply showing the characteristics of a khawarij which is they have harsh words for their fellow Muslim but are soft and tame towards kaafirs.


Yep it was done by the outgoing ex-president during his last year of power desperately trying to make concessions to The West in his attempt to hold on to power but failed ultimately.


He's acting like a neef and thinks he's all smart I wouldn't pay no mind to this theasarus abusing, chat gpt using fraudulent bot.

Sxb we both agree that it could’ve been handled differently & to be fair she did acknowledge the concern so let’s leave it at that.

Portraying her as having khawarij characteristics is a grievous accusation & I would recommend you don’t do that. I’ve had many discussions with her about a plethora of issues & not once has she ever espoused such beliefs. We need to be just even against those whom we disagree with.

As for walaalka i find the exchange quite pleasant, sidas darteed aflagaadada ka dhaaf.

 

[Zob]

Sxb we both agree that it could’ve been handled differently & to be fair she did acknowledge the concern so let’s leave it at that.

She is a deceiver and a lier she could have the distinction in the first post she made when comparing male and female cutting but she waited until you made virtue signalling post to lash out at you. She's very deceptive and I called her a compulsive lier in a thread last week and now she's been trying project you as a lier which is false she has been lying for years

Portraying her as having khawarij characteristics is a grievous accusation & I would recommend you don’t do that. I’ve had many discussions with her about a plethora of issues & not once has she ever espoused such beliefs. We need to be just even against those whom we disagree with.

She has been extreme in slandering you the whole 10 pages of the thread when you didn't deserve it as you never use that language yourself.

She lost the argument due to her own arrogance for refusing to apologise to the Muslim women demanding their Islamic rights but wangs to side with the gaals yet she calls herself a 'conservative Muslim lady on the deen'??

 

[AdoonkaAlle]

She is a deceiver and a lier she could have the distinction in the first post she made when comparing male and female cutting but she waited until you made virtue signalling post to lash out at you. She's very deceptive and I called her a compulsive lier in a thread last week and now she's been trying project you as a lier which is false she has been lying for years


She has been extreme in slandering you the whole 10 pages of the thread when you didn't deserve it as you never use that language yourself.

She lost the argument due to her own arrogance for refusing to apologise to the Muslim women demanding their Islamic rights but wangs to side with the gaals yet she calls herself a 'conservative Muslim lady on the deen'??

waa caadi sxb as I completely understand what you’re saying laakin we all have our shortcomings sometimes it takes time & effort to rectify them as such it’s better to be patient.

Discussion are meant to be just that, at the end of day we can’t force people to accept our views. It’s a learning experience for everyone involved so don’t let it bother you that much.

 

[Angelina]

Sxb we both agree that it could’ve been handled differently & to be fair she did acknowledge the concern so let’s leave it at that.

Portraying her as having khawarij characteristics is a grievous accusation & I would recommend you don’t do that. I’ve had many discussions with her about a plethora of issues & not once has she ever espoused such beliefs. We need to be just even against those whom we disagree with.

As for walaalka i find the exchange quite pleasant, sidas darteed aflagaadada ka dhaaf.

I’m not suprised I’m being portrayed this way by this poster and I want to thank you a lot for defending me.

A week ago I was being accused of normalizing Zina and he was insinuating I have dabbled in Zina in the past. Hence being called a Kharji is on par with his behavior. So this is of not surprise and all you have to do is look at past posts of his to see how he talks about women.

This attack against me is indeed a personal one and goes beyond my actual debate with you. I’ve had to at one point block him as well. This is a poster that has made outrageous and collective remarks about Somali women to such an extent it’s shocked me.

 

[𐒋𐒖𐒆𐒔𐒖𐒕𐒈]

Since an apology doesn’t require an acknowledgement of wrongdoing then can I ask why you only requested it from me ? I get that you’re trying to mediate between us laakin this demands that it’s done justly wouldn’t you agree?

You are a reasonable chap, and that is as good an apology as any from a nomad. Mind you, in the traditional nomadic culture, according to my late grandfather, one of the prerogatives of being a lady is they are exempted from the inconvenience of offering apologies.