Factions during 1991+, Who were they and what were their goals.

[Fisherman 75]

Yes, this is why I said that is was both Morgan AND Aidid who were responsible for triggering the famine. You will have some D&M who were victims of Morgan saying it was him who stole from them, and you will have reports of towns under Aidid's control experiencing hundreds of deaths daily because those are the victims of Aidid.

I was mainly pushing back against @JamalFarah's claim that one faction was mostly responsible, when it was multiple factions who caused this.

Both men did horrific acts. That can be agreed on.

 

[JamalFarah]

Yes, this is why I said that is was both Morgan AND Aidid who were responsible for triggering the famine. You will have some D&M who were victims of Morgan saying it was him who stole from them, and you will have reports of towns under Aidid's control experiencing hundreds of deaths daily because those are the victims of Aidid.

I was mainly pushing back against @JamalFarah's claim that one faction was mostly responsible, when it was multiple factions who caused this.

You don't come across as genuine when you like @Thegoodshepherd, who does what you just said, blaming it on one tribe. Let's be clear: when I blame Morgan, I blame him specifically and his soldiers. I never once used the term "Darood" to insinuate that one tribe should be held culpable. That is what people made of it.

It's interesting to see a bunch of people upvote the post regarding the atrocities committed by the SNM but downvote the moment Morgan or Barre are held responsible for any of their parts.

I very much consider Morgan to be the majority shareholder for the specific famine that killed over half a million people. Your sources don't discredit this. The early sources specifically mentioned that the starving went to Mogadishu and that the Raxanweyn allied themselves in response to Morgan's raiding in Bay and Bakool. These starving Raxanweyns, and not just Raxanweyns but Hawiyes and Daroods as well, being in his midst or anywhere in the south is only logical. Hell even video footage of they themself corrobarating this has been posted.

When it comes to the treatment of the Raxanweyn, Aideed himself was a devil only outdone by Morgan himself in this instance. I do not at all refute that Aideed had a negative effect in exacerbating the famine, but importantly, he was not the source of it to the same degree Morgan was.

I never made it about tribe; people have this tendency to support their mass-murdering kinsmen or resort to whataboutism. I'm not "blaming" any tribe, but people have become so caught up on clan that every single criticism of any of these men makes people justify the unjustifiable. I have always held the position that every single faction contributed to the modern shit show we find ourselves in, and their is enough blame to be shared.

 

[daljirkadahsoon]

You don't come across as genuine when you like @Thegoodshepherd, who does what you just said, blaming it on one tribe. Let's be clear: when I blame Morgan, I blame him specifically and his soldiers. I never once used the term "Darood" to insinuate that one tribe should be held culpable. That is what people made of it.

It's interesting to see a bunch of people upvote the post regarding the atrocities committed by the SNM but downvote the moment Morgan or Barre are held responsible for any of their parts.

I very much consider Morgan to be the majority shareholder for the specific famine that killed over half a million people. Your sources don't discredit this. The early sources specifically mentioned that the starving went to Mogadishu and that the Raxanweyn allied themselves in response to Morgan's raiding in Bay and Bakool. These starving Raxanweyns, and not just Raxanweyns but Hawiyes and Daroods as well, being in his midst or anywhere in the south is only logical. Hell even video footage of they themself corrobarating this has been posted.

When it comes to the treatment of the Raxanweyn, Aideed himself was a devil only outdone by Morgan himself in this instance. I do not at all refute that Aideed had a negative effect in exacerbating the famine, but importantly, he was not the source of it to the same degree Morgan was.

I never made it about tribe; people have this tendency to support their mass-murdering kinsmen or resort to whataboutism. I'm not "blaming" any tribe, but people have become so caught up on clan that every single criticism of any of these men makes people justify the unjustifiable. I have always held the position that every single faction contributed to the modern shit show we find ourselves in, and their is enough blame to be shared.

This is one of the main causes of the braindead discourse- the obsession to put in qabiil names and basically act like each qabiil is a unique Pokemon with its own personality .

No discussion of socio-economics, poltiical rivalries, historical context- i.e how the world actually works and how and why people do things just endless childish 'they are the bad guys', 'they did X'. There is rarely any acknowledgement of wrongdoing because loyalty to kin for most of them is higher than loyalty to the truth and to obeying Allah.

Surah An-Nisa - 135 - Quran.com

O believers! Stand firm for justice as witnesses for Allah even if it is against yourselves, your parents, or close relatives. Be they rich or poor, A...

quran.com

 

[Thegoodshepherd]

You don't come across as genuine when you like @Thegoodshepherd, who does what you just said, blaming it on one tribe. Let's be clear: when I blame Morgan, I blame him specifically and his soldiers. I never once used the term "Darood" to insinuate that one tribe should be held culpable. That is what people made of it.

It's interesting to see a bunch of people upvote the post regarding the atrocities committed by the SNM but downvote the moment Morgan or Barre are held responsible for any of their parts.

I very much consider Morgan to be the majority shareholder for the specific famine that killed over half a million people. Your sources don't discredit this. The early sources specifically mentioned that the starving went to Mogadishu and that the Raxanweyn allied themselves in response to Morgan's raiding in Bay and Bakool. These starving Raxanweyns, and not just Raxanweyns but Hawiyes and Daroods as well, being in his midst or anywhere in the south is only logical. Hell even video footage of they themself corrobarating this has been posted.

When it comes to the treatment of the Raxanweyn, Aideed himself was a devil only outdone by Morgan himself in this instance. I do not at all refute that Aideed had a negative effect in exacerbating the famine, but importantly, he was not the source of it to the same degree Morgan was.

I never made it about tribe; people have this tendency to support their mass-murdering kinsmen or resort to whataboutism. I'm not "blaming" any tribe, but people have become so caught up on clan that every single criticism of any of these men makes people justify the unjustifiable. I have always held the position that every single faction contributed to the modern shit show we find ourselves in, and their is enough blame to be shared.

Hawiye turned a war against a dictator into one of clan cleansing. No one forced the USC to pursue ethnic cleansing of the Darod in Banadir, Lower Shabelle and Jubaland. The D&M sided with the Hawiye in this goal and slaughtered Darod IDPs along the Mogadishu-Luuq and Mogadishu-Kismayo roads.

The D&M and Hawiye choose to play hardball with Darod, not the other way around. Funnily enough, many more Hawiye and D&M ended up dead between 1991 and 2001 than Darod.

 

[Magan Joseph]

Hawiye turned a war against a dictator into one of clan cleansing. No one forced the USC to pursue ethnic cleansing of the Darod in Banadir, Lower Shabelle and Jubaland. The D&M sided with the Hawiye in this goal and slaughtered Darod IDPs along the Mogadishu-Luuq and Mogadishu-Kismayo roads.

The D&M and Hawiye choose to play hardball with Darod, not the other way around. Funnily enough, many more Hawiye and D&M ended up dead between 1991 and 2001 than Darod.

Allah said it in the Quran that He does not like those who cause fasahaadand He is not with them

 

[Zak12]

While Aidid was indeed a terrible person, the UN/U.S aren't completely blameless when it came to 90s Somalia either. Bush had sent in 30,000 Marines and Airborne with a very restrictive mandate, to provide security for the food convoys and stay out of politics. Clinton proceeded to reduce it to 3,000 and tells them to go end the civil war. The head of the UN Boutros Ghali for whatever reason decided not to invite Aideed to the negotiations and peace talks despite him being the most powerful man in Somalia. While Aideed was indeed short tempered, he was still capable of working with foreign organizations and countries so being shunted off like that by that Egyptian pissed him off to no end and is what caused his attacks on the UN envoys. The UN retaliates by telling the US peacekeepers to attack a meeting with Aideed's lieutenants by blowing it up with Hellfires from Apaches. this meeting turned out to be the tribal elders debating whether to make peace with the UN, killing half of them infuriated everyone and so everything truly went to shit after that.

 

[Thegoodshepherd]

Allah said it in the Quran that He does not like those who cause fasahaadand He is not with them

Here is the ironic sequence of events:

1. Hawiye pursue ethnic cleansing against Darod
2. Somali state collapses as a result
3. Hawiye get into an Abgaal vs HG civil war using cold war weapons stockpile
4. Hawiye civil war has no ending because there is no Somali state to bring it to an end Hawiye civil war comes to an end when they run out of ammo and of buildings worthy of being targets

 

[Magan Joseph]

Here is the ironic sequence of events:

1. Hawiye pursue ethnic cleansing against Darod
2. Somali state collapses as a result
3. Hawiye get into an Abgaal vs HG civil war using cold war weapons stockpile
4. Hawiye civil war has no ending because there is no Somali state to bring it to an end Hawiye civil war comes to an end when they run out of ammo and of buildings worthy of being targets

They brought us big ceeb walahi I hope they learn about their mistakes

 

[CABDULWALI XASAN.]

Abgaal vs Habar Gidir I put my money on habar Gidir tbh Jus think about the Name Habar GIDIR

 

[CABDULWALI XASAN.]

You don't come across as genuine when you like @Thegoodshepherd, who does what you just said, blaming it on one tribe. Let's be clear: when I blame Morgan, I blame him specifically and his soldiers. I never once used the term "Darood" to insinuate that one tribe should be held culpable. That is what people made of it.

It's interesting to see a bunch of people upvote the post regarding the atrocities committed by the SNM but downvote the moment Morgan or Barre are held responsible for any of their parts.

I very much consider Morgan to be the majority shareholder for the specific famine that killed over half a million people. Your sources don't discredit this. The early sources specifically mentioned that the starving went to Mogadishu and that the Raxanweyn allied themselves in response to Morgan's raiding in Bay and Bakool. These starving Raxanweyns, and not just Raxanweyns but Hawiyes and Daroods as well, being in his midst or anywhere in the south is only logical. Hell even video footage of they themself corrobarating this has been posted.

When it comes to the treatment of the Raxanweyn, Aideed himself was a devil only outdone by Morgan himself in this instance. I do not at all refute that Aideed had a negative effect in exacerbating the famine, but importantly, he was not the source of it to the same degree Morgan was.

I never made it about tribe; people have this tendency to support their mass-murdering kinsmen or resort to whataboutism. I'm not "blaming" any tribe, but people have become so caught up on clan that every single criticism of any of these men makes people justify the unjustifiable. I have always held the position that every single faction contributed to the modern shit show we find ourselves in, and their is enough blame to be shared.

Whats your qabil

 

[tyrannicalmanager]

That's not true. After Ethiopia imprisoned AY majority of SSDF laid down their arms and become loyal Afweynists using a combination of coercion and intimidation to woe them in. Bosasso Port was his gift for Majerteen capitulation thought the port was half finished when his government fell in 1991.


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That's why I always laugh at the likes of @DR OSMAN reminiscing about his sell out family. Or the clueless Gen Z who spam Mogadishu downtown vintage photos in 1975 depiction of advanced Somalia. Osman's own inadeer the Gaal Ayan Xersi book "infidel" had many juicy scripts about her upbringing in Afweyne's Somalia and discrimination her people went through. Very bleak illustrations of the day to day life in Somalia's "Golden Age" Detoriating living standards, long lines for food rations, massive human right violations and open institutional form of qabyaalad in all sectors of the government. When it came for SSDF she retold their long struggle untill they eventually surrendered and joined Siad Barre campaign in Somaliland.

View attachment 328652

Long Bread lines are preferable to seafood contaminated by nuclear waste.

The greatest misleading narrative perpetuated by Darood diaspora, particularly loyal Afweynist the likes of Osman and Shepard is that Hawiye culture is pre disposed to Mooryanimo when it's the default Somali reaction to prosecution. Notice they always bring up 1991 and digging up telephone lines to depict Hawiye as savages but keep their mouth shut of the Darood-led Somali army mass massacres throughout Somalia.

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Mind you, the above is not the actions of a rag tag decentralized rebel group. This is Somali National Army, a centralized military force which is supposedly ran by a sovereign government that legally accountable by the public. They Did everything from burning civilian nomads to stealing door frames/windows/ rooftops to sell it back to it's original owners. This level of unadulterated Mooryanimo is rarely ever discussed or

This tyranny was better than competing warlords massacring and opressing rival/minority clans

aknowledged by Afweyne orphans but they are sure fixated on telephone lines USC stole in 91.

Were do you live?

 

[Itsnotthateasy]

Long Bread lines are preferable to seafood contaminated by nuclear waste.

This tyranny was better than competing warlords massacring and opressing rival/minority clans

Were do you live?

Quit covering for Siad Barre.
You really meant to say Tyranny (of my clan over yours) is better.

Yet you darood are crying everywhere people even try to include you in a democracy. The world biggest hypocrites.

Include you in a democratic state and you cry about being colonized. You only wish to rule others but you don't have the means. Without exploiting state power you are nothing.

 

[tyrannicalmanager]

Quit covering for Siad Barre.
You really meant to say Tyranny (of my clan over yours) is better.

It's not my problem the Rebels immediately began a campaign of clan cleansing a second after he was deposed.

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Your clan is still causing a ruckus by opposing Hawiye to form a state and Isaaq to form their state but you can never hold power again.

What state?

 

[Removed]

Run along.View attachment 328610View attachment 328611View attachment 328613

Both claims aren’t mutually exclusive. “Joint actions” does not claim the SPM werent in Xamar, the fact is we have primary evidence from the time that the SPM was stationed at Afgooye and invaded Xamar on Jan.23rd.

The evidence @Magan Joseph is showing is from Lidwien Kapteijns Clan Cleansing in Somalia where it further cites the primary evidence of British Media company Africa Confidential and goes even further in describing how they had collected that information. This is THE book on Somalias civil war

 

[CABDULWALI XASAN.]

Long Bread lines are preferable to seafood contaminated by nuclear waste.

This tyranny was better than competing warlords massacring and opressing rival/minority clans

Were do you live?

Precisely, I dont understand how anyone can support what happened in 1991 the only good thing that happened is somalis went all over the world now.

 

[Garaad Awal]

SNM performed mass killings in Awdal, like those in Dilla and Boroma.

"Within 12 hours, the SNM, a clannish rebel militia, fighting in theory against the central government, entered and mercilessly killed up to 1,000 civilians. "

"There was also absolutely no resistance or strategic need to shell a heavily populated . Earlier, those same men killed, raped, pillaged and burnt Dila, a small town not far from Borama.

"The city residents feared the SNM’s rapid advances. About 80,000 people fled Borama because of reports of indiscriminate shelling of towns by the SNM and summary executions of anyone suspected of working for the government or simply belonging to non-Isaaq clans."

"Borama’s population also increased when the Gadabursis were evicted from their homes in Hargeisa and Gabiley, as well as from their farms and grasslands. The demographic landscape of Awdal changed dramatically after the wave of terror."

"The SNM unleashed an unparalleled terror tantamount to ethnic cleansing. By that, I mean the systematic elimination of a clan from a region, as by forced emigration and killing."

Bunch of lies peddled by Samarone and Jabarti with cuqdad against Isaaqs

 

[daljirkadahsoon]

Bunch of lies peddled by Samarone and Jabarti with cuqdad against Isaaqs

What do you get from belittling families who had relatives killed for no reason? You're not stupid and you are able to read stuff so is it just kibr? You'd cry if people said the pogroms of Isaaq didn't happen

Or is a pride thing- 'my people are too good' to do something like that?

 

[Itsnotthateasy]

What do you get from belittling families who had relatives killed for no reason? You're not stupid and you are able to read stuff so is it just kibr? You'd cry if people said the pogroms of Isaaq didn't happen

Or is a pride thing- 'my people are too good' to do something like that?

People deny it all the time on this forum, no one really challenges them.

Genocide denial is the foundational argument against Somaliland independence.

 

[daljirkadahsoon]

People deny it all the time on this forum, no one really challenges them.

Genocide denial is the foundational argument against Somaliland independence.

Come on now it's not remotely the main argument. It's not even an argument.

Actual arguments include the following: The Somali Republic shouldn't be broken up, the Somalis are better together than apart, Qabiil Qaran ma noqdo and there has to be inclusion of non Isaaq, etc.

The problem you have and have had since inception is that it is effectively a qabiil state and this is a massive downgrade from a Somali nation-state.

A government carrying the flag of Somalinimo that represents all ethnic Somalis is simply more appealing and this is why Somaliland has never had the full or genuine support of Awdal and SSC.

The whole Southern attitude to you for years was based on 'war Siad sii xun ayuu uu galay ee soo dhawaaya'!

Even if some people deny it, this is not relevant to what I was saying.

 

[Itsnotthateasy]

Come on now it's not remotely the main argument. It's not even a main argument.

The whole Southern attitude to you for years was based on 'war Siad sii xun ayuu uu galay ee soo dhawaaya'!

Even if some people deny it, this is not relevant to what I was saying.

There are more layers to it.
Blame shifting (it's just Siad Barre- like your comment now) , whataboutism (particularly exaggerated claims about the SNM) but those are more subtle forms for students of deception.