Factions during 1991+, Who were they and what were their goals.

[Yazi]

I'm not going to arguing the blood of Isaaq is halal or that you must love the tyranny of Siad Barre or Darood.

Because you have no argument. There is no reason why should an Isaaq or any clan for that matter continue to demean themselves or sacrifice their own for the best interest of "Greater Somalia" a disgraced project hijacked by 3 sub clans.

I wouldn't dare to compare Isaaq to a filthy Yahuud.

Nice deflection here.

it was an open season for the D&M community in the first 5 years of the civil war. South Central Somalia is a great example of why the rebels were worse than the Barre's regime.

How's that true when Afweyne and his SNF the remnants of the "Somali National Army" wan an active participant in the famine of Bay & Bakool. Infact there was a systematic campaign of uprooting Raxanweyne from Gedo well before the collapse of the central government. Their lands and farms were routinely confiscated by the government and they had less representation in the government than even Isaaq. The fact MOD government of Afweyne was abusing D&M before and after it's collapse should tell you it's no different than USC or any rebel group. Am I supposed to change the standards before and after Afweyne was overthrown? They're the same before it they were wearing standard military uniform and after it they wore Macawiis lol ... How about you hold the same standards for Afweyne and his militia the same way you do for USC. Remember at one point SNF & SPM were all part of the Somali National Army.

The tyranny back then was monopolised by a central power in Somalia compared to every faction in civil war committed atrocities on the same level or even exceeding that of the previous regime

You practically ended your own argument here. Monopoly over violence means you have no power vacuum like in Ethiopia. You reign supreme over the state which was the case from 1969 - 1977. The monopoly over violence by the Somali Central Government overseen by Afweyne and his commie committee ended with the Ogaden war. The Big Lipped Beats ((Afweyne)) lost legitimacy and popular support after losing the war. Instead of stepping down or allowing free elections he doubled down with his MOD government and started clan wars to remain in power. Cracking down on dissentients and using scorched earth polices is what led to the proliferation of rebel groups which brought down the government. It was Afweyne's fault that political opposition to his rule found no other channels to express their political views in the the discourse without resorting to violence. He came to power without spilling a single drop of blood. State institutions, National Army, civil liberties and elections were all there before him. He didn't create anything from scratch, it was all there since independence in 1960. Your blame of rebel groups for failing to establish a new transitional government falls on deaf ears when you exonerates MOD government of any wrongdoings. There is a cause and effect here but for some reason you guys are fixated on the effect (rebel groups) and not the cause (Afweyne) The Kacaan Cult did NOT create Somalia, they hijacked it and burned it to the ground.

 

[daljirkadahsoon]

@Yazi Some people are very attached to that regime and won't acknowledge it was a flop.

All of this has me wondering what would have happened if Siad never came to power to begin with or if it was Salaad Gabayre instead

 

[Yazi]

Rest in piss you big lipped bastard.

 

[tyrannicalmanager]

Because you have no argument. There is no reason why should an Isaaq or any clan for that matter continue to demean themselves or sacrifice their own for the best interest of "Greater Somalia" a disgraced project hijacked by 3 sub clans.

Nice deflection here.

How's that true when Afweyne and his SNF the remnants of the "Somali National Army" wan an active participant in the famine of Bay & Bakool. Infact there was a systematic campaign of uprooting Raxanweyne from Gedo well before the collapse of the central government. Their lands and farms were routinely confiscated by the government and they had less representation in the government than even Isaaq. The fact MOD government of Afweyne was abusing D&M before and after it's collapse should tell you it's no different than USC or any rebel group. Am I supposed to change the standards before and after Afweyne was overthrown? They're the same before it they were wearing standard military uniform and after it they wore Macawiis lol ... How about you hold the same standards for Afweyne and his militia the same way you do for USC. Remember at one point SNF & SPM were all part of the Somali National Army.


You practically ended your own argument here. Monopoly over violence means you have no power vacuum like in Ethiopia. You reign supreme over the state which was the case from 1969 - 1977. The monopoly over violence by the Somali Central Government overseen by Afweyne and his commie committee ended with the Ogaden war. The Big Lipped Beats ((Afweyne)) lost legitimacy and popular support after losing the war. Instead of stepping down or allowing free elections he doubled down with his MOD government and started clan wars to remain in power. Cracking down on dissentients and using scorched earth polices is what led to the proliferation of rebel groups which brought down the government. It was Afweyne's fault that political opposition to his rule found no other channels to express their political views in the the discourse without resorting to violence. He came to power without spilling a single drop of blood. State institutions, National Army, civil liberties and elections were all there before him. He didn't create anything from scratch, it was all there since independence in 1960. Your blame of rebel groups for failing to establish a new transitional government falls on deaf ears when you exonerates MOD government of any wrongdoings. There is a cause and effect here but for some reason you guys are fixated on the effect (rebel groups) and not the cause (Afweyne) The Kacaan Cult did NOT create Somalia, they hijacked it and burned it to the ground.

after MSB was deposed he became 1 of many tyrannical warlords. The reason why i "absolved" The Kacaanka is because the rebels destroyed the basic building blocks of governance and left it defenseless against Ethiopian aggression.

The oppression of the Kacaanka isn´t an excuse for entire movements to be based on tribalism.
even before the fall of the Kacaanka regime, at least one rebel group cleansed ideological opposition against MSB within their group.

Our generation would've forgotten MSB if the rebels did the bare minimum and built a government, not a good government, not a functional government, A Government.

 

[daljirkadahsoon]

after MSB was deposed he became 1 of many tyrannical warlords. The reason why i "absolved" The Kacaanka is because the rebels destroyed the basic building blocks of governance and left it defenseless against Ethiopian aggression.

The oppression of the Kacaanka isn´t an excuse for entire movements to be based on tribalism.
even before the fall of the Kacaanka regime, at least one rebel group cleansed ideological opposition against MSB within their group.

Our generation would've forgotten MSB if the rebels did the bare minimum and built a government, not a good government, not a functional government, A Government.

They were by and large incompetent mooryaans who were happy to fight until Yawmul Qiyamah- no vision or basic human decency.

 

[Yazi]

after MSB was deposed he became 1 of many tyrannical warlords. The reason why i "absolved" The Kacaanka is because the rebels destroyed the basic building blocks of governance and left it defenseless against Ethiopian aggression.

And before that what was he doing for 20 years? Yes, he was the main and only warlord. There was no "Basic blocks of governance" which shows your ignorance. The Kacaan was a committee of dozens of people loyal to Afweyne. However all important decisions had to be made by him. Somalia was a one man state, for you to claim there was any meaningful institutions left is laughable. By the end of 1990 the government controlled 15% of the territory of Somalia, mainly the large cities and towns on the coast. You're arguing why Rebels didn't make a government, cart before the horse ... I'm arguing why the government fell in the first place.

The oppression of the Kacaanka isn´t an excuse for entire movements to be based on tribalism.
even before the fall of the Kacaanka regime, at least one rebel group cleansed ideological opposition against MSB within their group.

So basically you're saying Afweyne had every right to relay on his tribalistic MOD allies, shower them with preferential treatment, arm them to the teeth and abuse other clan at will in the name of government .... Your redline is opposition rallying around the same Tribalistic principles and raising arms in response to your transgressions. Great logic there.

Our generation would've forgotten MSB if the rebels did the bare minimum and built a government, not a good government, not a functional government, A Government.

The "Bare minimum" is keeping what you already got not building an entire political system from thin air. Let me remind you Afweyne came to power without opposition and all government institutions intact with the country in pretty good shape, he didn't create it. His only twist is going from republican vote to one party state. How do you go from that to losing 85% of the country to half a dozen rebel groups based on sub clans is the epitome of incompetence and foolishness.


If you don't have the ability to improve something, or ran it properly at the very least return it as you found it. You don't go from the first democracy in Africa to state collapse in 1991 unless you failed to implement the very "bare minimum" you're parroting here.

 

[tyrannicalmanager]

And before that what was he doing for 20 years? Yes, he was the main and only warlord. There was no "Basic blocks of governance" which shows your ignorance. The Kacaan was a committee of dozens of people loyal to Afweyne. However all important decisions had to be made by him. Somalia was a one man state, for you to claim there was any meaningful institutions left is laughable. By the end of 1990 the government controlled 15% of the territory of Somalia, mainly the large cities and towns on the coast. You're arguing why Rebels didn't make a government, cart before the horse ... I'm arguing why the government fell in the first place.

MSB could be making executive decisions while siting under a tree and it would be better form governance than what came after excluding the ICU.

So basically you're saying Afweyne had every right to relay on his tribalistic MOD allies, shower them with preferential treatment, arm them to the teeth and abuse other clan at will in the name of government .... Your redline is opposition rallying around the same Tribalistic principles and raising arms in response to your transgressions. Great logic there.

none of these groups were able to fight against MSB without heavy Ethiopian support. If the rebels were sincere they would fight under the banner of Islam.

The "Bare minimum" is keeping what you already got not building an entire political system from thin air. Let me remind you Afweyne came to power without opposition and all government institutions intact with the country in pretty good shape, he didn't create it. His only twist is going from republican vote to one party state. How do you go from that to losing 85% of the country to half a dozen rebel groups based on sub clans is the epitome of incompetence and foolishness.

The SYL period was marred with corruption and a dozen clan parties.

If you don't have the ability to improve something, or ran it properly at the very least return it as you found it. You don't go from the first democracy in Africa to state collapse in 1991 unless you failed to implement the very "bare minimum" you're parroting here.

let's say i "concede" that MSB was Solely responsible for the collapse of the government leading up to 1991. what prevented people from establishing a government nearly 2 decades after he left Somalia?

 

[daljirkadahsoon]

Without seeking to support what happened later, it is true that Siad was an improvement on the democratic gov he removed in 1969 initially. The last gov had become too corrupt and their overthrow was welcomed by the population

 

[Yazi]

MSB could be making executive decisions while siting under a tree and it would be better form governance than what came after excluding the ICU

He had a whole government and blow it. Instead of holding his ground under a tree, he chose to flee and bakhti in the infamous Nigerian toilet. The man you worshipping literally ran away from a war he started with his own hands and died in a toilet while you're talking bout some stupid tree like he was the pinnacle of wisdom. Your monkey mythology is off.

none of these groups were able to fight against MSB without heavy Ethiopian support. If the rebels were sincere they would fight under the banner of Islam.

How old are you? Do you realize Afweyne was begging (yes begging) for weapons from Soviets and Americans to kill his own people? How is that any different from asking Ethiopia for weapons. Or the infamous agreement Afweyne had that led to 1988 and the defection of SPM. Another stupid red line of yours. Like if he was sincere from the beginning he wouldn't prosecute his own people and cause rebel groups to pop out in every corner.

let's say i "concede" that MSB was Solely responsible for the collapse of the government leading up to 1991. what prevented people from establishing a government nearly 2 decades after he left Somalia?

Clan distrust, tribal grievances, competition over power, foreign interference and the availability of arms. There is a lot of reasons why rebel groups failed to form a new government including Afweyne's own militia who butchered each other in Kismayo. It is common knowledge that establishing a new state is always more difficult than preserving an existing one.


Literally all your circular arguments are debunked and your double standard are easily applied to Afweyne. Not the sharpest tool in the box.

 

[reer]

MSB could be making executive decisions while siting under a tree and it would be better form governance than what came after excluding the ICU.

none of these groups were able to fight against MSB without heavy Ethiopian support. If the rebels were sincere they would fight under the banner of Islam.

The SYL period was marred with corruption and a dozen clan parties.

let's say i "concede" that MSB was Solely responsible for the collapse of the government leading up to 1991. what prevented people from establishing a government nearly 2 decades after he left Somalia?

i hope the dude is happy with british government housing watching somalis and madows have knife fights from the window while ethiopia and kenya are trying to annex somalia.

 

[Magan Joseph]

Does this remind you of 1991?

 

[Itsnotthateasy]

after MSB was deposed he became 1 of many tyrannical warlords. The reason why i "absolved" The Kacaanka is because the rebels destroyed the basic building blocks of governance and left it defenseless against Ethiopian aggression.

The oppression of the Kacaanka isn´t an excuse for entire movements to be based on tribalism.
even before the fall of the Kacaanka regime, at least one rebel group cleansed ideological opposition against MSB within their group.

Our generation would've forgotten MSB if the rebels did the bare minimum and built a government, not a good government, not a functional government, A Government.

There's no point relitigating the civil war over and over. MSB and his cohorts destroyed state viability by using divide and rule tactics and collective punishments (up to genocide). The rebel groups stopped fighting a while ago. Why can't the state be revived? Because everyone is scared of it now they know what it's capable of. FMS are scared of handing over control to FGS. That's why MSB was the worst thing to happen to the Somali state at the worst possible time. Maybe if the Somali state had been established for some time and his actions could be seen as an outlier but right now his actions are definitive and people prefer statelessness.

 

[tyrannicalmanager]

i hope the dude is happy with british government housing watching somalis and madows have knife fights from the window while ethiopia and kenya are trying to annex somalia.

I think i'm pretty reasonable to say the Rebellion based is the definition of jahiliyyah.

ilterally all your circular arguments are debunked and your double standard are easily applied to Afweyne. Not the sharpest tool in the box.

How is it circular logic?

There's no point relitigating the civil war over and over. MSB and his cohorts destroyed state viability by using divide and rule tactics and collective punishments (up to genocide). The rebel groups stopped fighting a while ago. Why can't the state be revived? Because everyone is scared of it now they know what it's capable of. FMS are scared of handing over control to FGS.

The civil war isn't over it's in a stalemate ok

That's why MSB was the worst thing to happen to the Somali state at the worst possible time. Maybe if the Somali state had been established for some time and his actions could be seen as an outlier but right now his actions are definitive and people prefer statelessness.

He's been deposed for 30+ years had some point you have to blame someone else.

 

[Itsnotthateasy]

I think i'm pretty reasonable to say the Rebellion based is the definition of jahiliyyah.

How is it circular logic?

The civil war isn't over it's in a stalemate ok

He's been deposed for 30+ years had some point you have to blame someone else.

Just because he's gone doesn't mean people forgot what he did. He said, when he left Somalia will never be governable again. I don't know if that's a real quote but he knows his actions destroyed all possibility for at least a few generations.

The civil war between secular groups is over but they will not revive the state together because the example has been set.

 

[Yazi]

i hope the dude is happy with british government housing watching somalis and madows have knife fights from the window while ethiopia and kenya are trying to annex somalia.

We're Somaliland, not Somalia. And we're 100% behind the MoU regarding Berbera corridor and the naval base.

I'm happy with the American Government gunning down Somali thugs in Ohio. May Minnesota follow in their footsteps and promptly remove Fentanyl-Afweyn addicts from their streets.

 

[Magan Joseph]

A Italian dummy turned Hawiye against each other

 

[CABDULWALI XASAN.]

Rest in piss you big lipped bastard.

View attachment 328940

Who hurt you

 

[Silverfang]

We're Somaliland, not Somalia. And we're 100% behind the MoU regarding Berbera corridor and the naval base.

I'm happy with the American Government gunning down Somali thugs in Ohio. May Minnesota follow in their footsteps and promptly remove Fentanyl-Afweyn addicts from their streets.

You`re very emotional

 

[Magan Joseph]

You`re very emotional

He must be young like 18 19 or 20

 

[Awdalite]

The making of a failed state.