You don't seem to understand my point here, do you?
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- Thread starter Shadow-san
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I've never nitpicked a fatwa. Nearly all the madhabs believe a woman doesn't have to cook and clean, and Somalis are mostly Shafi. So how is that nitpicking?
You said cooking and cleaning is a religious obligation, therefore he doesn’t need to help. Clearly according to the majority it isn't. I can easily argue you're nitpicking. You used Hanafi and you know all do not agree, hence who is nitpicking you or me?
I have no issues with women doing most of the cooking and cleaning if she is a stay at home mum. Societies will not function if women didn't cook and clean, but as a man you should help and see what she does with appreciation.
Also, on a serious note are you going to accuse me of nitpicking just because you don't agree with a stance?
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Bruh
I'm not talking about what the majority of the madhabs say on the matter.
I was just showing how the article you linked under your post said otherwise. You said that it is not an obligation for a woman to do house chores and can't be forced to do it, and then used that article to defend your statement. Although the article itself did say that the Qadi can't force a woman to do house chores, she is still obligated to do it.
Read your stuff before posting it. I was only correcting you, not making a statement on whether it is wajib or not.
No, I basically showed you that first Hanafi article to show that even within the Hanafi madhab there are differences of opinions. I KNOW that the Hanafi madhab think a woman cooking and cleaning is wajib.Bruh
I'm not talking about what the majority of the madhabs say on the matter.
I was just showing how the article you linked under your post said otherwise. You said that it is not an obligation for a woman to do house chores and can't be forced to do it, and then used that article to defend your statement. Although the article itself did say that the Qadi can't force a woman to do house chores, she is still obligated to do it.
Read your stuff before posting it. I was only correcting you, not making a statement on whether it is wajib or not.
If you're talking about the Islamqa article. It clearly says the husband should see it as his wife doing it voluntarily, due to the fact that the majority of madhabs and scholars believe it is not a religious requirement.
AdoonkaAlle
Ragna qowl baa xira, dumarna meher baa xira.
1. The need to save her from her "dysfunctional" family, trauma etc is a constant theme from start to finish one can hardly ignore it. This is what he says in the first paragraph " I mistakenly believed that I was marring a sweet, a bit helpless girl that needed to get out from her difficult situation/home. It was a match suggested by a friend who knew one of her brothers and explained that if I was looking to marry a woman who needed support and was great wife/mother, she was the answer to my prayers. " Clearly indicating that this is the driving force behind his intention to marry her, her being practising is only a positive secondary reason.
2. In and out of prison ? why are you lying ? The guy clearly states that he's been ONLY to prison once and ONLY for a few months
To make matters worse the father went to jail when she was 16, she's 33 now but he felt the need to share a crime that the father committed 17 yrs ago ? What relevance does this have ? Any unbiased person would know that the only reason he shared this was to paint the father in a negative light. It's also not a coincidence that it's only the UNCLE who is portrayed positively as being practising and having a good reputation while the father is damned as a criminal even after 17yrs.
I didn't twist anything merely noticed the guy wasn't honest and since the father was against him marrying his daughter, he need a reason to justify his actions and circumvent the guardianship of the father.
3. The girl came to the country when she was 16 so she couldn't have been the one providing for the family etc. It's evident the family had the means to support themselves prior and most probably after her coming to the country. He calls her mother selfish for expecting her daughter to contribute to their lives ? what is this ? what kind of child doesn't pay the bills or support their family when they come of age ? What about the sacrifices her mother made to raise her ?
If she had be to the mother and father for the family why would she risk it knowing fully well that by marrying him she wouldn't be able to support her family like she used ? If the family is entirely dependent on her why would she choose a man over them and especially in that manner ? It doesn't make sense at all, the guy is clearly exaggerating because if what he said was true to the letter she would never pick a random stranger over her family
4. Both families were equally displeased with their marriage this is what he had to say
5. The guy clearly without a doubt has more respect towards his family as he didn't disclose their own dysfunctionality & even when he did say something about them he was very selective in his choice of words and only gave out minor details. We don't know the inner details of his family but we do of his wife precisely because it fits the narrative that he wants us to believe. His mother just like her's come from cultures that have the same expectation from daughters where they're expected to cook, clean for the family etc but it's ONLY the wife's mother that's selfish. Look at what he says here
Why does he share private matters that have no relevance to the situation at hand ? He could've omitted those facts just like he does with his own family but chose not to , so that he could gain legitimacy for his actions and validate his reasoning to marry her. Ask yourself why did mention a crime that was committed 17 yrs ago ? was this not an attempt to malign the father and justify his need to save her ?
I'm not over analysing anything just pointing out obvious exaggerations, red flags and problems with this entire story. If anyone is guilty of anything it's your tendency to project your bias.
The girl clearly has sacrificed more than him as she bypassed her father & mother to be with this guy. She also has created issues between her father & uncle, her parents & her etc. She has to deal now with a mother in law who despises her not only for taking her son away from her but also for belonging to a different ethnicity altogether. Anyone can see that this isn’t going to end well at all for her and she is the one who’s sacrificed the most & continues to do so.
The guy is not only oblivious to the above but disparages & disrespectful towards her parents. Laakin she doesn’t display the same disdain towards his parents why is this ?
I’m amazed how you were able to read the story and claim that her family weren’t not opposed to it and also how you managed to deduce that the uncle was the only one practising when the guy didn’t even mention if the parents were practicing or not.
1. The 1st part, I actually agree with you. I can't argue with that, once I read it it's clear he wanted a helpless woman. That is the only analysis in which I would you're bang on the money.
2. The father not only went to prison, but scammed people and he is supposedly lazy, which is what at 33 she is still the one that helps everyone. You're right, he didn't go in and out of prison. I misread it and I have no intentions of lying which is why i'm saying I was wrong.
Read this part carefully, is this family dynamic normal? She is practically the mother and father of her family:
This isn't normal for anyone, Somalis or Asians. We all help our parents, but not the extent that we are the near enough the parents. It seems she pays all the bills. Where is her father?!
So for you to suggest that he is displaying double standards is ridiculous. Walal, do you really think most Asian and Somali mum's expect this from their daughters?!
3. Look how her uncle is described:
Her uncle clearly doesn't have a criminal background actually works and is known in the Muslim community. Can you say the same about the abo? Why is his daughter single handedly providing for the family?
Also I may have missed it, where does it say that there is problems with the Uncle and father? How do we even know the dad is in the picture?
I'm only asking as the father doesn't seem to do anything for the family, according to him. He could be lying but we have no idea.
4. You keep on saying he has omitted facts about his own family. How do you know he isn't from a regular normal family? That point doesn't make sense in the slightest. Her family are clearly very dysfunctional. Why are you behaving as though going to prison (once) scamming, fake passports, not working, is normal? The mother is healthy enough to go weddings and SING at weddings but not care about her own children's education?!
5. You argued, if the family are dependent on her, why would she choose a man? You're behaving as though her family have cut ties with her or that they have disowned her. Where does it say that? In fact even AFTER marrying, whe was still there for them:
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@AdoonkaAlle
To continue, even after marriage she still helps them. So how has she risked anything when she's still doing everything for them and she still has a relationship with them?!
It's insane that you've accused me of bias when a lot of your points are based on over analysing and straight up twisting. I'm not going to accuse you lying. I'm going to assume you didn't read that part.
6. Also, the point that I found very sad is that you expected her to continue sacrificing for her lazy and dysfunctional family, despite the fact that she now has two successful brothers. She even paid for their education!
She is 33 saxib 33. When is she going to have children if she continues being at their beck and call? Where is your empathy?
Why?
7. I need to come back to this which a huge indicator of your bias and the fact that you're cherry picking and not looking at the whole issue:
This is what YOU wrote. But OP made ir it clear several times that she doesn't JUST cook and clean. She pays all the bills, takes the kids to parents evening, paid for their tuition ect. She practically does what a father and mother does. But you've just reduced it to cooking and cleaning to simply point score and that walaal is very dishonest.
This isn't part of Pakistani culture and no Pakistani mother expects her eldest daughters to pay all the bills, ,along with paying kids tuition, along with raising them, taking them to all the parents evenings. Even the MOTHERS don't do that unless they're single mothers with no husband to finance them. It isn't even really part of the dhaqaan of good stable Somali families either.
To continue, even after marriage she still helps them. So how has she risked anything when she's still doing everything for them and she still has a relationship with them?!
It's insane that you've accused me of bias when a lot of your points are based on over analysing and straight up twisting. I'm not going to accuse you lying. I'm going to assume you didn't read that part.
6. Also, the point that I found very sad is that you expected her to continue sacrificing for her lazy and dysfunctional family, despite the fact that she now has two successful brothers. She even paid for their education!
She is 33 saxib 33. When is she going to have children if she continues being at their beck and call? Where is your empathy?
Why?
7. I need to come back to this which a huge indicator of your bias and the fact that you're cherry picking and not looking at the whole issue:
This is what YOU wrote. But OP made ir it clear several times that she doesn't JUST cook and clean. She pays all the bills, takes the kids to parents evening, paid for their tuition ect. She practically does what a father and mother does. But you've just reduced it to cooking and cleaning to simply point score and that walaal is very dishonest.
This isn't part of Pakistani culture and no Pakistani mother expects her eldest daughters to pay all the bills, ,along with paying kids tuition, along with raising them, taking them to all the parents evenings. Even the MOTHERS don't do that unless they're single mothers with no husband to finance them. It isn't even really part of the dhaqaan of good stable Somali families either.
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Maan
What do you bring to the table?
Not gonna read all that too but I read the first few lines
he married the girl to "save her" first red red flag. Life is not like Disney and she'll end up infecting him with her misery
AdoonkaAlle
Ragna qowl baa xira, dumarna meher baa xira.
1. What does a crime that was committed 17 yrs ago having anything to do with the current situation ? he's judging the father based on his past not his current status. Furthermore if the father wasn't involved he wouldn't have stated his is lazy ie present not past . The guy is clearly out to portray the father in a negative light, he's not trustworthy for us to believe him. There's a reason he omits the current religiosity and status of the father other than to call him lazy. The guy has no respect for the father simply because he was against him marrying his daughter
2. You clearly lied as the guy is very explicit when he talks about the father going to prison. Even now you continue to bring the father's background for his past actions all in attempt to portray him negatively. The guy is comparing the uncle's current status to the father's past not now. I never once stated the uncle had a criminal past but that it wasn't a coincidence that he was only portrayed positively. The reason being he allowed to marry the girl to him, had he denied him i'm fairly certain he would've disparaged him.
3. Asians have a culture where the daughter is expected to live with her in laws where she's expected to do the cooking, cleaning just like when they lived in their parents house. He doesn't disclose any of this when talking about his sister etc why is this do you think ? So why does he act surprised when he notices it in her family despite expectations overlapping between the 2 cultures ? It would've made sense had he come from a culture where such expectations aren't present in familial relations.
If religion was the only that mattered to his parents they wouldn't have caused problems nor would there have been insults. So how come her parents were not good muslims but his was ? Look at the language his using to talk about her parents and compare it to how he talks about his and tell me there's no double standards ?
4. She bypassed her father and mother to marry this guy, this is obviously will cause a conflict between her and parents. If the father refuses and the uncle marries her off how is it not going to cause a rift between them. Her family were not involved in her marriage only got invited to the nikah and it ended badly. So even if she forced her family's hand it does negate the fact it created a rift between her and her family that continues to this day. The family relations aren't going to be what they used to, this is a fact
5. My comment below was simply countering your exaggerations of her being the father & mother and sacrificing everything for her family. I stated that if this was true then she wouldn't choose a guy over her family she would've continued to prioritise them over any man. The fact that she bypassed her family proves that this isn't the case and is evidence that she does prioritise her OWN needs. If she prioritised herself here then it's obvious that she does it in other occasions as well. So the claim that she's prioritises her family over her own self most of the times isn't simply true
It had nothing to do with being disowned and furthermore she lives 2hrs away from family and visits only on weekends so she's not able to help out as she used.
Maan
What do you bring to the table?
Facts on facts bro, great analysis
He says she doesn't prioritise her own needs but she went against her family wishes to marry him
just shows she is selfish to be choosing him over family
AdoonkaAlle
Ragna qowl baa xira, dumarna meher baa xira.
She's not doing everything for them and the fact that she bypassed her parents to marry this guy has definitely caused a rift that between her & her parents that wasn't there. Not only that but she also has caused a rift between the father & uncle.
Ask yourself who was paying the bill before she came to the country ? if the family had the means to do that before they most certainly have it now. The only difference is that the parents now expect the children to chip in more and they use their money elsewhere. It's obvious the guy is clearly exaggerating to make things appear worse than they're as it reinforces the negative image of the family
If your family was your number 1 priority why would you suddenly prioritise a guy over them ? if this was a case where the family rejected suitors after the other it would've been sort of understanding. Laakin a guy showing up suddenly and you jump ship doesn't make sense anyway you look at it
Honestly, 85% of what you wrote is desperate speculations.
1. If the father is now a different man and he didn't mention it. Then clearly OP is vindictive.
2. The issue with the father clearly isn't just imprisonement. He has a history of fraud and deception. If the father changed and now provides for them, why would he talk about the past? Why would his wife be the one doing everything expected of a father then? So, basically you're arguing he is vindictive.
3.Speculation. We have no proof that the families are still at odds. But we have proof she still sees them and provides for them.
3. Why would he need to mention that his sisters cook and clean?! Since when is cooking and cleaning an issue? Funny how you keep on ignoring that the Somali girl did MORE than cook and clean. She raised her young siblings, took them to all of their parents evening, paid their education, paid the bills ect. Unless his sisters also do that, I fail to see why he would need to mention that. This is what I mean, your argument is based on desperate speculations.
4. You argue 'if this true she wouldn't choose a guy'. Lol, people tire from sacrificing their youth and energy. Why would she continue when she has many brothers?! Did you forget she's the only girl.
5. You also seem to forget her age. She's 33. At that age it isn't simply choosing a guy. It is choosing having children and a family of your own..After 36,especially first time it becomes more complicated. A lot of women would sacrifice a lot to be become mothers.
Most of your points are based on OP being vindictive and speculation.
AdoonkaAlle
Ragna qowl baa xira, dumarna meher baa xira.
Facts on facts bro, great analysis
He says she doesn't prioritise her own needs but she went against her family wishes to marry him
It's just full of contradictions and red flags, if family is that important for a girl then she wouldn't prioritise a man the first chance she gets.
The guy hasn't left honeymoon phase yet the moment he does, i'm definitely certain his patience will run out and not be content to stay any longer in the marriage.
1. Are you okay? Before I come for you I need to know if you're reer America.
2. Many refugee families are on benefits and JSA for the first yr and in many cases unfortunately for many years. This is a common problem in Europe. Where do you think the stereotype about Somali odeys in cafe's/Marfish comes from?!
3. Since the father has a history of scamming and fraud and then got caught, he could have provided using that or it could be straight benefits OR for all we know OP may be vindictive. But the thing is, i'm going by the story.
4. We have no clue about the history of OP's wife and her suitors. Clearly he is not going into delve into her past suitors is he? But what I know and sympathize with is that at 33 women do start to panic about their biological clock. This is a woman who has spent dragging her family on her back, if what OP is saying is true. Why would she not then think enough is enough?!
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You keep on dismissing my point that I made and I think a lot of women will relate to.
No matter how important family is, the need to have your own becomes even more important especially once you reach an age in which marriage and kids becomes more difficult.
How do you know its the 1st chance? Is she 21, is she 25. She's 33.
For someone that over-analyzes I think its crazy that you wouldn't understand this.
You're either delusional or a liar.
The OP clearly said:
The OP clearly said in plain English may I add that she relies on her daughter for Everything. He even said everything multiple times.
So why, did you now twist it to chipping in? Do you know the family personally walaal? Do you personally know that he is lying?
This is a perfect example when I say 85% of what you wrote is pure speculation.
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AdoonkaAlle
Ragna qowl baa xira, dumarna meher baa xira.
Me speculating ? what about you ? you not only lied but also denied that family were against this marriage from the beginning.
The reason why he doesn't bring the father's current status is that it doesn't fit his narrative. He literary says the reason why he was imprisoned was due to fraud, furthermore the scamming etc was in the past. You've no basis at all to defend what you're insinuating about the father other than past actions from 17 yrs ago !!! This is what he wrote about the father
What speculation ? My observation is based on a number of facts, like parents disapproval before and after , nikah nightmare, insults etc How can the family not be at odds when they were against it and she bypassed her wali to marry him ? His mother is never going to accept it and will always treat her differently just look what he writes
Why would we assume that the father approves when he rejected the guy and was taken out of the picture by her ? Wallahi it's cajib the level of ignorance you're displaying here considering the problematic nature of this "marriage"
This guy is resorting to use the father's actions from 17 yrs ago to disparage him, what does that tell you about him ? what does that tells us about the father ? i mean he had to go back 17 yrs to find dirt on him doesn't this not point to the fact has corrected himself ? I wonder what would be his reaction if he was also judged for his past
Even is she did more than cooking and cleaning that's part of her obligation to her parents & family. Parents like us have their shortcomings why would should we focus on them when they've sacrificed more than us ? The girl hasn't done even half what her mother did when she yet somehow she's not entitled to sympathy
No amount of deflection is going to negate the fact that the guy clearly disrespects her parents, cares about his family more than hers while she does her outmost to please his family. The guy has no intention of trying to show the same level of courtesy that his wife has for his family, it's a one sided relationship
Isn't it strange that you are only showing contempt when the sacrifice is for her family laakin when she sacrifices her time and energy to please his family you're quiet why is this ? bal ii sheeg how is this normal ?
Your bias that you've against dhaqaanka soomaliyeed, gaar ahaan ragga soomaliyeed to be more specific is what is blinding you to the above facts and it's the reason why you're willing to give benefit of the doubt to the guy and not the parents.
AdoonkaAlle
Ragna qowl baa xira, dumarna meher baa xira.
So her mother relies on her for everything since she was 16 ? are you even listening to yourself here ? This is clearly an exaggeration on the guy's part, i mean who was paying for the bills before she arrived ?
The moment children start earning enough waalidka for the most part expect ilmaha to take contribute more and take care of everything. How is this any different from other families who've the same expectation from their kids ?
I don't need to know the family personally to recognize that they're being disrespected and disparaged so as to portray them negatively and conclude that they're not good muslims. The fact that the guy is bringing up actions which transpired 17 yrs ago !!! to discredit the father now is all the proof i need to know that he's not trustworthy
