Do you consider yourself to be a feminist and why?

[Periplus]

And? Those are direct quotes and explanation from the Quran.

I don't understand the point you're trying to make? Is this supposed to be your "gotcha" moment.

Good lord. The amount of deflection and mental gymnastics you have been using throughout this post has been mind boggling.

You have used a church’s handbook as your source in this debate.

That immediately tells me that you’re not here for a good faith debate.

Tell me, do you seriously think you’re going to get objective information from a religion actively looking to discredit another?

 

[JohnCena]

Feminism isn’t “equality in demands”.

The definition is equality between the genders.

Therefore, by saying Islam is against it, you’re saying that Allah SWT sees one gender as less equal than the other.

"Therefore, by saying Islam is against it, you’re saying that Allah SWT sees one gender as less equal than the other."

That's exactly the point he's trying to make about your original question... Islam see's men as being superior to women


Genuine question, are you trolling?

 

[Periplus]

According to feminism, males and females should be 100% equal in all matters, and that goes against our religion. For example, one male witness is the same as two female witnesses, but a feminist would say that they should be the same.

“…And get two witnesses out of your own men. And if there are not two men (available), then a man and two women, such as you agree for witnesses, so that if one of them (two women) errs, the other can remind her…”

[al-Baqarah 2:282 – interpretation of the meaning]

In our religion men are required to provide for their wife and children, women are not.
In our religion men are allowed to marry 4 wifes, women are allowed to marry 1 man.
These are just a few examples, i could keep going but I'm sure you understand what I mean.

Where does it say 100% equal in everything?

It says equality between the genders.

Men and women do not have identical roles in Islam but they are equal. Men aren’t expected to give birth and women aren’t expected to fight in war.

 

[Ondro]

Actually, Islam says that men and women are equal but not identical. Many imams will say this exact same phrase.

They have equally important roles but they’re not identical.

So this entire idea of “Islam says women are not equal and therefore I’m against gender equality” is absolute bullshit.

The term you are looking for is spiritually equal in the eyes of Allah SWT. In the dunya we cannot be "equal" unless we are defined exactly the same. No gender is "inferior" rather both are equitable and complimentary to each other.

Gender equality by nature seeks to destroy gender roles, norms and charasteristics while such is emphasized in the Quran and Sunnah. Modern feminism also carries a lot of other baggage like sex positivity, abortions, career > family which is very evil and our deen is against.

I think you should advocate for womens rights to an Islamic end and not follow the misleading creation of liberalism.

 

[Periplus]

"Therefore, by saying Islam is against it, you’re saying that Allah SWT sees one gender as less equal than the other."

That's exactly the point he's trying to make about your original question... Islam see's men as being superior to women


Genuine question, are you trolling?

No, he said “no one is talking about the eyes of Allah SWT”.

I stated that the way that these guys framed the debate clearly made it as such.

 

[JohnCena]

You have used a church’s handbook as your source in this debate.

That immediately tells me that you’re not here for a good faith debate.

Tell me, do you seriously think you’re going to get objective information from a religion actively looking to discredit another?

So let me get this straight.

I provided direct quotes from the Quran and you're talking about the actual source of my quotes?

The source I provided is explaining the exact quotes in detail.

You can find those quotes in the Quran

Yeah you're definitely trolling.

 

[Periplus]

The term you are looking for is spiritually equal in the eyes of Allah SWT. In the dunya we cannot be "equal" unless we are defined exactly the same. No gender is "inferior" rather both are equitable and complimentary to each other.

Gender equality by nature seeks to destroy gender roles, norms and charasteristics while such is emphasized in the Quran and Sunnah. Modern feminism also carries a lot of other baggage like sex positivity, abortions, career > family which is very evil and our deen is against.

I think you should advocate for womens rights to an Islamic end and not follow the misleading creation of liberalism.

I believe in Islamic feminism, equality based on our religion.

I see men and women equal under the eyes of Allah SWT. As far as I’m concerned, the definition of feminism is the equality of genders in general.

That doesn’t conflict with my beliefs.

 

[JohnCena]

Also Liberal feminism is more popular(especially in the west) than the point you're trying to make which is Radical Feminism.

 

[Periplus]

Nah, you know what, it’s almost suhoor time and I have work in the morning.

I stayed up to finish some work and I got dragged into this pointless debate. I’ll let the sisters deal with you when they wake up.

 

[Goodbye ✌]

Liberal feminism is straight dumpster trash. I do think intersectional feminism is a good framework to analyze oppression and discrimination. Alhamdullilah I no longer identify as a feminist. I was so misguided in my early twenties I thank Allah for his guidance.

 

[JohnCena]

Nah, you know what, it’s almost suhoor time and I have work in the morning.

I stayed up to finish some work and I got dragged into this pointless debate. I’ll let the sisters deal with you when they wake up.

Good cop out. I am glad you have seen the errors of your way and learned your lesson.

 

[JohnCena]

Liberal feminism is straight dumpster trash. I do think intersectional feminism is a good framework to analyze oppression and discrimination. Alhamdullilah I no longer identify as a feminist. I was so misguided in my early twenties I thank Allah for his guidance.

High IQ comment.

@Periplus is pretty much you when you were in your early 20s.

 

[Ondro]

I believe in Islamic feminism, equality based on our religion.

I see men and women equal under the eyes of Allah SWT. As far as I’m concerned, the definition of feminism is the equality of genders in general.

That doesn’t conflict with my beliefs.

Alright. Islamic feminism is not mainstream so "why are you not a feminist?" would get you screeches about feminism being incompatible with Islam rather than the type of input you want. I mean, since I am ahlul kitab, I am a feminist too.

 

[bidenkulaha]

We still have issues like maternity leave, the gender pay gap and sexual harassment in the workplace. The true definition of feminism still hasn’t been attained in the West, let alone the rest of the world.

All good things. But feminism fights the 'patriarchy' and traditionalism is a martyr because of that. So goodbye healthy large families, good bye having children being a goal for women, good bye the idea of a mother raising a child, good bye long stable relationship (instead prioritising careers).

There's a reason birth rates plummet in societies that reach 'enlightenment' phase of their social development and as a result their societies collapse.

 

[Periplus]

Good cop out. I am glad you have seen the errors of your way and learned your lesson.

Dude give it a rest.

Alright. Islamic feminism is not mainstream so "why are you not a feminist?" would get you screeches about feminism being incompatible with Islam rather than the type of input you want. I mean, since I am ahlul kitab, I am a feminist too.

I believe what Islam teaches comes under the larger umbrella of feminism as Allah SWT sees both genders as equal in deen.

By ahlul kitab, you mean non-Muslim

Then why did you Islam as a justification for being against feminism?

All good things. But feminism fights the 'patriarchy' and traditionalism is a martyr because of that. So goodbye healthy large families, good bye having children being a goal for women, good bye the idea of a mother raising a child, good bye long stable relationship (instead prioritising careers).

There's a reason birth rates plummet in societies that reach 'enlightenment' phase of their social development and as a result their societies collapse.

That’s what many if not feminists fight for. But feminism is generally about quality between genders.

You can be pro-feminism but anti-feminist.

But being against feminism is stating that you don’t find the genders equal whatsoever.

 

[Badboy4life]

Nah, you know what, it’s almost suhoor time and I have work in the morning.

I stayed up to finish some work and I got dragged into this pointless debate. I’ll let the sisters deal with you when they wake up.

In our religion men are required to provide for their wife and children, women are not.
In our religion men are allowed to marry 4 wifes, women are allowed to marry 1 man.
In our religion 1 male witness is the same as 2 female witnesses.
In our religion women are required to cover their whole body except except their face/hands, men are not.
In our religion it's best for women to pray at home and men at the masjid.
In our religion a woman is encouraged to stay in the house.
In our religion a man can divorce his wife, a women can not divorce her husband.
In our religion a man inherits more than a woman.

All of these points goes against feminism, I don't know how you can call yourself a feminist if you are muslim.

 

[Periplus]

Nah, you know what, it’s almost suhoor time and I have work in the morning.

I stayed up to finish some work and I got dragged into this pointless debate. I’ll let the sisters deal with you when they wake up.

Okay, now I’m gone.

 

[Bubbles]

Not Western feminism, but Islamic feminism.

 

[bidenkulaha]

That’s what many if not feminists fight for. But feminism is generally about quality between genders.

You can be pro-feminism but anti-feminist.

But being against feminism is stating that you don’t find the genders equal whatsoever.

It's unnecessary statement imo but maybe I say it from a place of privilege.

Both genders are clearly not equal in many aspects. Men are physically more capable and women have a natural motherly instinct men can never replace. Men naturally desire more partners than one, it's biological and women desire one. Only societal/environmental pressures affect this.

We're comparing apples to oranges. We're different and imo should have different roles for society to survive. I support equal opportunity don't get me wrong but we should never push for equal outcomes which most feminists push for. IE 50-50 work place, 50-50 politics, 50-50 sports etc

 

[Ondro]

I believe what Islam teaches comes under the larger umbrella of feminism as Allah SWT sees both genders as equal in deen.

In its pretext, feminism strives for equality in every aspect. Sure one or two things align with the Islamic worldview however it is ultimately irreconcilable with Islam.

By ahlul kitab, you mean non-Muslim

Then why did you Islam as a justification for being against feminism?

I took the meaning of the phrase literally but yes I am muslim.