Did Arabization Destroy The Islamic World?

[Helios]

Bear with me here, I've been reading Ibn Khaldun's famous Muqaddimah and I'll be making a series of threads about some various chapters in the book

Ibn Khaldun 1332-1406 was a legendary Arab philospher, Qadi and economist who lived in North Africa


The early Ummayad and Abbasid caliphs leaned heavily on Byzantine and Sassanid Persian governance and prior state institutions/bureacracy and numerous world renowned "Arab" scientists were actually Iranians for example

Omar Khayyam
Ibn Sina/Avicenna
Al-Razi
Al-Majusi
Al-Khwarizmi

These 5 were responsible for numerous breakthroughs in math, philosophy, medicine and wrote numerous treatises and texts that were important to this day. One can argue that the influence was reversed in Iran's case where Persianization of the Abbasids contributed to this innovative environment being nourished.

What's interesting is that a violent repression of Persian language and culture was first instituted by the Ummayads but it failed and the later Islamic Golden age that started under the Abbasids in the 800s was marked by a new tolerance of the non-Arab populations and they spoke both Arabic and Farsi in court poetry and relied heavily on Persian administrators.

25. Places that succumb to the Arabs are quickly ruined.

The reason for this is that (the Arabs) are a savage nation, fully accustomed to savagery and the things that cause it. Savagery has become their character and nature. They enjoy it, because it means freedom from authority and no subservience to leadership.

All the customary activities of the Arabs lead to travel and movement. This is the antithesis and negation of stationariness, which produces civilization.

Furthermore, since they use force to make craftsmen and professional workers do their work, they do not see any value in it and do not pay them for it. Now, as we shall mention,140 labor is the real basis of profit. When labor is not appreciated and is done for nothing, the hope for profit vanishes, and no (productive) work is done. The sedentary population disperses, and civilization decays

Furthermore, (every Arab) is eager to be the leader. Scarcely a one of them would cede his power to another, even to his father, his brother, or the eldest (most important) member of his family. That happens only in rare cases and under pressure of considerations of decency. There are numerous authorities and amirs among them. The subjects have to obey many masters in connection with the control of taxation and law. Civilization, thus, decays and is wiped out.

It is noteworthy how civilization always collapsed in places the Arabs took over and conquered, and how such settlements were depopulated and the (very) earth there turned into something that was no (longer) earth. The Yemen where (the Arabs) live is in ruins, except for a few cities. Persian civilization in the Arab 'Iraq is likewise completely ruined. The same applies to contemporary Syria. When the Banu Hilal and the Banu Sulaym pushed through (from their homeland) to Ifrigiyah and the Maghrib in (the beginning of) the fifth [eleventh] century and struggled there for three hundred and fifty years, they attached themselves to (the country), and the flat territory in (the Maghrib) was completely ruined. Formerly, the whole region between the Sudan and the Mediterranean had been settled. This (fact) is attested by the relics of civilization there, such as monuments, architectural sculpture, and the visible remains of villages and hamlets.

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@Apollo @sincity @Molotoff @One Star To Rule Them All @Yahya @Kingcobra @Nilotufian

 

[SOMALI GENERAL]

An important point to make is the Arabisation process was largely self-inflicted in North Africa. When the Arabs left, Religious zeolots who were Arabised Berbers deluded themselves into thinking the Arabic language was superior to their own Native Language and worked towards making it the first language in the region. This caused many conflicts between Arabised Berbers and regular Berbers.

As for the Iranians, they had enough Nationalistic pride to reject the advances of the Arabic language.

 

[Helios]

An important point to make is the Arabisation process was largely self-inflicted in North Africa. When the Arabs left, Religious zeolots who were Arabised-Berbers deluded themselves into thinking the Arabic language was superior to their own Native Language and worked towards making it the first language in the region. This caused many conflicts between Arabised Berbers and regular Berbers.

As for the Iranians, they had enough Nationalistic pride to reject the advances of the Arabic language.

The mindset is still stuck in them today sadly. An Iranian will look down on an Arab and a Moroccan Berber thinks he's an Arab

Assimilation vs Nationalism


Khaldun himself was an Andalusian Arab and his family had recently moved back to North Africa. Not a Berber whastoever

These are the two Arab tribes that migrated and Khaldun describes the results

When the Banu Hilal and the Banu Sulaym pushed through (from their homeland) to Ifrigiyah and the Maghrib in (the beginning of) the fifth [eleventh] century and struggled there for three hundred and fifty years, they attached themselves to (the country), and the flat territory in (the Maghrib) was completely ruined.

 

[SOMALI GENERAL]

The mindset is still stuck in them today sadly. An Iranian will look down on an Arab and a Moroccan Berber thinks he's an Arab


Khaldun himself was an Andalusian Arab and his family had recently moved back to North Africa. Not a Berber whastoever

These are the two Arab tribes that migrated and gave the Berbers an inferiority complex

Ibn Khaldun may have had some Berber ancestry himself. Although, he certainly made it clear that he was an Arab.

North Africans/Berbers need to look back to their Numidian roots and their ancient King Massinissa who famously proclaimed: "Africa belongs to the Africans" when he fought against the Carthaginians.

 

[Helios]

Ibn Khaldun may have had Berber ancestry himself.

North Africans/Berbers need to look back to their Numidian roots and their ancient King Massinissa who famously proclaimed: "Africa belongs to the Africans" when he fought against the Carthaginians.

He's an Arab not a Berber at all. He belongs to a prominent Andalusian Arab family that originally came from Hadhramaut Yemen and recently moved to North Africa. They served as administrators for the sultanates in Muslim Spain.

Berber history is interesting, there's a new revivalist movement but its often anti-Islamic in nature as well.

 

[SOMALI GENERAL]

He's an Arab not a Berber at all. He belongs to a prominent Andalusian Arab family that originally came from Hadhramaut Yemen and recently moved to North Africa. They served as administrators for the sultanates in Muslim Spain.

Berber history is interesting, there's a new revivalist movement but its often anti-Islamic in nature as well.

Here's an interesting question: If Somalia was conquered by the Umayyad Empire, do you think it would have become heavily Arabised like in North Africa/Berberia or remain largely the same like the Iranians?

 

[Helios]

Here's an interesting question: If Somalia was conquered by the Umayyad Empire, do you think it would have become heavily Arabised like in North Africa/Berberia or remain largely the same like the Iranians?

I think the distance and lack of a land border with the rest of the Islamic World long term would secure us from Arabization. Somalis would still very much be Somalis. The Ummayad decline and then the Abbasid takeover saw a few provinces like Andalusia break off completely from central authority in Baghdad.

We might have an Arab ruled sultanate/sultanates in Somalia that would eventually be toppled or fragment under native pressure and tribalism. Or perhaps it would be Somali led

 

[Omar del Sur]

Evils of Nationalism : Shaykh Abdul Azeez Bin Baaz

Evils of Nationalism : Shaykh Abdul Azeez Bin Baaz

istiqaamah magazine/july1996 This is an important warning against a disease which has adversely affected many groups who ascribe themselves to the noble task of Da’wah. Everything which is ou…

abdurrahman.org

"This is an important warning against a disease which has adversely affected many groups who ascribe themselves to the noble task of Da’wah. Everything which is outside the call of Islaam and the Qur‘aan, with regards to lineage, land, nationality, schools of thoughts and ways, then it is from the calls of jaahiliyyah. perfect opposite is confirmed for Allaah – the Most High.

Indeed Islaam has forbidden the calls of jaahiliyyah (the pre-Islaamic days of ignorance) and there are many textual evidences which forbid all of the characteristics and manners of jaahiliyyah and their actions, except those (good and decent) practices which Islaam agreed to. And there is no doubt that the call to nationalism is from these calls of jaahiliyyah, since nationalism is a call to other than Islaam and an aiding of other than the truth. And how many ills, evils and serious wars has such calls of jaahiliyyah caused to their people, causing great harm to their souls, their wealth and their possessions. The consequences of such calls (for the Muslims) was a splitting up of their unity and a planting of enmity and hatred of each other in their hearts and a fragmentation and splitting between tribes and nations.

Ibn Taymiyyah (d.728H) – rahimahullaah – said: [2] “Everything which is outside the call of Islaam and the Qur‘aan, with regards to lineage, land, nationality, schools of thoughts and ways, then it is from the calls of jaahiliyyah. Indeed, even when the Muhaajirs (those Companions who migrated from Makkah to al-Madeenah) and the Ansaars (those Companions who aided and supported those who migrated) argued, such that one of the Muhaajirs said: “O Muhaajirs! (implying; rally to my aid).” And then one of the Ansaar said: “O Ansaar!” Upon hearing this, the Prophet (sallallaahu ’alayhi wa sallam) said: “Is it with the calls of jaahiliyyah that you call, and I am still amongst you!” And he became very angry at that.” [3]"


One person who was very big on promoting nationalism was Ataturk.

Kemalism - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

"There are six fundamental pillars (ilke) of the ideology: Republicanism (Turkish: cumhuriyetçilik), Populism (Turkish: halkçılık), Nationalism (Turkish: milliyetçilik), Laicism(Turkish: laiklik), Statism (Turkish: devletçilik), and Reformism (or called "Revolutionism", Turkish: inkılâpçılık). Together they represent a kind of Jacobinism, defined by Atatürk himself as a method of utilizing political despotism in order to break down the social despotism prevalent among the traditionally minded Turkish-Muslim population, for which he blamed foremost the bigotry of the ulema.[9]The principles came to be recognized as unchangeable and sacrosanct."

Nationalism is used to undermine Islam. If nationalism is followed to its logical conclusion, non-Arabs will leave Islam altogether. A lot of this anti-Arab stuff is used as a cover for being in favor of undermining Islam.

"Nationalism Is Not (Always) The Enemy of Liberalism
ASLE TOJE
In the 19th century, nationalists were the standard-bearers of liberalism—democratic, forward-looking, progressive. This is no longer the case."

Nationalism Is Not (Always) The Enemy of Liberalism - The American Interest

In the 19th century, nationalists were the standard-bearers of liberalism—democratic, forward-looking, progressive. This is no longer the case.

www.the-american-interest.com

 

[Omar del Sur]

Isn't it nationalism that drives the Hindus to lynch Muslims for eating beef? Isn't it nationalism that drives them to hate Muslims in the first place? Who in the Quran are the people who talk about "my/our forefathers!"? In the Quran, the ones who reject Islam often talk about "my forefathers". And isn't that in India their argument for persecuting Muslims? Isn't that in Europe their argument for hating Muslims and rejecting the true religion?

Was Abraham (peace be upon him) a nationalist? He had to go against his own people.

I think right now is a good time to study Surah Al Kahf (with everything that's going on at present).

The youth who went to the cave- were they nationalists? If they were following nationalism, they wouldn't have gone to the cave to begin with. They were escaping from their own people.

 

[Helios]

Isn't it nationalism that drives the Hindus to lynch Muslims for eating beef? Isn't it nationalism that drives them to hate Muslims in the first place? Who in the Quran are the people who talk about "my/our forefathers!"? In the Quran, the ones who reject Islam often talk about "my forefathers". And isn't that in India their argument for persecuting Muslims? Isn't that in Europe their argument for hating Muslims and rejecting the true religion?

Was Abraham (peace be upon him) a nationalist? He had to go against his own people.

I think right now is a good time to study Surah Al Kahf (with everything that's going on at present).

The youth who went to the cave- were they nationalists? If they were following nationalism, they wouldn't have gone to the cave to begin with. They were escaping from their own people.

Yes but being Arabized doesn't have to do with being Muslim. Adopting a culture rooted in a pastoralist tribal mindset is somewhat part and parcel with Arabization. Which is what Ibn Khaldun points to as a reason for settled Islamic civilization declining

 

[Ace the shank]

thank god us somalis were not arabized

 

[CaliTedesse]

He is talking about nomadic Arabs, which are savages just like nomadic Somalis, Turkic and Berber people were all savages too. Arabs had many scientists too. Also built first University. Alhamdullilah for Arabs. Just look at structures in Yemen and Nabatea what the settled Arabs built.

Yemen: Shabbam technically first skyscraper on Earth.
Morocco: First University built by Arab.
Yemen: Largest ancient dam ever. Ma'rib dam.

Just like any Empire. Arabs instructed other ethnicities to do research or craft for the empire. In Ottoman Turkish Empire. Much was sculpted by Greeks and Armenians.

 

[Ace the shank]

He is talking about nomadic Arabs, which are savages just like nomadic Somalis, Turkic and Berber people were all savages too. Arabs had many scientists too. Also built first University. Alhamdullilah for Arabs. Just look at structures in Yemen and Nabatea what the settled Arabs built.

Yemen: Shabbam technically first skyscraper on Earth.
Morocco: First University built by Arab.
Yemen: Largest ancient dam ever. Ma'rib dam.

Just like any Empire. Arabs instructed other ethnicities to do research or craft for the empire. In Ottoman Turkish Empire. Much was sculpted by Greeks and Armenians.

but cities such as zeila berbra bosaso moqdisho hafun were all built by somalis

 

[Ace the shank]

but cities such as zeila berbra bosaso moqdisho hafun were all built by somalis

am I right or were they built by arabs

 

[CaliTedesse]

am I right or were they built by arabs

Somalis man

 

[Ace the shank]

Somalis man

why did answer that with an attitude tho

 

[CaliTedesse]

why did answer that with an attitude tho

You're funny akhi

 

[Ace the shank]

You're funny akhi

what did I say that was funny

 

[Cyrus]

Arabs contributed more to the Islamic world in both soreaidinf the Deen and contributing to it's intellectual advancement than the Persians. Running around with Majoos propaganda to use as a cover for your Arabphbia won't cut it

 

[Ace the shank]

Arabs contributed more to the Islamic world in both soreaidinf the Deen and contributing to it's intellectual advancement than the Persians. Running around with Majoos propaganda to use as a cover for your Arabphbia won't cut it

stop being a jasoos