Burden of Proof

[Testo 21]

Seek knowledge tru every incident.

 

[DR OSMAN]

Thank you for the kindwords i like to engage these tough topics becasue it strenghtens my faith. For me its like how goats sharpen their horns off hard rocks.

Allah has multiple attributes which he needs to be a god.
Heaven and Hell do no share those for example Heaven and Hell was made by God.
In order for a entity to be a true God they cannot be made but be outside the boundry of time and be uncreated. Heaven and Hell had a start date unlike God.

When u say allah is uncreated, doesn't that mean nothingness? i was uncreated before birth(creation) also, I don't remember to be existing. I am afraid a-lot of the things u attribute to allah just head towards a nothigness state. The other thing why am I being tested? I didn't decide to come to the world, I didn't ask Allah, why am I being held accountable for a choice I didn't make?

Heaven n Hell may be creation, it may have a beginning, but it's eternal, that's a huge attribute of Allah. Plus does it make sense to u a 'short life' on earth has eternal punishment? is disbelief harming allah? he continously says 'no' it doesn' harm him, in our world it's harm that gets punished not if your not being harmed, how is allah just?

 

[DR OSMAN]

Thank you for the kindwords i like to engage these tough topics becasue it strenghtens my faith. For me its like how goats sharpen their horns off hard rocks.

Allah has multiple attributes which he needs to be a god.
Heaven and Hell do no share those for example Heaven and Hell was made by God.
In order for a entity to be a true God they cannot be made but be outside the boundry of time and be uncreated. Heaven and Hell had a start date unlike God.

I welcome that fact u don't live in a bubble and if u do indeed believe in Islam, u won't be offended when someone puts to question what u believe. Since your a fallible person, it could be how u understand Islam has flaws, I don't rush to blame Islam, we must always take into how account how it's taught(the human element) just like I don't rush to condemn medicine due to a few doctors who are wrong.

 

[DR OSMAN]

@Internet Nomad when I read the quran, it sounded like a human nature attributed to a divine nature(allah). Every attribute of allah exist in imperfect forms(justice, punishment, love, guider, king), does that disturb you, that your god behaves, thinks, sounds like a human being? where-as with jesus at least he was physically human, but his non physical parts sounded 'far wiser' as he gave teachings that make u think 'throw the first stone if u r without sin', plus countless statements that make one 'reflect n ponder'.

 

[Internet Nomad]

When u say Allah is uncreated, doesn't that mean nothingness? i was uncreated before birth(creation) also, I don't remember to be existing.

I mean Allah has always been. You are a being thats within the confines of time so you have a start and end. Allah has existed before the bing bang where their was nothingness except Allah.

Here is a great video to explain this topic its 3 minutes long video


The other thing why am I being tested? I didn't decide to come to the world, I didn't ask Allah, why am I being held accountable for a choice I didn't make?

In the islamic world view you did. Prior to our souls being formed into this world in our wombs their was a realm where all souls reside.

Allah asked all the souls do you want free will and that the task would be hard. Humans and Jinn said yes to the task. Everything else said no.


Heaven n Hell may be creation, it may have a beginning, but it's eternal, that's a huge attribute of Allah.

Yes but its only eternal because Allah said so. Something cannot be god if its dependent on something else.Muslims believe if you are solely dependent on something it has become you god. For example in this uote Allah is talking about people who are slaves to their desires.
Have you seen ˹O Prophet˺ the one who has taken their own desires as their god? Will you then be a keeper over them?

Plus does it make sense to u a 'short life' on earth has eternal punishment?

I would like to say some few points that I use to explain the wisdom behind Allah's swt punishment.

1.In our societies we do not punish people for how long the crime is but how severe it is.For example shooting someone takes 1 second but it would give you a long punishment.

2.Why is shirk considered the greatest sin in Islam? To clarify, allow me to give you an example. We can clearly see that a human being and a tree have distinct intrinsic values because it would be much more sinful to cut down a human being than a tree. The intrinsic value of a human and that of Allah, however, differs far more. We can only have a relationship of total obedience with such an entity.

3.Allah is the most knowledgeable and Just we can only put trust in Allah justice.Even if we can not understand
the wisdom behind it.Just like how a child wouldn't understand the wisdom behind the judicial system.

4. Allah SWT says in (Al Quran 6:27)If you couldst but see [them] when they will be made to stand before the fire and will say, "Oh, would that we were brought back [to life]: then we would not give the lie to our Sustainer's messages, but would be among the believers!" ….and if they were brought back [to life], they would return to the very thing which was forbidden to them: for behold, they are indeed liars!

Meaning if they were brought back to earth for 1000 years they would never change submit to Allah. A unending sin would receive a ending punishment.

 

[Internet Nomad]

I welcome that fact u don't live in a bubble and if u do indeed believe in Islam, u won't be offended when someone puts to question what u believe. Since your a fallible person, it could be how u understand Islam has flaws, I don't rush to blame Islam, we must always take into how account how it's taught(the human element) just like I don't rush to condemn medicine due to a few doctors who are wrong.

I dont believe islam has flaws if i were to see any i would of left the religion long time ago. Think about its much more easier to live a life where i can dictate my own values and goals than a life where i had to follow the divine wisdom of allah.

How i understand islam is just a single perspective in a sea of perspextives. Radical extremists and Far right islamophobes have the same interpretation but the only difference they are on two different sides of the scripture.

There are liberal muslims who have more value in societal norms than their religion. Which makes no sense because if you think god was wise enough to create life and the universe he wouldn't be wise enough to create the perfect laws for society.

 

[DR OSMAN]

When u say Allah is uncreated, doesn't that mean nothingness? i was uncreated before birth(creation) also, I don't remember to be existing.

I mean Allah has always been. You are a being thats within the confines of time so you have a start and end. Allah has existed before the bing bang where their was nothingness except Allah.

Here is a great video to explain this topic its 3 minutes long video


The other thing why am I being tested? I didn't decide to come to the world, I didn't ask Allah, why am I being held accountable for a choice I didn't make?

In the islamic world view you did. Prior to our souls being formed into this world in our wombs their was a realm where all souls reside.

Allah asked all the souls do you want free will and that the task would be hard. Humans and Jinn said yes to the task. Everything else said no.


Heaven n Hell may be creation, it may have a beginning, but it's eternal, that's a huge attribute of Allah.

Yes but its only eternal because Allah said so. Something cannot be god if its dependent on something else.Muslims believe if you are solely dependent on something it has become you god. For example in this uote Allah is talking about people who are slaves to their desires.
Have you seen ˹O Prophet˺ the one who has taken their own desires as their god? Will you then be a keeper over them?

Plus does it make sense to u a 'short life' on earth has eternal punishment?

I would like to say some few points that I use to explain the wisdom behind Allah's swt punishment.

1.In our societies we do not punish people for how long the crime is but how severe it is.For example shooting someone takes 1 second but it would give you a long punishment.

2.Why is shirk considered the greatest sin in Islam? To clarify, allow me to give you an example. We can clearly see that a human being and a tree have distinct intrinsic values because it would be much more sinful to cut down a human being than a tree. The intrinsic value of a human and that of Allah, however, differs far more. We can only have a relationship of total obedience with such an entity.

3.Allah is the most knowledgeable and Just we can only put trust in Allah justice.Even if we can not understand
the wisdom behind it.Just like how a child wouldn't understand the wisdom behind the judicial system.

4. Allah SWT says in (Al Quran 6:27)If you couldst but see [them] when they will be made to stand before the fire and will say, "Oh, would that we were brought back [to life]: then we would not give the lie to our Sustainer's messages, but would be among the believers!" ….and if they were brought back [to life], they would return to the very thing which was forbidden to them: for behold, they are indeed liars!

Meaning if they were brought back to earth for 1000 years they would never change submit to Allah. A unending sin would receive a ending punishment.

Ok but in our justice system on earth their has to be harm element for punishment. Allah repeats many times disbelievers are not harming him, so why is he hell bent on punishing them for not harming him thru disbelief?

The statement you said I or humans decided to come to earth before birth when they were souls, is your belief, but their no proof I existed before birth nor is their any proof where I go after death. Infact some 'err' to history arguing if we didn't exist before birth, we most likely won't exist after death. So the question of being 'tested' is merely a belief of yours, their nothing solid u can use to prove i or any human decided to come to earth.

Please refrain from adding 'non provable' state of existences such as prior to birth or after death into your arguments. Plus who's at fault for disbelieving, muslims repeat constantly only allah guides, on that argument, one cannot guide himself, therefore one should not shoulder responsibilty for his disbelief. If Allah doesn't want you, their nothing a human can do to reverse that and it's silly then he punishes them for essentially not guiding them in the first place.

 

[DR OSMAN]

@Internet Nomad before the big bang is like 'before u were born' it's non-existence place, so when religious ppl use that statement, they assume their is existence before the big bang lol.

 

[Internet Nomad]

when i was talking about souls prior to being born i was speaking from a islamic viewpoint i was under the assumption you was asking me how do i justify these think as a muslim to a non-muslim.

Before the big bang there was existance. The one existance that their always was … Allah. Something had to make the event occur

 

[DR OSMAN]

@Internet Nomad 4 argument sakes let propose Islam is true and Allah does exist. Is all his message to humanity is 'worship and praise me' which is essentially the message of Islam? Is that a message that sounds like something that would come from superior being to us?

 

[Internet Nomad]

Ok but in our justice system on earth their has to be harm element for punishment. Allah repeats many times disbelievers are not harming him, so why is he hell bent on punishing them for not harming him thru disbelief?

The statement you said I or humans decided to come to earth before birth when they were souls, is your belief, but their no proof I existed before birth nor is their any proof where I go after death. Infact some 'err' to history arguing if we didn't exist before birth, we most likely won't exist after death. So the question of being 'tested' is merely a belief of yours, their nothing solid u can use to prove i or any human decided to come to earth.

Please refrain from adding 'non provable' state of existences such as prior to birth or after death into your arguments. Plus who's at fault for disbelieving, muslims repeat constantly only allah guides, on that argument, one cannot guide himself, therefore one should not shoulder responsibilty for his disbelief. If Allah doesn't want you, their nothing a human can do to reverse that and it's silly then he punishes them for essentially not guiding them in the first place.

why is he hell bent on punishing them for not harming him thru disbelief?

Before we continue down this path there two types of people we have to differentiate

The person who has never received the message of islam, or was mentally unfit to comprehend the message, or was given the message but it was so corrupted that he was misguided. these people will be judged differently than the people who has received the message but out their own kibir that they didn't follow it.

These misguided people have a different test of if they will enter the hellfire or not.

Allah is not hell bent on putting people in the hellfire for example there was a prostitute who done the simple act of giving a starving dog water and because of that act she was given paradise.

Its true someone who sins is only harming them self and not god. However a person who has received the message of god and still says no is someone who completely goes against the reason of their creation knowingly.

 

[Internet Nomad]

@Internet Nomad 4 argument sakes let propose Islam is true and Allah does exist. Is all his message to humanity is 'worship and praise me' which is essentially the message of Islam? Is that a message that sounds like something that would come from superior being to us?

That isn't the only message he gave us.
He tells to visit the sick
He tells us to donate to the orphans and the poor
He tells us to speak kindly to one another
He tells us to forgive and don't be the first one to strike each other.
He tells us to be truthful.
He tells us don't be suspicious of one another.

The prophet told us the best one of amongst you is the one who is best to their wife.

You yourself know that was a gross oversimplification of the deen.

 

[DR OSMAN]

why is he hell bent on punishing them for not harming him thru disbelief?

Before we continue down this path there two types of people we have to differentiate

The person who has never received the message of islam, or was mentally unfit to comprehend the message, or was given the message but it was so corrupted that he was misguided. these people will be judged differently than the people who has received the message but out their own kibir that they didn't follow it.

These misguided people have a different test of if they will enter the hellfire or not.

Allah is not hell bent on putting people in the hellfire for example there was a prostitute who done the simple act of giving a starving dog water and because of that act she was given paradise.

Its true someone who sins is only harming them self and not god. However a person who has received the message of god and still says no is someone who completely goes against the reason of their creation knowingly.

Belief n Disbelief are choices that humans can make thru free will. If I said I don't have any belief or faith in you to do 'something', is my belief or disbelief causing u harm? of course not. So why does Allah punish them, he even admitted multiple time it's not harming him.

 

[DR OSMAN]

That isn't the only message he gave us.
He tells to visit the sick
He tells us to donate to the orphans and the poor
He tells us to speak kindly to one another
He tells us to forgive and don't be the first one to strike each other.
He tells us to be truthful.
He tells us don't be suspicious of one another.

The prophet told us the best one of amongst you is the one who is best to their wife.

You yourself know that was a gross oversimplification of the deen.

I don't disagree there is a moral component to Islam on how to live which most of it is common sense, but you can't deny your relationship with allah is merely 'praise and worship' either, hasn't it crossed your mind what sort of god cares for such petty acts of devotion.

Wouldn't God prefer intelligent ppl debating him back n forth not just being 'mere slave' in total submission, infact didn't he create us cause he got bored of the angels constant devotion only to then ask us to do such thing is ridiculous.

 

[Internet Nomad]

I don't disagree there is a moral component to Islam on how to live which most of it is common sense, but you can't deny your relationship with allah is merely 'praise and worship' either, hasn't it crossed your mind what sort of god cares for such petty acts of devotion.

Wouldn't God prefer intelligent ppl debating him back n forth not just being 'mere slave' in total submission, infact didn't he create us cause he got bored of the angels constant devotion only to then ask us to do such thing is ridiculous.

What other relation could a human have with a being that we cannot mentally grasp. You want us to have romantic ties with him or become arch enemies. Allah is so greater than everything else we choose to be his followers.

We are not mere slaves as a slave cannot choose. We are beings who decide to submit to Allah only.

Allah states if mankind could not sin he would of destroyed us and replaced us with a creation than can sin.
He wants to test us see who can strive for glory and those who cannot. And he will either reward them or punish them respectively.

We are not creations of his bordem because Allah knows everything so he was always intending to create us. Allah doesnt get bored. You say the Quran adds human attributes to god but here you are.

There are no creation that can debate Allah because is all wise if there was then Allah wouldn't be all wise and thus not a god.

 

[Internet Nomad]

I believe you have holes in your knowledge so you only get a part of the full image and with that tiny part you mistake what the whole picture is about.

These question your asking was questions which were all running through my head since the age of 14 but alhamdillah i was able to answer 90% of them and the rest i have trust in the word of Allah and his wisdom.

What could help you believe in islam is not philosophical arguments but maybe the divine revelations. Maybe in your spare time at how the prophet Muhammed SAW was able to predict many things without any of them being wrong or the scientifical statements which was 100years before its time. Or even look how elegant the Quran is do you seriously believe a single man in a cave who didn't know how to read or write was able to create a style of governance that created the biggest empire's in history

 

[Bundasliga]

When u say allah is uncreated, doesn't that mean nothingness? i was uncreated before birth(creation) also, I don't remember to be existing. I am afraid a-lot of the things u attribute to allah just head towards a nothigness state.

No. How you come to such conclusions?
Uncreated means Allah always existed. Where do you get nothingness from ?

 

[DR OSMAN]

I believe you have holes in your knowledge so you only get a part of the full image and with that tiny part you mistake what the whole picture is about.

These question your asking was questions which were all running through my head since the age of 14 but alhamdillah i was able to answer 90% of them and the rest i have trust in the word of Allah and his wisdom.

What could help you believe in islam is not philosophical arguments but maybe the divine revelations. Maybe in your spare time at how the prophet Muhammed SAW was able to predict many things without any of them being wrong or the scientifical statements which was 100years before its time. Or even look how elegant the Quran is do you seriously believe a single man in a cave who didn't know how to read or write was able to create a style of governance that created the biggest empire's in history

I may indeed have holes in my understanding, that's why im posing these questions to u to see if they stand on any 'legitimacy' depending on your answers. But yes a-lot of my questions are rooted back to when I was younger and baffled with the concepts in Islam.

I could not come to believe a god is as petty as us with rewards/punishements, had human like attributes, the only acceptable form of relationship to him is thru praise/worship. I found it baffling he can't create a model that is not human like in everything, he has all the traits of humans good/bad i would expected something more unique then that.

 

[Internet Nomad]

I may indeed have holes in my understanding, that's why im posing these questions to u to see if they stand on any 'legitimacy' depending on your answers. But yes a-lot of my questions are rooted back to when I was younger and baffled with the concepts in Islam.

I could not come to believe a god is as petty as us with rewards/punishements, had human like attributes, the only acceptable form of relationship to him is thru praise/worship. I found it baffling he can't create a model that is not human like in everything, he has all the traits of humans good/bad i would expected something more unique then that.

You see it as petty becauae maybe you cannot see the wisdom in it. Plus a god would be the objective morality so god would dictate what is right or wrong.

for example imagine tomorrow scientist were able to make a drug that gives you 1
Billion iq. Someone drinks it and people start asking it questions about life. It says somethings you disagree with but how are you on the level to judge its its right or wrong its on a level much higher than you will ever be able to imagine.

Thats why god always starts of every chapter in the quran talking about his mercy except 1. For us to be reassured that he is a kind god and not a evil one.

 

[DR OSMAN]

@Internet Nomad u may be right it maybe petty from my frame of reference and it may indeed be a very wise book, but i've yet to see any muslim convince me of that yet, do I hold out hope one day a muslim will provide me with confidence in this book? yes I do. The only reason why I haven't completely thrown it out is I give it the benefit of the doubt, Islamic world is in a dark age post colonial(with 69-80 iq) ranges and therefore it's their intelligence that maybe a factor why the book isn't appealing to me.

But I personally would be dishonest if I said I believe in the current Islam, it would require me to dumb myself down to accept it. I do read islamic texts from a period n time where their intelligence was higher, I seek the time period where they were no 1 in the world as I assume their religious teaching would reflect a far higher grade.