Bantus are not even native to Cameroon

Discussion in 'Culture & History' started by Apollo, Apr 9, 2019.

  1. Apollo

    Apollo Staff Member Moderator

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    Nevermind, basically researchers thought that Bantus came from Southeast Nigeria/Southwest Cameroon 4,000 years ago.. but with the study referred to in the OP it suggests otherwise and may change their origin story.
     
  2. Gabz19988

    Gabz19988

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    In others words they are more legendary then we previously thought. The mongols of the African continent. Interesting :hmm:
     
  3. Grant

    Grant VIP

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    Apollo uses a professional jargon to avoid standard usage and authorities like Ehret, Abdullahi, etc. Hadza and Sandawe are both recognized Khoisan languages. Ehret says that both Dahalo and proto-Southern Cushitic have Khoisan substrates, indicating the earlier inhabitants of the area from the Jubba to the Tana spoke Khoisan languages.

    Previously linked. Links on request.
     
  4. Cuneo

    Cuneo

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    Ehret is a known anti Hamite. He and other scholars have downplayed our contribution to African history especially the Nile Valley and Horn of Africa but also South Eastern Africa because of European guilt complex (Hamitic hypothesis).

    Also Hadza and Sandawe are not Khoisan.

    Dahalo are most likely a mix between Cushitic people and Sandawe like Hunter Gatherers.

    Either way none of these populations are Khoisan.
     
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  5. Apollo

    Apollo Staff Member Moderator

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    They are language isolates with no connection to the South African Khoisan.

    Moreover, the true Khoisan are the most extremely diverged population on the planet. Most mainline Sub-Saharan Africans are closer to Eurasians when whole genome methods are used than to the true Khoisan.
     
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  6. Grant

    Grant VIP

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    The word you are looking for is "Khoisanid". This is not it.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khoisan

    "The compound term Khoisan / Khoesān is a modern anthropological convention, in use since the early-to-mid 20th century. Khoisan is a coinage by Leonhard Schulze in the 1920s and popularised by Isaac Schapera.[6] It enters wider usage from the 1960s, based on the proposal of a "Khoisan" language family by Joseph Greenberg.

    Khoesān peoples were historically also grouped as Cape Blacks (Afrikaans: Kaap Swartes) or Western Cape Blacks (Afrikaans: Wes-Kaap Swartes) to distinguish them from the Niger-Congo-speaking "Bantoid" or "Congoid" blacks of the other parts of sub-Saharan Africa. Derived from this is the term Capoid used in 20th century anthropological literature. An equivalent term derived from the compound Khoisan is Khoisanid, in use primarily in genetic genealogy.[7][8]"

    Not only are the Khoisan externally divergent, they are also internally divergent. Now restricted to South Africa, this population supplied those who left Africa, returned, and became all the folks that now are.

    Look it up. "Khoisan Languages" include Sandawe, who may be related to the Khoe. The Hadza are haplotype "B". related to pygmies.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khoisan_languages

    "Before the Bantu expansion, Khoisan languages, or languages like them, were likely spread throughout southern and eastern Africa. They are currently restricted to the Kalahari Desert, primarily in Namibia and Botswana, and to the Rift Valley in central Tanzania.[2]"
     
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  7. Apollo

    Apollo Staff Member Moderator

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    There are many linguists who contest it. It is a lazily put together language family with barely any links to each other. The Hadza and Sandawe are language isolates. Eurasia has tons, why can't Africa have them?

    The FIRST sentence on the Hadza language page:

    ''Hadza is a language isolate spoken along the shores of Lake Eyasi in Tanzania by around 1,000 Hadza people.''

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hadza_language

    Another useful quote:

    '' The links with Sandawe, for example, are Cushitic loanwords, whereas the links with southern Africa are so few and so short (usually single consonant–vowel syllables) that they are most likely coincidental. ''

    Secondly, I don't even care about the linguistics because from the genetic data I can clearly tell they are nothing like the true Khoisan. These Tanzanian HGs severely lack L0d/L0k while this is the dominant maternal lineage in the true Khoisan.

    Neither do they form autosomal clusters with the true Khoisan. They are simply completely different peoples:

    https://academic.oup.com/gbe/article/10/3/875/4935243

    Stop romanticizing the Khoisan. They never lived in Somalia, period.
     
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  8. Grant

    Grant VIP

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    Stop creating unnecessary semantic issues and throwing the baby out with the bath water!

    Your link:

    "In the Hadza population, the distribution of Y chromosomes includes mostly B2 haplogroups, with a smaller number of E1b1a haplogroups, which are common in Niger-Congo-speaking populations, and E1b1b haplogroups, which are common in Cushitic populations (Tishkoff et al. 2007). In the Sandawe population, E1b1a and E1b1b haplogroups are more common, with lower frequencies of B2 and A3b2 haplogroups (Tishkoff et al. 2007). Using autosomal data, Tishkoff et al. (2009)concluded that the Hadza population had ∼72% ancestry distantly related to Khoisan and Pygmy ancestries, with ∼22% Niger-Congo ancestry and ∼6% Cushitic ancestry. Similarly, the Sandawe population had ∼73% ancestry distantly related to Khoisan and Pygmy ancestries, with ∼18% Niger-Congo ancestry and ∼9% Cushitic ancestry (Tishkoff et al. 2009). Henn et al. (2011) concluded that 1) the Hadza and Sandawe populations share ancestry with the South African ≠Khomani population but distinct from Pygmy ancestry, 2) the Hadza and Sandawe populations share substantial amounts of eastern African ancestry with the Maasai population in Kenya, 3) the Hadza and Sandawe populations share ancestry with Niger-Congo-speaking populations such as Yoruba from Nigeria and Luhya from Kenya, and 4) the Sandawe population shares a small amount of ancestry with Europeans (represented by Tuscans from Italy). Using whole-genome sequence data, Lachance et al. (2012)concluded that Khoisan-speaking populations diverged first, followed by divergence of Pygmies, and then followed by divergence of the ancestors of the Hadza and Sandawe populations. Pickrell et al. (2012) also inferred that the Hadza and Sandawe populations shared ancestry with Khoisan-speaking populations, with gene flow around 3,000 years ago of west Eurasian ancestry into eastern Africa (Pickrell et "

    "We found the largest amounts of Cushitic ancestry in Somalia and Ethiopia, with smaller amounts across northern Africa and the Middle East (Shriner et al. 2014). In Tanzania, we detected more Cushitic than Arabian or Nilo-Saharan ancestry (Shriner et al. 2014). Across southern Africa, we detected more Nilo-Saharan ancestry than Cushitic ancestry and no Arabian ancestry (Shriner et al. 2014). The Nama sample was the only southern African sample in which we detected Cushitic ancestry, likely identical to the East African ancestry shared between the Nama and the Maasai (Schlebusch et al. 2012). This result is consistent with the high frequency in the Nama of the lactase persistence trait, which is associated with pastoralists more so than with foragers or agriculturists, and the derived allele –14010*C, thought to have originated in eastern Africa (Coelho et al. 2009; Macholdt et al. 2014) or more specifically within individuals with Cushitic ancestry (Breton et al. 2014; Ranciaro et al. 2014). This result is also consistent with the distribution of the Y chromosomal haplogroup E3b1f-M293, proposed to have spread from eastern to southern Africa before the Bantu Expansion (Henn et al. 2008). Taken together, we infer that west Eurasian ancestry reflects the Arabian parentage of Cushitic ancestry."

    Check out how livestock got to South Africa:

    http://theconversation.com/ancient-...origins-of-livestock-herding-in-africa-114387

    Now the real issue was Khoisan in Somalia. We have at least 3 contenders: The pre-Dahaloans, who may be the Aweer; the Berdaale peoples, who are probably the Eyle; and the Reer Manyo, who appear to be both an occupation and a descent group. These groups are much diminished and disappearing fast, but they are still with us and can be studied if they are not intentionally hidden away.

    One mixed individual randomly selected from Baidoa does not an acceptable sample of Eyle make. At least some Aweer are B2. You have any Reer Manyo or Jaaji?

    Stop making your conclusions before the studies are done!
     
  9. Apollo

    Apollo Staff Member Moderator

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    You are copy-pasting a study from 2009 (over a decade old, using outdated microsatellite technology) while I cited a study from 2018 using more modern whole genome data and it showed that the Hadza-Sandawe do not form autosomal clusters with the true Khoisan. They are not the same people, period.

    https://academic.oup.com/gbe/article/10/3/875/4935243 (Shriner et al. 2018)

    As for the Dahalo: they have already been genotyped using whole genome technology. They are majority Cushitic with minor Bantu and Hadza-like admixture. They are not Khoisan and cluster nowhere near the true Khoisan. They are much much closer to ethnic Somalis than to the true Khoisan of Southern Africa.

    https://www.pnas.org/content/116/10/4166 (Scheinfeldt et al. 2019)

    As for the B2b in the Aweer/Bon, 1) your dumb ass needs to realize that B2b (aka M112 has a formation date of over 58,700 years before present - this is as deep of a divergence as the one giving rise to West vs East Eurasian (separate races) - hence, it is not a true Khoisan marker. The Khoisan have their own version of B2b that diverged from Southeast Africans nearly 60,000 years. Again, showing that they are not racially Khoisan (which was obvious to everyone except to knuckleheads like you). 2) Bantu populations of Southeast Africa carry B2b and it could have been spread to the Aweer/Bon via HG admixed enslaved Tanzanian Bantus who were released into the bush of far Southern Somalia and it may have nothing to do with paleolithic inhabitants of Somalia who could have instead been predominantly ancient & rare forms of y E.

    I swear you are a clown, give up on this Khoisan shtick, it is embarrassing. The data is so against you.

    The fact that you rely so heavily on quotes instead of your own arguments also shows how little you know on this subject.
     
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  10. Grant

    Grant VIP

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    Insults are no substitute for data.

    :gaasdrink:

    That is YOUR link. Go check it. My quote begins with the second paragraph in the introduction. My only link in that post was to the origin of livestock in South Africa, which has to do with when the sheep and the Khoe arrived. You seem to be missing that migration entirely, so perhaps you should read it. It makes little difference here when the Khoe separated originally from the San; what is significant is when they moved back south, from where, and with what stock. Despite the millennia of separation and Khoe change to pastoral lifestyle, your own article makes it impossible to deny the relatedness.

    You have zero studies from Somalia and nothing on the candidates I mentioned. You are jumping the gun as well as confusing the issue with specialist semantics. Wait for the studies. Better yet, promote them.
     
  11. Apollo

    Apollo Staff Member Moderator

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    Idiot, I know that, but the claim is made based on data from a 2009 study.

    This debate is extremely retarded. Southeast African hunter-gatherers are not Khoisan. There is loads of data to prove that. They are their own thing.

    Typical white supremacist neocolonialist white man thinking all Africans are the same.
     
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  12. Grant

    Grant VIP

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    Duh! It was your link.

    Now, here's for hunter-gatherers:

    https://www.livescience.com/23378-african-hunter-gatherers-human-origins.html

    "Instead of pinpointing a single location from which modern humans arose, the genetic analysis revealed "different parts of Africa show up as potentially being the origin of anatomically modern humans," Jakobsson said. That suggests many different groups contributed to the gene pool "that then later on became anatomically modern humans," he explained.

    The research also yielded insights on how pastoralism first spread to southern Africa. Among the Nama, a pastoralist Khoe group, the scientists found a small but very distinct genetic component that is shared with east Africans — for instance, the cattle-herding Maasai.

    "We postulate that this east African component was introduced by east African groups that brought pastoralist practices to southern Africa," Schlebusch said."
    -------------------------------------------------------

    The Nama migration bringing sheep, goats and cattle to South Africa was only 2-3 Kya, and before the Bantu Expansion. It started at some point north of Botswana, which could have been as far as Egypt or the Levant.

    You should have read the livestock material I gave you.

    https://theconversation.com/the-story-of-how-livestock-made-its-way-to-southern-africa-64256

    Furthermore:

    https://www.pnas.org/content/105/31/10693

    "The recent common ancestry between southern African Khoe-San- and northern Tanzanian M293-derived individuals seems to be independent of the Bantu-speaking populations. Out of our sample of 94 individuals from eastern African Bantu-speaking populations, only one individual carried the M293(DYS389I-10) allele. The only other Bantu-speaking individual with this allele was sampled from South Africa. Furthermore, only the M293* haplotype from one set of Kxoe individuals falls within three steps of the haplotype of an eastern African Bantu-speaking individual (Fig. 1). The distance between M293 Y-STR haplotypes of Bantu speakers and southern African Khoe-San speakers strongly suggests a migration of non-Bantu-speakers to southern Africa distinct from the Bantu migration 1,500 ya. The direct haplotype sharing between Sandawe/Kxoe and !Kung/Hadza/Datog leads us to argue for a migration between Tanzania and southern-central Africa (specifically, northern Namibia and southern Angola)."
    -------------------------------------

    Notice that northern Tanzania is not the limit for the northern starting point of the Nama (Khoe, Khoi) migration.

    And who is the one lumping Africans?
     
    Last edited: Aug 13, 2019
  13. Apollo

    Apollo Staff Member Moderator

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    ^ E-M293 is a South Cushitic marker of E1b1b1 (E-M35). It was spread relatively recently by Cushitic pastoralists (of Red Sea origin) into Southern Africa, not by hunter-gatherers. This was the primary male lineage of those Kenyan Cushites sampled in that recent ancient DNA study (Prendergast et al. 2019) who clustered autosomally close to Somalis.

    Also, this element represents no more than 7-20% of Khoisan's autosomal ancestry (mainly in the Nama/Khoi, less so in the San). (Source)

    Lastly, this does not prove that Southeast African hunter-gatherers are Khoisan, it only shows that Cushite nomads made it to Southern Africa. It does not help your dumb argument whatsoever. Neolithic/pastoral populations were always way more mobile than paleolithic/hunter-gatherer ones.
     
  14. Grant

    Grant VIP

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    OK. That is easy enough to correct.

    Look up Hottentot. Early European settlers at the Cape didn't know the San or any hunter-gatherers. They knew only the Hottentots (the Khoe), who were pastoralists.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hottentot_(racial_term)

    "The main meaning of Hottentot as an ethnic term in the 19th and the 20th centuries has therefore been to denote the Khoikhoi people specifically.[9] However, Hottentot also continued to be used through the eighteenth, nineteenth, and twentieth centuries in a wider sense, to include all of the people now usually referred to with the modern term Khoisan (not only the Khoikhoi, but also the San people, hunter-gatherer populations from the interior of Southern Africa who had not been known to the seventeenth-century settlers, once often referred to as Bosjesmans in Dutch and Bushmen in English).[10][11]"

    [​IMG]

    The Khoi were never known to be hunter-gatherers. They originate somewhere north of Tanzania and suddenly appear slightly before the beginning of the Common Era in northern Botswana. When first known, they already had a fully developed nomadic pastoral culture, complete with Levantine sheep and goats and humpless, shorthorn cattle similar to those from Egypt and Eritrea. They used the cattle for transport, much as the Somalis used camels. They pushed south, filling the better lands at the Cape by the first century of the Common Era.with vast herds which made the Dutch, who arrived in the mid-1600s, envious. The Dutch, followed by the English and the Germans, relentlessly pushed the Khoi west and north, into the dry, desert areas. Between 1904 and 1908, most of these folks were killed by the Germans in the Herero and Namaqua genocides.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herero_and_Namaqua_genocide

    The Khoi became the Nama, Griqua, etc. Look it up, They brought the livestock that was already all over South Africa when the Europeans first arrived

    .https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Animal_husbandry_in_South_Africa
     
  15. Cuneo

    Cuneo

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    ^
    You’re not even trying to hide your attempt to rewrite our history.

    Animal husbandry and genes regulating lactase persistence were introduced to the Khoe by Cushites.

    How does it feel Grant that some ethnic Somalis carry the paternal haplogroup of the indigenous Paleolithic Horn of Africans unlike the Eyle and other semi Bantu communities?

    I would like to add that ALL ethnic Somalis carry autosomal DNA from the indigenous Paleolithic Horn of Africans.
     
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  16. Grant

    Grant VIP

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    Uh, excuse me.....

    https://www.pnas.org/content/105/31/10693

    "As argued above, the M293 clade provides evidence of a migration independent of the initial Bantu expansion. If indeed M293 is indicative of the spread of pastoralism, then the Y-chromosome does not support the model of Bantu-speaking agropastoralists initially introducing sheep to southern Africa. Instead, haplogroup E3b1f-M293 points toward a different source population for the immigrating pastoralists. The shared Sandawe/Kxoe and Hadza/Datog/!Kung haplotype supports a connection between radically different branches of Khoisan. However, it is also possible that a third population contributed the same haplotypes to both the Sandawe, Hadza, !Kung, and Kxoe within a relatively short period. The Hadza/Datog/!Kung haplotype sharing supports this hypothesis. More than any other East African population in our dataset, the Datog dominate the M293(DYS389I-10) diversity (Fig. 1) and overall M293 diversity (Table 1). Newman (36), in his study of the Sandawe subsistence strategies, describes one Sandawe clan, the Alagwa, which is derived from people with Barabaig heritage. Barabaig is a dialect of Datog, a Southern Nilotic language, and Barabaig individuals self-report their ethnicity as Datog. This Barabaig clan became incorporated into the Sandawe because of their purported rainmaking abilities and eventually came to occupy a dominant position within the Sandawe society (36). Ethnographic evidence and shared Y-STR haplotypes support exchange between Tanzanian click-speaking groups and Southern Nilotic-speaking groups in Tanzania (10). Given the high frequency and diversity of E3b1f-M293 in the Datog, our data provide tentative support for a Southern Nilotic linguistic affiliation of the population responsible for introducing pastoralism to southern Africa."

    It's not me, re-writing history.

    Notice the use of the word "Khoisan". Notice that the pastoralist migration they are talking about has Nilotic connections, not Cushitic. Read the whole paper. It was a demic migration, ie the livestock and the people physically moved.

    We don't yet know about the Eyle.

    Some links would be nice.
     
  17. Cuneo

    Cuneo

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    Yes, you’re trying to rewrite our history but you’re failing miserably.

    You post outdated articles simply because they confirm your bias.

    When the article you’ve posted has been debunked by newer studies, you switch tactics and post Wikipedia articles lol. This is a reoccurring theme.

    E-M293 is a South Cushitic marker that was introduced to Southern Africa by South Cushitic pastoralists. Animal husbandry and genes regulating lactase persistence were introduced by these same pastoralist! This is undeniable and irrefutable.

    Ethnic Somalis are closer to the Paleolithic Horn Africans than Eyle and other semi Bantu communities. I know it’s hard for you to digest but that’s the truth!
     
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  18. Apollo

    Apollo Staff Member Moderator

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    You are absolutely pathetic. Now you want to claim that E-M293 is Nilotic when it is clearly South Cushitic. Those E-M293 pastoralists have already been sequenced for their whole genome and they cluster near Somalis and Ethiopians and E-M293 was their dominant lineage. Some of them were even more West Eurasian than contemporary ethnic Somalis.

    Prendergast et al. 2019

    Its parental subclade originated in Eritrea/Red Sea region, so clearly Cushitic as it gets:

    ''We observed the highest frequency and diversity of this haplogroup in the northern part of the Horn of Africa (present day Eritrea and northern Ethiopia), where the majority of the deepest E-V1515 subhaplogroups and paragroups were found. In the southern part of the Horn (southern Ethiopia, Somalia and northern Kenya), haplogroup E-V1515 is almost exclusively represented by the recent (3.5 ka; 95% CI: 1.7–5.9 ka) subhaplogroup E-V1486. Further south, in southern Kenya and southern Africa, a single E-V1486 terminal clade, known as E-M293 (Henn et al. 2008), was found (fig. 3). This phylogeographic pattern is strongly suggestive of human movements from the northern part of the Horn to the Ethiopian/Kenyan borders between 12 ka (the coalescence of E-V1515) and 3.5 ka (the coalescence of E-V1486), and from here toward southern Africa across the equatorial belt in more recent times.[2]''

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E-Z827#E-V1515
     
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  19. Grant

    Grant VIP

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    E-M293 is only part of the Khoe heritage and this new stuff doesn't change the old stuff that much.. What I'm reading elsewhere suggests the Khoe moved from Tanzania/Kenya to northern Botswana before moving further south. Note the similarities of all foragers in the region, which would include Somalia and the south-central Rift Valley.

    My link:
    https://www.pnas.org/content/105/31/10693

    "Given the high frequency and diversity of E3b1f-M293 in the Datog, our data provide tentative support for a Southern Nilotic linguistic affiliation of the population responsible for introducing pastoralism to southern Africa." (Check the Nilotic languages in Tanzania/Kenya.)

    Your link:

    https://reich.hms.harvard.edu/sites...stLipsonSawchuk_Science_PastoralNeolithic.pdf

    "Our results support archaeological hypotheses that no matter the routes they took, early herders interacted with local foragers as they spread (16, 42). In eastern Africa, extensive forager-herder interactions have been proposed both in the Turkana Basin and during the initial trickle of herding into the south-central Rift Valley (6–10, 16, 17). Either area, or another unsampled region, could have witnessed the admixture we document between descendants of the (already admixed) ENP group and local foragers, giving rise to the groups who then developed the PN cultural traditions of southern Kenya and northern Tanzania."

    "This study adds to our understanding of LSA genetic variation by reporting ancient DNA from additional foragers without pastoralist-related admixture, including from fisher-foragers near Lake Victoria who may have been living contemporaneously with PN herders in the broader region. These individuals fall in an intermediate position between Ethiopian and Tanzanian foragers on a genetic cline that is well correlated (among sampled ancient individuals) with geographical location (22). Broadly, however, the similarity of foragers buried in the Victoria and Eyasi Basins to individuals living on the Kenya coast and in Ethiopia and coastal Tanzania (22, 24) suggests that shared forager ancestry extended widely across the region, as also attested by present-day genetic data (20)."

    Surely you are not suggesting that the Khoe are Cushitic?

     
  20. Apollo

    Apollo Staff Member Moderator

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    I said it only represents 7-20% of their total ancestral (less than quarter, i.e. quite minor). Do you even read? See my previous statement:

    As for the Datog, they are related to the Iraqws (literally within walking distance from them) who language shifted into Nilo-Saharan (similar to the Samburu and Maasai who also replaced South Cushites) and they are autosomally mostly similar to those Cushitic Ancient Kenyans sampled by Prendergast et al. 2019 + some Nilotic + Bantu admixture.

    E-M293 is South Cushitic, proven by ancient genomics.
     
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