America is the Somalia of developed nations

[AdoonkaAlle]

He’s telling you to not support abortion because it’s against Islam but he supports this ban despite it going against Islam.

I’m starting to clock that he’s using Islam to justify his conservative opinions yet regularly accuses me of mixing Islam with leftism.

If he was genuine in his appreciation of the deen, he would’ve stated that Islam does not allow unrestricted abortion but that he’s concerned about the implications this ban would have for halal abortions.

Instead he said he supported the ban, quoted some flimsy stats and quoted some Quran.

How is it going against Islam when the vast majority of abortions don’t meet Islamic standards? I’ve stated this from the very beginning

What’s saddening is how you ignore that your support for abortion entails a lot of haram much more than what I advocate for.

As it stands the cons for abortion far outweighs any potential benefit that could be gained from supporting it. You haven’t even bought any evidence to support your case other than appeal to medical necessities which don’t even constitute 10 % of abortions. So the question remains is on what basis are you supporting abortion since the vast majority of it is haram according to deen ?

Had islam been the sole reason why you supported it you wouldn’t have gone this far when the evidence is against you sxb.

 

[Al-Ma'mun]

An Australian obsessed about the US is mad weird

 

[AMusee]

 

[AMusee]

 

[AMusee]

 

[KillStreakIsCool]

The big ol red Texas. Blacks are ‘undereducated or uneducated’ according to the evil white owned media and those white folks who pull out numbers out of their behinds.
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The stats on education is not to demean blacks but an investment by well meaning individuals to shed a light on disparity between those with opportunities and those without in communities across the US.

When you can count blacks you met at the University over many years with your fingers, and only blacks who attend come from many parts of Africa, you don't need statistics to tell you AAs don't get as much opportunity as others. Their lives were determined hundreds of years ago with each generation contending with the same foes in different disguises.

I am recent immigrant but I know I have done better than established African Americans. Big chance if I was born and raised in America, I would be in the same boat as them.

 

[KillStreakIsCool]

Abortion aside, Somalis need to stop having babies in the dozens. They need to use birth control and be responsible individuals. I sigh every time I run into a Somali lady with three to four kids each a year apart from the other on the streets,. Birth control is for people like us. Xoolo iska nool oo maqlay carruur aa la dhalaa.

 

[AdoonkaAlle]

If you 100% knew that rape victims, women with health issues wouldn't get access, being for it would be wrong tbh. Because it is literally you saying to hell with the 10% and our Sharia doesn't work that way, nor are you being compassionate as this is something that easily effect your wife or any woman in your family. Its deeply hypocritical as your stance would change in the blink of an eye.

I as a woman who have seen family members miscarry and other issuses cannot, especially if trying for a baby. So, if it is a 100% facts that some states would infringe upon this, no way am I supporting this. I'll be fearing miscarring and other issues that are common.

I'm not pro-choice (that is immoral), nor do I have the views of the Pro-life.

What I’m saying is given the choice to choose between supporting the ban given that medical exemptions & provisions are included versus being against the ban which of the 2 is the lesser evil ?

Both options aren’t the same as one carries more harm than benefit & that’s being for it. In our discussion so far you’ve presented miscarriages & another reasons why you’re against it but I’ve shown you that this is not the case.

The objections you bring are worst case scenarios that don’t reflect reality around abortion. All states allow for medical necessities & it’s only 12 that don’t make exception for rape. With regards to rape this is a good example that can further be discussed to find alternative solutions to help these women laakin we can’t have such a discussion unless people let go of their biases.

 

[KillStreakIsCool]

It is always some dude making decisions for a nonrelative female who bears the consequences of getting first raped, then carrying a bastard child who will have no father. Alternative my ass. She should immediately get an injection to kill the Haram Semen forcefully and with pain deposited into her.

 

[AdoonkaAlle]

In your first source, only 1000 women were interviewed.

In your second source, the vast majority (75 PERCENT) didn’t give a reason.

How is this credible information?

Whether the sample size is small or large what I stated doesn’t change that medical reasoning only accounts for a tiny percentage.

The term elective is used to denote that procedure isn’t done for medical purposes, majority of abortions including the ones where reasons have been given are elective abortions.

Like I said previously abortion debate was about the right for a woman to have an abortion whether they have a reason or not it’s her right & she can choose to exercise it however she wants without having the need to explain her reasons. Just the mere facts she goes in & says she wants it done is enough. So that 75% didn’t feel the need to list their reason why they wanted to kill thousands of infants perhaps they couldn’t be bothered by it or maybe felt ashamed to list it down.

However this doesn’t change that whatever their reasoning was it had nothing to do with rape, medical emergencies even economic reasons. All of which are potential reasons that diinta could accommodate so this begs the question if the Islamic reasons have been exhausted what reasons remain ? I’ll let you answer that

 

[Periplus]

How is it going against Islam when the vast majority of abortions don’t meet Islamic standards? I’ve stated this from the very beginning

You have no proof that the vast majority don’t meet Islamic standards.

The vast majority of abortions, according to your sources, are for undisclosed reasons.

 

[Taij4an]

You have no proof that the vast majority don’t meet Islamic standards.

The vast majority of abortions, according to your sources, are for undisclosed reasons.

bc they are done by kuffar who are doing abortions bc they commit zina

 

[Periplus]

bc they are done by kuffar who are doing abortions bc they commit zina

Or because of privacy.

I dont think many victims of rape or people with serious medical issues want this disclosed.

Just a thought.

 

[Taij4an]

Or because of privacy.

I dont think many victims of rape or people with serious medical issues want this disclosed.

Just a thought.

The majority of abortions are not gonna be from rape, its gonna be from irresponsible people who didnt want to have children

 

[AdoonkaAlle]

You have no proof that the vast majority don’t meet Islamic standards.

The vast majority of abortions, according to your sources, are for undisclosed reasons.

Look at the reasons given for the 1st survey and compare it to the florida one. All of the potential reasons that diinta could accommodate have been listed in both surveys such rape, medical necessities etc . While in the florida survey list it doesn't specify the reason for majority abortion, we can easily extrapolate from the first survey that breaks it down, they list reasons such as not mature enough, interference in education, done having children etc all which equally apply for florida. Those reasons explain why women would want to abort, so you most definitely can't argue it wouldn't apply in such a case.

Mind you the sample size is small and we only looked at for one state, ever think of the other states ? i don't understand why you keep on arguing when all you do is object but bring no facts to prove your case that the reasons would be considered valid from an islamic perspective

 

[TekNiKo]

Wow so Planned Parenthood was started by a racist KKK lady? I didnt know this I thought it was Hillary Clinton who started it! Wow! Just mind blowing no wonder she is racist! Lock her Up!

 

[AdoonkaAlle]

The majority of abortions are not gonna be from rape, its gonna be from irresponsible people who didnt want to have children

In the survey both rape and medical issues have already been listed, moreover abortion is not justified on the basis of traumatic experiences but on the basis of freedom. So it doesn't make sense to cite rape etc when they don't make a majority and are listed. He just wants to argue for the sake of it at this point

 

[Angelina]

Whether the sample size is small or large what I stated doesn’t change that medical reasoning only accounts for a tiny percentage.

The term elective is used to denote that procedure isn’t done for medical purposes, majority of abortions including the ones where reasons have been given are elective abortions.

Like I said previously abortion debate was about the right for a woman to have an abortion whether they have a reason or not it’s her right & she can choose to exercise it however she wants without having the need to explain her reasons. Just the mere facts she goes in & says she wants it done is enough. So that 75% didn’t feel the need to list their reason why they wanted to kill thousands of infants perhaps they couldn’t be bothered by it or maybe felt ashamed to list it down.

However this doesn’t change that whatever their reasoning was it had nothing to do with rape, medical emergencies even economic reasons. All of which are potential reasons that diinta could accommodate so this begs the question if the Islamic reasons have been exhausted what reasons remain ? I’ll let you answer that

I always thought that economic reasons are not allowed. Every child has its own barakha. And I thought that was the case for All madhabs.

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[Angelina]

What I’m saying is given the choice to choose between supporting the ban given that medical exemptions & provisions are included versus being against the ban which of the 2 is the lesser evil ?

Both options aren’t the same as one carries more harm than benefit & that’s being for it. In our discussion so far you’ve presented miscarriages & another reasons why you’re against it but I’ve shown you that this is not the case.

The objections you bring are worst case scenarios that don’t reflect reality around abortion. All states allow for medical necessities & it’s only 12 that don’t make exception for rape. With regards to rape this is a good example that can further be discussed to find alternative solutions to help these women laakin we can’t have such a discussion unless people let go of their biases.

I don't really care about the ban. As long as I know that women would get the care that they need when it comes to miscarriages and ect, i'm good to go. Kids are a blessing and there are people desperate for babies.

I was simply scared about the medical issue points as miscarriages and ectopic pregnancies can happen to anyone and hearing about it recently happening to people that I know and also being a woman makes you worry about that.

 

[AdoonkaAlle]

I always thought that economic reasons are not allowed. Every child has its own barakha. And I thought that was the case for All madhabs.

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Yh it’s true that some scholars among the hanafis made exemptions for economic reasons. I believe that scholars held different opinions with regards to exemptions some were very
while others were not. Then there’s the issue of looking at circumstances in our modern era before rulings are issued.

Tbh there’s a lot to be considered before rulings are passed down on this issue altogether. One of which is the lived experience of people in questions not everyone will have the same circumstance. A scholar may allow economic reasons for one woman but not other all based on their circumstances.

If a necessity arises then the lesser of 2 evils is chosen so as to alleviate the hardship faced by people. Diinta is just not about laws but also about people and their lives so this has to be taken into account.

In some instances abortions reminds me of the incidents where parents have to make tough decisions on which child to save during droughts where they’re starving. Wallahi it’s a hard choice to make either they risk one or allow all to starve, some leave them on the way as they’re no longer able to carry them.

Yh it’s very risky especially when drs are wrong, that’s why it’s important for those parents to look at it carefully seeking different answers from as many drs as possible etc before a final decision is made. The sorrow and trauma will not go away the moment they find out they terminated a healthy baby, even though it wasn’t their fault. I read a case where the mother simply wouldn’t let go of the fetus for hours after finding out there was no abnormalities