A map of ancient T-M184 males

[Cuneo]

Like Akkadians and Sumerians, or even before them?

I should’ve wrote Proto Mesopotamians from eastern Anatolia.

T-M70 was most likely an important lineage in Akkadians and Sumerians. Their descendants today like the Assyrians have high frequencies of T-M70.

 

[Prince Abubu]

The Bantus and Nilotes got their T-M70 from South Cushites who inhabited the Great Lakes region before these groups. T, R and J in Africa are the result of back migration.

It was a Spanish geneticist who tried to connect Y16897 to Ancient Yemen. He claimed Y16897 that Dir and Isaak belong to originated in the Aegean Sea and migrated from that area to Yemen in ancient times (he proposed 2 routes) where it was dispersed later on for unknown reasons. He claimed there was a possibility that the subclade could’ve been the genetic marker of a “lost people” like Ad & Thamud. However it’s just a theory and we do not have definite proof. @CaliTedesse, @Timo Madow and proud

He also stated that carriers of Y16897 in many cases are in a tribal confederation with carriers of R1 in places like Iraq, Kuwait and Southern Europe. Stating that there’s an unknown relation between the two.

What is your vie on this hypothesis? Without physical and anthropological evidence, surely it's completely speculative?

Lol, it would be pretty cool to be descendanto 'Ad and Thamud, though.

 

[Prince Abubu]

I should’ve wrote Proto Mesopotamians from eastern Anatolia.

T-M70 was most likely an important lineage in Akkadians and Sumerians. Their descendants today like the Assyrians have high frequencies of T-M70.

So these people are in the epicenter of where T-M184 originated?

 

[Waaqo of Punt]

The dynamic on the Somali-Afar border is also not favorable to Afar men taking Somali wives. Historically, it was Somali men taking Afar wives, and rarely the other way around. You will never see Somalis claim Afar male ancestors, but you will see Afar men who claim Somali male ancestors. Case in point, the Afar prime minister of Djibouti (Abdulqadir Kamil) and other Afar politicians who claim that their clan descends from Somalis (specifically Warsangeli).

Somalis have a sort of ethno-cultural and a very small tinge of "racial" dominance over the Afar, albiet the Afar will never tell you that. It isn't to the degree towards the Oromo. Afars were traditionally seen as a lower people then Somalis, but not as low as Oromos and Habashas were traditionally seen.

The Afar T1 more likely have Isse and Dir male ancestors. There are many Afar who belong to clans that descend from Isse men. Isse and Somali men bordering the Afar marry their women, and kill their men. The Afar kill Somali men but also assimilated many, even enemy Somali warriors, but also sailors.

Any proof that Somalis took more Afar wives rather than vice versa?

I think you're heavily downplaying Qafari social standing just because they're a relatively new tribe and not much is known about them, and u seem to throw a lot of "if" and "maybe" aroubd when talking about them. Seems biased.

There's never been any type of dominance or superiority towards the Afars either. Them being a different tribe and being in smaller numbers might make Somalis see them as lesser but history tells us different, they've never been looked down on or abused by Somalis. If anything, the Afar conflict in Djiobuti showed that Afars have no problem stepping on Somalis, they're agressive.

"The dynamic on the Somali-Afar border is also not favorable to Afar men taking Somali wives. Historically, it was Somali men taking Afar wives, and rarely the other way around. You will never see Somalis claim Afar male ancestors"
There's no proof to what you said there....they're just pure assumptions

Somalis have a sort of ethno-cultural and a very small tinge of "racial" dominance over the Afar, albiet the Afar will never tell you that. It isn't to the degree towards the Oromo. Afars were traditionally seen as a lower people then Somalis, but not as low as Oromos and Habashas were traditionally seen.

The only Oromos that were seen as inferior were the galla pagans and even those were seen as racially equivalent to the Somalis, even more beautiful at times. Soma gallas even enslaved and captured Somalis but not as much as Somalis did to them.
It's even documented that Somalis in the Ogaden gave their daughters to Oromo men for permission to use and work on the vast Oromo lands. Some Somali clans have been entirely absorbed by Oromos in the past, this is well known, and they're doing it till this day.

 

[Waaqo of Punt]

The only clearly foreign T is some Habasha T who belong to more typically Semitic T lineages that are clearly non-Cushitic and Saharan pastoral T.

Proof?

 

[Cuneo]

What is your vie on this hypothesis? Without physical and anthropological evidence, surely it's completely speculative?

Lol, it would be pretty cool to be descendanto 'Ad and Thamud, though.

It sounds plausible since the Aegean Sea is the focal point for Y16897 and migration from that area would explain its presence in the northern parts of the Somali Peninsula.

The latter part with Ad and Thamud is just a theory he connected to the unexplained dispersal of the subclade and the unexplained tribal alliance with carriers of R1 in southern Europe and Middle East. I think he meant that Y16897 regrouped after their initial dispersal and allied themselves with or joined people they already had contact with during this alleged civilization.

 

[Cuneo]

So these people are in the epicenter of where T-M184 originated?

Yes, pretty much.

Eastern Anatolia, Northern Iraq, South Caucaus and Iran.

 

[Waaqo of Punt]

The earliest Habasha and Horn African slave-soldiers were the ones apart of Abreha's expedition, and served as the troops of the Persian conquerors of Yemen and southern Arabia 1500 years ago.

what do you mean slave soldiers? Habesha? The Axumites sent their own Tigrayana, Beja, etc. There were also some Nilotes from the Axumite conquest of Kush. Yemeni oral tradition sates that the Akhdam were the offsprings of these Nilotes who stayed in Yemen, but this was rebuked by a scholar in San'aa, Yemen, make it what you will of it. Also, Axum defeated the Persians several times but later aided them in the future, Axumite archers have been recorded in Persian armies.

Some Ethiopian slave soldiers served as custodians and guardsmen in Mecca and Madinah. Others were advisers or overseers. Others were ship builders. But the prime market for Oromo males in Arabia was as slave soldiers. When they gained their freedom, Oromo and other Ethiopian males married low caste Arab women. Some even married and took over the estates and wives of their Arab sheikhs, inheriting their businesses and the sheikhs wives.

I'm assuming you're talking about gallas/Oromo pagans, Nilotes, Bantus, and captured Muslims from the lowlands cus Habeshas were rarely sold to Arabs, the highlands even prohibited the enslaving of Christians even though it occurred a few times.

Habasha and Oromo and other Cushitic slave soldiers were very common in Arabia for at least 1000 years. Some even became very famous military leaders or formed dynasties, such as Malik Ambar, who took control of the Ahmadnagar Sultanate, or the Habasha slave dynasty of Yemen, the Najahid dynasty.

Again, insignificant amount of habesha soldiers. The Najahid dynasty was most definitely not a dynasty from the Ethiopian highlands but from lowlanders of Ethiopia, pagan or Muslim. There are no sources saying that the Najahid dynasty is Amahara/Tigray or something like that. Also, Arabs at the time used the term 'habesha' and 'Ethiopian' interchangeably and didn't differentiate between a Cushite or Nilote/Bantu a lot of the times. Somalis were also enslaved by Ethiopians from invasions and sold by the highlanders, albeit strong denial from a lot of Somalis the evidence is there.

Your little here you made is inferior than that of the Spaniard or other theories circulating around. As the evidence suggests, paternal Arab DNA is among Somalis, wether we like it or not.

 

[Waaqo of Punt]

Thank you. You've succinctly described my issues with the whole "T1 is Yemeni/Arab/Semitic" bullcrap. If T-M70 in Somalis is Arab, than the same applies to all the T-M70 carriers across the whole of East Africa, including hunter-gatherers and Nilotic pastoralists.

No he hasn't his is purely speculation, trying to go against genetic evidence of paternal Arab DNA in Somalis.

 

[Prince Abubu]

No he hasn't his is purely speculation, trying to go against genetic evidence of paternal Arab DNA in Somalis.

His speculation still makes more sense than the Arab-daddy crap. Full ethnic Somalis have zero genetic input from Arabs.

 

[Prince Abubu]

For anyone interested -

None of these samples share anything with Somalis up to 15-9,000 years. None of them are Y16879.

I don't see T1 as a Natufian lineage, since none of the Natufians had it. It is most likely eastern Anatolian/Armenian plateau related. T only shows up in the Levant during the PPN and PPNB with a large amount of Anatolian-like northern West Asian admixture. In Europe, it also came with Anatolian and more northern West Asian admixture. The Peq'in cave samples were also very heavily Anatolian.

PPNB Levantines had 25% admixture from Anatolian hunter gatherers.

The earliest African T1 was the Morrocan Neolithic European Neolithic admixed KEB sample.

So it isn't Levantine in origin. I think it was from hunter gatherers around the Armenian plateau and the eastern Taurus range, i.e the general south Caucasus region.

Is there anything definitive that can be said about this population? Did they have a language, culture, ethnicity?

 

[Prince Abubu]

For anyone interested -

None of these samples share anything with Somalis up to 15-9,000 years. None of them are Y16879.

I don't see T1 as a Natufian lineage, since none of the Natufians had it. It is most likely eastern Anatolian/Armenian plateau related. T only shows up in the Levant during the PPN and PPNB with a large amount of Anatolian-like northern West Asian admixture. In Europe, it also came with Anatolian and more northern West Asian admixture. The Peq'in cave samples were also very heavily Anatolian.

PPNB Levantines had 25% admixture from Anatolian hunter gatherers.

The earliest African T1 was the Morrocan Neolithic European Neolithic admixed KEB sample.

So it isn't Levantine in origin. I think it was from hunter gatherers around the Armenian plateau and the eastern Taurus range, i.e the general south Caucasus region.

How come there's no Anatolian HG ancestry in T-carrier Somalis then?

 

[Asrafael]

How come there's no Anatolian HG ancestry in T-carrier Somalis then?

Why would someone ydna carrier have any detectable ancestry from a single ancestor that existed thousands of years ago to the exclusion of his own ethnic group who do not carry that ydna?

If it had an autosomal signature - it is with all Somalis. Otherwise you would expect E-V13 Greeks to show Somali-like ancestry that their R-M417 Greek cousins don’t have - which is ridiculous.

No one knows much about our west Eurasian ancestry expect that a lot of it is pre-Neolithic. Maybe all of it is. No one knows whether we have any Natufian, PPN, or Anatolian HG ancestry. But since we lack Natufian ydna (E-Z830*), and I don’t expect we have any significant ancestry from Natufians.

R1b-V88 and T-L208 will probably have the same story in Africa - a small group of west Eurasian HGs shift to cattle herding and migrate into Africa somewhere before 4,000 years and after 7,000 years. Their autosomal impact is unknown, and we probably only inherited their ydna due to a huge sex bias and founder effect these groups has due to their Neolithic pastoral lifestyle.

 

[Prince Abubu]

Why would someone ydna carrier have any detectable ancestry from a single ancestor that existed thousands of years ago to the exclusion of his own ethnic group who do not carry that ydna?

If it had an autosomal signature - it is with all Somalis. Otherwise you would expect E-V13 Greeks to show Somali-like ancestry that their R-M417 Greek cousins don’t have - which is ridiculous.

No one knows much about our west Eurasian ancestry expect that a lot of it is pre-Neolithic. Maybe all of it is. No one knows whether we have any Natufian, PPN, or Anatolian HG ancestry. But since we lack Natufian ydna (E-Z830*), and I don’t expect we have any significant ancestry from Natufians.

R1b-V88 and T-L208 will probably have the same story in Africa - a small group of west Eurasian HGs shift to cattle herding and migrate into Africa somewhere before 4,000 years and after 7,000 years. Their autosomal impact is unknown, and we probably only inherited their ydna due to a huge sex bias and founder effect these groups has due to their Neolithic pastoral lifestyle.

So R-V88 and T-L208 entered Africa from Anatolia/Levant between 7000-4000 ybp? That's a huge gap in time. Literally, the difference between hunter-gatherers and early agricultural civilization.

Btw, are you a T-Y44591 carrier as well?

 

[Asrafael]

So R-V88 and T-L208 entered Africa from Anatolia/Levant between 7000-4000 ybp? That's a huge gap in time. Literally, the difference between hunter-gatherers and early agricultural civilization.

Btw, are you a T-Y44591 carrier as well?

No - my uncles are through.

Those are very liberal estimates. I don’t think it arrived that late - it’s because of the young mrca of Chadic R1b-V88 men.

I think Y44491 arrived before the evacuation of the Sahara but after the Neolithization of NE Africa.