A map of ancient T-M184 males

Discussion in 'Anthropology & Genetics' started by Asrafael, Oct 4, 2019.

  1. Asrafael

    Asrafael

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  2. Cuneo

    Cuneo

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    Very peculiar haplogroup.
     
  3. fox

    fox FreeWiFi > FreePalestine VIP

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    They were the Jews that were exiled by the neo-babylonian empire.
     
  4. Asrafael

    Asrafael

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    For anyone interested -

    None of these samples share anything with Somalis up to 15-9,000 years. None of them are Y16879.

    I don't see T1 as a Natufian lineage, since none of the Natufians had it. It is most likely eastern Anatolian/Armenian plateau related. T only shows up in the Levant during the PPN and PPNB with a large amount of Anatolian-like northern West Asian admixture. In Europe, it also came with Anatolian and more northern West Asian admixture. The Peq'in cave samples were also very heavily Anatolian.

    PPNB Levantines had 25% admixture from Anatolian hunter gatherers.

    The earliest African T1 was the Morrocan Neolithic European Neolithic admixed KEB sample.

    So it isn't Levantine in origin. I think it was from hunter gatherers around the Armenian plateau and the eastern Taurus range, i.e the general south Caucasus region.
     
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  5. CaliTedesse

    CaliTedesse صومال ابن كوش

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  6. Apollo

    Apollo Staff Member Moderator

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    @Asrafael

    What do you think of this theory:

    Could Northwest Somalis have gotten their T from Djibouti Afars? Instead of Djiboutian Afars being Somali admixed, could they be the source for the T in the Northwest Somali region?
     
  7. Asrafael

    Asrafael

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    I believe it is almost impossible - because all Sam populations have E-V32 and T1 at significant frequencies, which makes me believe this T1 stuff is a pan-Sam phenomenon than something isolated to ethnic Somalis alone.

    I am convinced if we test Garre (not the best), Gabbaro, and Sakuye T1 males, they will be closely related to Somali T1, and have a pan-Sam T1 tmrca around 3-4,000 years ago.

    The Afar also came very late (Middle Ages) into Djibouti. And they have too much Habesha ancestry and J1 and E-V6 as well. We will also have to explain non-Dir/Isaaq Somali T1, like that lone Hawiye identified T1 sample from the Djibouti study, who was too close to the Dir/Isaaq T1 but yet removed enough that it cannot be explained by the introgression of Afar males into Somali communities.

    The dynamic on the Somali-Afar border is also not favorable to Afar men taking Somali wives. Historically, it was Somali men taking Afar wives, and rarely the other way around. You will never see Somalis claim Afar male ancestors, but you will see Afar men who claim Somali male ancestors. Case in point, the Afar prime minister of Djibouti (Abdulqadir Kamil) and other Afar politicians who claim that their clan descends from Somalis (specifically Warsangeli).

    Somalis have a sort of ethno-cultural and a very small tinge of "racial" dominance over the Afar, albiet the Afar will never tell you that. It isn't to the degree towards the Oromo. Afars were traditionally seen as a lower people then Somalis, but not as low as Oromos and Habashas were traditionally seen.

    The Afar T1 more likely have Isse and Dir male ancestors. There are many Afar who belong to clans that descend from Isse men. Isse and Somali men bordering the Afar marry their women, and kill their men. The Afar kill Somali men but also assimilated many, even enemy Somali warriors, but also sailors.

    Unlikely. T1 is rare in Yemen, and most Arabian T1 are T-CTS11451, like the Chalcolithic Peq'in cave samples. There are some T-16897, but they are scattered throughout Arabia. But it looks like they are also concentrated in areas were tribal Arabs have E-V32.

    The closest Yemeni T1 I ever saw was a low-caste non-Arab African-admixed Hadhraami who belonged to a group called the Hijri (they are similar to the Akhdam), who was T-Y18956, and was also T-16897 like Somalis. But Somalis are T-Y45591, not T-Z19971 like this slave descended low-caste non-Arab Yemeni.

    Also, some very isolated Bantus and south Cushitic groups have significant or have had T1 detected in them.

    The only clearly foreign T is some Habasha T who belong to more typically Semitic T lineages that are clearly non-Cushitic and Saharan pastoral T.

    @CaliTedesse, you have to explain how Bantus from Tanzania and Toubous and Somalis all somehow descend from Toubous, and how most Yemeni and Arab T1 isn't even Y16897.

    If you're trolling, it's better you don't contribute.

    My idea now is that T-Y16897 is a result of introgression from hunter gatherer turned cattle herders from somewhere in the Armenian plateau-Pontic Alps-Taurus mountians who migrated into Northeast Africa between 10-6,000 years ago. Not Sabeans, not Arabs, and not Jews.
     
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  8. Cuneo

    Cuneo

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    I think @CaliTedesse is alluding to a theory by a Spanish geneticist that T-Y16897 originally came from the Aegean Sea to Yemen and in ancient times there was a dispersal out of Yemen that would explain T-Y16897 being scattered in the Arabian Peninsula, but also being found mainly in the part of the Somali Peninsula adjacent to Yemen and Iraq/Kuwait which borders Saudi Arabia.

    How do you explain the fact that the closest relatives of T-Y16897 carrying Somalis (mainly Dir and Isaaq) being the Banu Malik tribesmen in Kuwait and Iraq who are also T-Y16897?

    @Timo Jareer and proud
     
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  9. Asrafael

    Asrafael

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    I know that guy. He's absolutely delusional about destroying any connection between Africa and T1. And he isn't the only one. His agenda is to make Somali and African T1 the result of Arab introgression. Instead of following the whisperings of a racist Spanish T1 guy, why don't you come to your own conclusions?

    Where is there to begin? do you not see all these tribal Arabs with E-V32? A3b2? do you know that alot of these tribal Arabs are from eastern Arabia, nearby the Bani Malik? That they are of prestigious Arab Bedouin stock? Do you think their A3b2 and E-V32 is some indigenous development and not the result of Cushitic and other African men mating with Arab women?

    The Bani Malik are from Bahran? coincidentally the area were so many Dossari
    tribesmen have E-V32. These tribes live in Iraq and Bahrain. We even have Bani Sakhr. I don't know what to make of Arab and Jewish T-Y16897, but some Arab T-Y16897 is definitely Cushitic or Ethiosemitic in origin. Why do you jump to a Arab connection when we know that T1 is present in Cushitic and Cushitic admixed populations, and we only have Somali T1 resolved. I know you are not ignorant of the fact that Arabs are very over-represented in yfull. There are more Arab E-V32 than Somali and Ethiopian E-V32. Ethiopian branches of A3b2 are dominated by Arabs. I don't get how one can even come to your conclusion by following simple logic.

    Let me give you an explanation that is far more sensible than you being an Arab.

    Cushitic men and boys were sold to Arab sheikhs and businessmen in eastern Arabia since in the thousands and for hundreds of years. They were specifically targeted in the slave trade because they were perceived as having the ideal qualities of military men, the combination of masculine vigor and intelligence. Because of this, they formed the military backbone of many Arabian shiekhdoms in eastern Arabia and Nejd, and historically in many states in Yemen. The earliest Habasha and Horn African slave-soldiers were the ones apart of Abreha's expedition, and served as the troops of the Persian conquerors of Yemen and southern Arabia 1500 years ago.

    Some Ethiopian slave soldiers served as custodians and guardsmen in Mecca and Madinah. Others were advisers or overseers. Others were ship builders. But the prime market for Oromo males in Arabia was as slave soldiers. When they gained their freedom, Oromo and other Ethiopian males married low caste Arab women. Some even married and took over the estates and wives of their Arab sheikhs, inheriting their businesses and the sheikhs wives.

    500,000 to 1 million Ethiopian slaves were sold to Arabia from 1800-1930. True, alot of Oromo and other Ethiopian slaves were castrated and most eunuchs and guardsmen were from Ethiopia, but many if not most were not. Habasha and Oromo and other Cushitic slave soldiers were very common in Arabia for at least 1000 years. Some even became very famous military leaders or formed dynasties, such as Malik Ambar, who took control of the Ahmadnagar Sultanate, or the Habasha slave dynasty of Yemen, the Najahid dynasty.

    Look how easy and plausible my explanation is. In your round, how do you even begin to explain Sandawe hunter gatherers getting their T1 from tribal Arabs? How is it possible Akie rift valley hunter gatherers or those Bantus in central Tanzania got their T1 from Arabs? How can you disassociate Somali T1 from Tanzanian T1 when so far, all indications are that they share the same T1 as Somalis (at high levels however). They aren't carrying something that looks different from Somali T1, like the Lemba or some Habasha.

    Anyone who isn't so desperate to have some Arab guys sperm neck deep will not play so ignorant that they fail to see the most obvious.

    Somali T1 is not Middle Eastern to date. Instead of listening to Andres, our priority is to get a yfull for Habasha, and Tanzanian and any Bantu and Nilo-Saharan T1, and see if they are also Y16897.

    Sorry if anyones offended. I'm just very annoyed at this whole way of thinking. It's one thing to argue where Cushitic and African T1 is from, but another to argue Somali T1 is Arab.
     
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  10. Cuneo

    Cuneo

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    I do not agree with the Spaniards theory but it sounds more plausible than what you posted.

    Obviously T1a reached Africa through ancient back migration and Sandawe, Bantus got their T1a from South Cushites.

    There’s a slight possibility that South Cushites carried Y16897. However I do not think so and statistically all T1a carriers tested this far in Africa belong to different subclades wether they’re fellow Cushites such as Saho, Oromo or other groups such as the Toubou, Fulani etc.

    Only Djiboutian Afar, who neighbor Dir, carry the Y16897 subclade and it’s not hard to figure out how that came about.

    On the other hand you have Arabs and Jews who are Y16897 and some populations in the Aegean Sea according to the Spaniard.
     
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  11. Prince Abubu

    Prince Abubu

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    Thank you. You've succinctly described my issues with the whole "T1 is Yemeni/Arab/Semitic" bullcrap. If T-M70 in Somalis is Arab, than the same applies to all the T-M70 carriers across the whole of East Africa, including hunter-gatherers and Nilotic pastoralists.
     
  12. Prince Abubu

    Prince Abubu

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    @Asrafael what is your theory on the origin of T1a in Somalis? Particularly, it's T-Y16897 variant?
     
  13. Apollo

    Apollo Staff Member Moderator

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    He's proposing an ancient Northeast African origin for it, the one in Somalis. Most likely that they traveled along with the ~6,000 YBP proto-Cushites rather than coming from the Arabian peninsula more recently. Before all of this he does recognize it is ultimately Middle Eastern, but that was thousands upon thousands of years ago.
     
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  14. Prince Abubu

    Prince Abubu

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    Yeah, that's the most realistic and common sense theory. The T-carriers and the E-carriers arrived roughly at the same time, if they weren't part of the same migration anyway, into the Horn from the Red sea coast of Egypt/Sudan/Eritrea.

    But I was asking about the period before that. He said Natufians weren't t-haplo carriers. Who were the middle-eastern ancestors of T-carrying Somalis then? ? Ancient Anatolians/Armenians/Iranians?
     
  15. CaliTedesse

    CaliTedesse صومال ابن كوش

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    I agree with the Spaniard
     
  16. Cuneo

    Cuneo

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    The subclades is not Arab.

    It’s only a theory that it was dispersed out of Yemen but we do not have definite proof.

    Y16897 is found in European Jews, Italians, Cretans etc. No one is making the argument that they’re Arab so I don’t understand why Somalis have to make that argument.
     
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  17. Cuneo

    Cuneo

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    Most likely Mesopotamians and their fore-bearers who came from Anatolia before migrating along the Euphrates and Tigris.
     
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  18. Prince Abubu

    Prince Abubu

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    There are a number of people here trying to link Somalis with ancient Yemen/Arabia/south Semitic. I'm saying if you wish to do that, you have to explain why Bantus/Niloties and other Cushites have T-M70 as well.
     
  19. Prince Abubu

    Prince Abubu

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    Like Akkadians and Sumerians, or even before them?
     
  20. Cuneo

    Cuneo

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    The Bantus and Nilotes got their T-M70 from South Cushites who inhabited the Great Lakes region before these groups. T, R and J in Africa are the result of back migration.

    It was a Spanish geneticist who tried to connect Y16897 to Ancient Yemen. He claimed Y16897 that Dir and Isaak belong to originated in the Aegean Sea and migrated from that area to Yemen in ancient times (he proposed 2 routes) where it was dispersed later on for unknown reasons. He claimed there was a possibility that the subclade could’ve been the genetic marker of a “lost people” like Ad & Thamud. However it’s just a theory and we do not have definite proof. @CaliTedesse, @Timo Jareer and proud

    He also stated that carriers of Y16897 in many cases are in a tribal confederation with carriers of R1 in places like Iraq, Kuwait and Southern Europe. Stating that there’s an unknown relation between the two.
     
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