Gay and lesbian Somalis

[Periplus]

Islam also prohibits, adultery, zina, drinking alcohol, etc are you going to claim that this also comes under "forcing our religious beliefs" on others ? Being able to practice to islam in a secular nation doesn't mean or entail that you support that which is prohibited in islam.

Yes, those things are haram but I am not going to stop people from doing those things in a Western country. That is my underlying point.

I support their right to drink, do zina in their own country. I will not do those things and will not want my family to do it.

The same goes for LGBT, I support their right to do it in a secular country which supposed to provide rights for everybody. However, I am not going to partake or support or not support them.

 

[Periplus]

@AdoonkaAlle

I have a question:

Are Muslim leaders who allow non-Muslims to drink alcohol in their country (ex: Syria, Iraq) murtads?

 

[Muzaffer]

Yes, those things are haram but I am not going to stop people from doing those things in a Western country. That is my underlying point.

I support their right to drink, do zina in their own country. I will not do those things and will not want my family to do it.

The same goes for LGBT, I support their right to do it in a secular country which supposed to provide rights for everybody. However, I am not going to partake or support or not support them.

Will its not you job to stop them in there countries in first place.

But it's our job to stop them in Muslim countries.

 

[Periplus]

Will its not you job to stop them in there countries in first place.

But it's our job to stop them in Muslim countries.

I never disagreed with that.

That is my entire point.

 

[Muzaffer]

@AdoonkaAlle

I have a question:

Are Muslim leaders who allow non-Muslims to drink alcohol in their country (ex: Syria, Iraq) murtads?

Non muslim can drink alcohol in their communities and sell it to non Muslim but they can gift it or sell it to muslims or they will get punished

 

[Periplus]

Non muslim can drink alcohol in their communities and sell it to non Muslim but they can gift it or sell it to muslims or they will get punished

My opinion is simply: I support LGBT getting their rights in a secular Western country.

That is the end. I have never said anything else.

As for their actual community in the West, I am not part of it, none of my family are part of it so it does not concern me.

I think SSpot gives this too much attention then its worth.

 

[Muzaffer]

My opinion is simply: I support LGBT getting their rights in a secular Western country.

That is the end. I have never said anything else.

As for their actual community in the West, I am not part of it, none of my family are part of it so it does not concern me.

I think SSpot gives this too much attention then its worth.

I'm surprised there is alot of LGBT threads here and at same time most of us are muslims and see it as haram so what is point of making it.

 

[AdoonkaAlle]

I said I support their rights in secular countries, I have said that in numerous threads.

In that thread, we were talking about Pride Month celebrated in Western countries so there was no need for me to add the addendum, but I can find numerous quotes from myself adding the addendum.

In that quote, you attached I say I am happy they are getting their rights from a secular government.


I was using the Islamic example because I do not intend of forcing my beliefs on someone in a country foreign to me.

I have never stated that I find it halal or haram or that I would support/not support it in a Muslim country.

Nice try tho.

You're contradicting yourself in an attempt to differentiate your advocacy for what is prohibited. It's of no relevance where a particular prohibited action takes place your obligation as a muslim is to follow the commands of Allah, whatever He made haram remains haram irrespective of location and time.

Allah never stated that zina, drinking alcohol, homosexuality is only haram when we're in muslim countries etc the prohibition of these things are absolute prohibitions any where or any time they occur.

Being in a non muslim doesn't negate the obligation of Allah's commandments regarding these matters. It makes no difference if they occur in non-muslim countries or not just like the same way rape, murder etc are haram.

Stating what islam requires of you to say when it comes to lgbt, zina etc isn't enforcing your beliefs on non muslims in these countries. The fact that you're even trying to use this as some sort of evidence to justify your stance of supporting what Allah made haram is even more problematic

According to your view zina, homosexuality is permissible as long as one doesn't live in a muslim country where it's forbidden ? In turkey homosexuality is legal so judging by your logic you would support it as well ?

You're without a doubt legitimizing the permissibility to engage in what Allah made haram when you chose to support it. In other words it ok for anyone, including a muslim to engage in zina, homosexuality etc whilst they're living in non-muslim countries.

 

[AdoonkaAlle]

Yes, those things are haram but I am not going to stop people from doing those things in a Western country. That is my underlying point.

I support their right to drink, do zina in their own country. I will not do those things and will not want my family to do it.

The same goes for LGBT, I support their right to do it in a secular country which supposed to provide rights for everybody. However, I am not going to partake or support or not support them.

No one is expecting you to stop them, we're talking about the legality of these acts according to islam. If something is haram you don't go out of your way to support it's legalization or those who engage in it.

Advocating and supporting haram is also haram, where are you getting this idea that this is somehow permissible in islam ?

Living in a non-muslim country doesn't absolve you from what you're required to believe and abide by in islam.

 

[Periplus]

You're contradicting yourself in an attempt to differentiate your advocacy for what is prohibited. It's of no relevance where a particular prohibited action takes place your obligation as a muslim is to follow the commands of Allah, whatever He made haram remains haram irrespective of location and time.

I have never advocated their actions. I have only supported their rights in Western countries.

I follow the commands of Allah: I do not drink, commit Zina, eat pork, I pray, I fast etc.

My opinions are about people who are not my family and not myself. What they do in their own countries is of no concern to me.

Allah never stated that zina, drinking alcohol, homosexuality is only haram when we're in muslim countries etc the prohibition of these things are absolute prohibitions any where or any time they occur.

Being in a non muslim doesn't negate the obligation of Allah's commandments regarding these matters. It makes no difference if they occur in non-muslim countries or not just like the same way rape, murder etc are haram.

I abstain from haram in any country, regardless of whether its muslim or non-muslim.

That is different from imposing my beliefs of what is haram and not haram on people in non-muslim countries.

If my sister or mother or brother was committing haram, I would tell them to abstain but strangers in a non-muslim country does not concern me. As far as I am concerned, they can do what they want.

Stating what islam requires of you to say when it comes to lgbt, zina etc isn't enforcing your beliefs on non muslims in these countries. The fact that you're even trying to use this as some sort of evidence to justify your stance of supporting what Allah made haram is even more problematic

According to your view zina, homosexuality is permissible as long as one doesn't live in a muslim country where it's forbidden ? In turkey homosexuality is legal so judging by your logic you would support it as well ?

You're without a doubt legitimizing the permissibility to engage in what Allah made haram when you chose to support it. In other words it ok for anyone, including a muslim to engage in zina, homosexuality etc whilst they're living in non-muslim countries.

I never said it was permissable in a Western country. I never said that their actions is right.

Now read the next sentence, carefully:

I said that secular countries do not use religion to influence legislation, that is why LGBT people should get their rights from secular governments.

If secular countries allowed murderers to walk freely, I would say murderers should not be arrested in a Western country. It does mean I think murder is right or I support murder. It means I think that the government by choosing a secular system created this problem for themselves and have to pay the consequences.

If the USA was not a secular country but a Christian country, I would most likely have a different opinion.

 

[AdoonkaAlle]

@AdoonkaAlle

I have a question:

Are Muslim leaders who allow non-Muslims to drink alcohol in their country (ex: Syria, Iraq) murtads?

The countries in your example have non-muslims who're native to these countries and ever since islam spread to these countries non-muslims have always had the right to practice their religion and culture, since drinking alcohol was the norm they were allowed to do so but there were certain restrictions placed on them.

No one becomes a murtad simply by engaging in sins by themselves. One leaves the religions if he/she believes what they're doing is right and what Allah commanded is wrong this is kufr. So depending on the circumstance and reasoning behind such actions then islamically speaking such actions can lead to one leaving islam

 

[Periplus]

No one is expecting you to stop them, we're talking about the legality of these acts according to islam. If something is haram you don't go out of your way to support it's legalization or those who engage in it.

Advocating and supporting haram is also haram, where are you getting this idea that this is somehow permissible in islam ?

Living in a non-muslim country doesn't absolve you from what you're required to believe and abide by in islam.

I abide by the teachings of Islam in my personal life and I believe in the letter of the Quran and Sunnah. I will do that in Somalia, Saudi Arabia, USA or Australia.

However, I am not going to force my opinion on non-muslims and strangers in a non-muslim country. I think secular governments have created this problem and are obligated to give these people their rights, that does not mean I agree/disagree with that.

 

[Periplus]

The countries in your example have non-muslims who're native to these countries and ever since islam spread to these countries non-muslims have always had the right to practice their religion and culture, since drinking alcohol was the norm they were allowed to do so but there were certain restrictions placed on them.

No one becomes a murtad simply by engaging in sins by themselves. One leaves the religions if he/she believes what they're doing is right and what Allah commanded is wrong this is kufr. So depending on the circumstance and reasoning behind such actions then islamically speaking such actions can lead to one leaving islam

And my opinion is that non-muslims in their countries should be able to practice their beliefs, whatever it may be.

I support their right to practice what they want in a nation that represents them.

 

[AdoonkaAlle]

I have never advocated their actions. I have only supported their rights in Western countries.

I follow the commands of Allah: I do not drink, commit Zina, eat pork, I pray, I fast etc.

My opinions are about people who are not my family and not myself. What they do in their own countries is of no concern to me.

Supporting gay rights means you're endorsing and legitimizing homosexual acts and against any form of law banning either their right to engage in these acts, or stops them from promoting and advocating for their lifestyle.

Following the commands of Allah doesn't entail support and advocacy of what He forbade. You won't do all those actions but will support people to do them ? Since they're of no concern why in the world would you support them knowing full well what they're doing is haram according to islam ?

I abstain from haram in any country, regardless of whether its muslim or non-muslim.

That is different from imposing my beliefs of what is haram and not haram on people in non-muslim countries.

If my sister or mother or brother was committing haram, I would tell them to abstain but strangers in a non-muslim country does not concern me. As far as I am concerned, they can do what they want.

The issue wasn't about you engaging with these actions but you supporting not only the action but those who engage in these actions?. Islam says is haram to engage in zina, homosexuality, drink alcohol how in the world does this constitute you imposing your islamic belief on non a muslim ? Unless you want to state that merely stating what islam says about those actions equates to forcing a non muslim to accept i fail to see otherwise

Strangers don't concern you yet here you're supporting them to commit haram actions ? why are these strangers entitled to your support and advocacy ?

I never said it was permissable in a Western country. I never said that their actions is right.

Now read the next sentence, carefully:

I said that secular countries do not use religion to influence legislation, that is why LGBT people should get their rights from secular governments.

If secular countries allowed murderers to walk freely, I would say murderers should not be arrested in a Western country. It does mean I think murder is right or I support murder. It means I think that the government by choosing a secular system created this problem for themselves and have to pay the consequences.

If the USA was not a secular country but a Christian country, I would most likely have a different opinion.

By supporting people to have the right engage in homosexuality you're by default and logical speaking legalising their actions. There's no way around this, which is why i stated earlier you're contradicting yourself when you are against the same actions in a muslim country. If you believe it's wrong to support it in a muslim country because it goes against islam why would you support it a non-muslim country ?

Whether secular countries advocate and legalise homosexuality doesn't change the islamic stance on it and what you're required to believe and abide by as a muslim. Allah made it haram, His legislation is Absolute and Supreme, no law can be equated nor elevated to His law and none has the right to either allow or prohibit what Allah made haram or halal.

Look at what Allah says about the jew & christians in obeying their monks & rabbis in allowing what Allah prohibited and prohibiting what Allah allowed

They have taken their scholars and monks as lords besides Allah, and [also] the Messiah, the son of Mary. And they were not commanded except to worship one God; there is no deity except Him. Exalted is He above whatever they associate with Him. (9:31)

Read what ibn kathir says in his tafsir : http://m.qtafsir.com/Surah-At-Taubah/Fighting-the-Jews-and-Christia---

They took their rabbis and their monks to be their lords besides Allah, and the Messiah, son of Maryam) (9:31). Imam Ahmad, At-Tirmidhi and Ibn Jarir At-Tabari recorded a Hadith via several chains of narration, from `Adi bin Hatim, may Allah be pleased with him, who became Christian during the time of Jahiliyyah.

When the call of the Messenger of Allah reached his area, `Adi ran away to Ash-Sham, and his sister and several of his people were captured. The Messenger of Allah freed his sister and gave her gifts. So she went to her brother and encouraged him to become Muslim and to go to the Messenger of Allah . `Adi, who was one of the chiefs of his people (the tribe of Tai') and whose father, Hatim At-Ta'i, was known for his generosity, went to Al-Madinah. When the people announced his arrival, `Adi went to the Messenger of Allah wearing a silver cross around his neck. The Messenger of Allah recited this Ayah;

(They took their rabbis and their monks to be their lords besides Allah). `Adi commented, "I said, `They did not worship them.''' The Prophet said,

Yes they did. They (rabbis and monks) prohibited the allowed for them (Christians and Jews) and allowed the prohibited, and they obeyed them. This is how they worshipped them.)

If you're supporting a murderer not to be arrested you're by default legalising murder as you believe that what the murderer did doesn't constitute a crime otherwise there's no way you would support him/her not to be arrested.

Suppose secular countries allowed rapists to walk freely, you support it and believe they shouldn't be arrested, doesn't your action to support the rapist to walk free not legitimize rape. I mean in your eyes what the rapist did was actually fine otherwise you wouldn't support him at all.

The basis of your support in both scenarios is rooted in your moral worldview that you judge everything by and use it as the yard stick to support or oppose any given issue. No one supports or opposes anything for no reason there's always an underlying justification dictating their actions

 

[AdoonkaAlle]

I abide by the teachings of Islam in my personal life and I believe in the letter of the Quran and Sunnah. I will do that in Somalia, Saudi Arabia, USA or Australia.

However, I am not going to force my opinion on non-muslims and strangers in a non-muslim country. I think secular governments have created this problem and are obligated to give these people their rights, that does not mean I agree/disagree with that.

Why do you continue to equate what islam requires you to believe in and support to forcing your opinions on non muslims ? if islam requires to abstain from zina how does this equate to you forcing your belief of abstaining from zina on a gaal ?

A gaal asks you what does islam say about zina, drinking alcohol etc and you answer what islam says can you please explaining to me how this is forcing islam on them ?

 

[Periplus]

Suppose secular countries allowed rapists to walk freely, you support it and believe they shouldn't be arrested, doesn't your action to support the rapist to walk free not legitimize rape. I mean in your eyes what the rapist did was actually fine otherwise you wouldn't support him at all.

This is the only part of your statement that somewhat addresses my point.

If this was the case, I would support their right not to be arrested because thats the fault of the secular government for legitimising it. If the law says they are not to be arrested then its their fault if these people are not arrested. You cannot blame someone for taking advantage of the weaknesses in a law but rather the government for creating such weaknesses in the first place.

I do not support rape, I condemn rape but if a government legalises it, everything that comes after it is their fault and they should give them the rights they gave them. If they do not agree with that then they shouldn't have done what they did.

 

[Periplus]

Why do you continue to equate what islam requires you to believe in and support to forcing your opinions on non muslims ? if islam requires to abstain from zina how does this equate to you forcing your belief of abstaining from zina on a gaal ?

A gaal asks you what does islam say about zina, drinking alcohol etc and you answer what islam says can you please explaining to me how this is forcing islam on them ?

If someone asked me what Islam says about homosexuality, zina, alcohol or even zakat, I will tell them what Allah has made halal and what he has made haram.

However, I am not going to tell people what to do or give them my opinions on their actions. I am not going to say they deserve to die or are going to hell-fire or be crude. I will leave it simply by what is said in Islam.

My opinion on governance however, is that if a secular government wants to exist they need to give rights to everybody. By rights, I mean the protection from discrimination. A secular government should give everyone the right to be free.

That does not mean I support/don't support secularism, that is merely my opinion on what they should do.

 

[AdoonkaAlle]

And my opinion is that non-muslims in their countries should be able to practice their beliefs, whatever it may be.

I support their right to practice what they want in a nation that represents them.

No do you or any muslim have the ability nor power to stop non-muslims from engaging in their desires in their own countries we're nothing but a minority if anything it's them who do continually pressure and force muslims to adopt their beliefs. Why this doesn't seem to bother your is rather strange

As muslims we can't support any law be it legislated by a muslim in a muslim country or a non muslim in their country that goes against what Allah commanded.

It baffles to me why in the world are you going out of your own way to support gay rights when you acknowledge that homosexuality is haram. What makes you belief that advocating and supporting haram is permissible in islam ? i mean no one is forcing you at gun point to say these things, at least you would've had a valid excuse but at it stands you've no ground to stand on at all

 

[Periplus]

It baffles to me why in the world are you going out of your own way to support gay rights when you acknowledge that homosexuality is haram. What makes you belief that advocating and supporting haram is permissible in islam ? i mean no one is forcing you at gun point to say these things, at least you would've had a valid excuse but at it stands you've no ground to stand on at all

I do not advocate or support nor do I discriminate or hate.

My opinion is that a secular government should not discriminate against LGBT people.

You are making roundabout arguments but this is the key issue here. Tell me why I am wrong in thinking a secular government should not discriminate against LGBT people.

If you want to have a religious argument, I would suggest going on this thread:

If allah is all knowing

Why did he let Adam and Eve eat the forbidden fruit and how did shaytan sneak into paradise Why did he keep sending messengers down to correct his messages. He’s god shouldnt he be perfect and all knowing. If allah is so merciful why did he demolish the whole town of lud. There were kids...

www.somalispot.com

If you want to spread da'wah, there are numerous people that would appreciate your opinion on Islam there.

 

[AdoonkaAlle]

This is the only part of your statement that somewhat addresses my point.

If this was the case, I would support their right not to be arrested because thats the fault of the secular government for legitimising it. If the law says they are not to be arrested then its their fault if these people are not arrested. You cannot blame someone for taking advantage of the weaknesses in a law but rather the government for creating such weaknesses in the first place.

I do not support rape, I condemn rape but if a government legalises it, everything that comes after it is their fault and they should give them the rights they gave them. If they do not agree with that then they shouldn't have done what they did.

Whether a secular government changes their law to legitimise, kufr, shirk, rape, murder all types of injustice etc these action of theirs will never absolve you of your obligations as a muslim to be against them

How can you condemn rape and at the same time support the rapists not to be jailed ? what absurdity is this ? can you not see your contradiction ? something has to give you can't not hold on to 2 contradictions beliefs at the same time sxb

You can't consider homosexuality haram yet at the same time advocate and support for it's practice it's simple as that