Women should not be working

[Hodan from HR]

First of all, majority of women are working in female dominated careers. Nurses, teachers and social workers are always short staffed and overworked because more people are needed. So yeah, society will literally collapse without women in the workforce..

Your argument also highlights women's invisible labor. Women's contribution at home and in society has always been downplayed. That's why they are notoriously paid way less than male dominated jobs. A woman with a college degree in the social sciences still makes less than a highschool drop out man working in construction. You can also thank patriarchy and social conditioning since most women shy away from positions of power and are not as money oriented as they should be, because then, society might collapse.


Anyway, this discussion is pointless when reality states otherwise..

 

[techsamatar]

Somalis would be an endangered species if women couldn't work. Somalia since the civil war is build upon the hard work of our hooyos.

I love our hoyo' s but am sorry but that is just far fetched and not a True.

 

[Angelina]

I love our hoyo' s but am sorry but that is just far fetched and not a True.

Simply going to any market place in any major city or town in Somalia would dismantle your point. Most market place sellers of fruits and food in general are women back home and the amount of
Women that send money back is astronomical. Also look at the vast majority of workers in the care sector? Somali habayars, who send their money back home.

I think you live in a bubble and I’m glad your mothers and her co-wife have lived in privilege but I find you incredibly out of touch with regards to reality. The average Farax is struggling to look after one woman and I’m talking the basics. Without government assistance, a one bedroom apartment is literally £1500 and that’s not even including the bills that are becoming higher and higher every year.

I truly believe some young Muslim men are on LaLa land especially those that were raised in houses that relied on benefits and government assistance. Many of them had mothers who would get benefits and housing assistance which lowered costs for their husbands and their husbands would
Marry again and send their money back home to another wife. Even that generation of men didn’t provide properly. Yet the same men go on about how their mothers are being provided for!

 

[techsamatar]

Working class Women have always worked. Only reason why men now have issues with women working is because women are now being paid an amount that allows them to be financially independent of men. The power dynamics that once existed in which women were beholden to men have lowered and now women can choose to leave or not be in situations that don’t benefit them.

Our nomadic great grandmothers unless your great ayeeyos were from the city, worked harder than any of us modern working women. They built the Aresh (accommodations) walked miles to the well, fed the animals and the list goes on whilst also giving birth with 0 modern appliances helping them. Now many of us women who are educated work in air conditioned offices and are actually on our feet less than our female ancestors.

Also, the vast majority of working class European women worked in 15 hour factories at the start of the industrial revolution and before that worked in the fields as peasants in the agricultural industry.

I’ve had enough of Muslim men’s obsession with working women especially in the light of today’s economic recession and families struggling to even pay for rising bills and rent.

As mentioned, the plutocratic system compels both genders to work for survival and enriches itself through taxation. The average person needs both genders to work, given the inflation and exploitation inherent in this capitalistic system, to lead a comfortable life.

However, if a man is fully capable of providing for his wife and children without leaving the home empty for most of the day, avoiding putting children in what is perceived as indoctrination camps, and ensuring the mother fulfils her nurturing role, then she should refrain from working in mixed environments. In this perspective, labouring becomes the responsibility of the father.

"Only reason why men now have issues with women working is because women are now being paid an amount that allows them to be financially independent of men. The power dynamics that once existed in which women were beholden to men have lowered and now women can choose to leave or not be in situations that don’t benefit them."

In my view, this seems like nothing more than liberal feminist nonsense. Unless someone is suggesting that the Deen or the Prophet aimed to fulfil some nefarious plot orchestrated by certain men, it's hard to accept. The argument goes that women, in sacrificing their true purpose and deviating from the Sunnah and the ways of the most honoured women of Allah, have become a major factor in the alarming 70% divorce rate. This percentage is considered absurd, primarily attributed to women becoming independent, not needing a man or provider, and essentially taking on roles traditionally associated with men.

Moreover, I don't believe that my mother, stepmother, or my sister who is a housewife are beholden to any man. We are Somali, not Kafirs, and our women always have a way out or people to fall back on. The notion of independence and women working for capitalists is, in my opinion, a cause for the staggering divorce rates and the easy dismantling of families.

However, I do acknowledge that I might be more open to understanding why most people feel the need for both partners to work in order to survive. Yet, if we truly implemented the Deen, as we should, some might perceive my stance as looking for excuses or beating around the bushes.

 

[techsamatar]

Simply going to any market place in any major city or town in Somalia would dismantle your point. Most market place sellers of fruits and food in general are women back home and the amount of
Women that send money back is astronomical. Also look at the vast majority of workers in the care sector? Somali habayars, who send their money back home.

I think you live in a bubble and I’m glad your mothers and her co-wife have lived in privilege but I find you incredibly out of touch with regards to reality. The average Farax is struggling to look after one woman and I’m talking the basics. Without government assistance, a one bedroom apartment is literally £1500 and that’s not even including the bills that are becoming higher and higher every year.

I truly believe some young Muslim men are on LaLa land especially those that were raised in houses that relied on benefits and government assistance. Many of them had mothers who would get benefits and housing assistance which lowered costs for their husbands and their husbands would
Marry again and send their money back home to another wife. Even that generation of men didn’t provide properly. Yet the same men go on about how their mothers are being provided for!

I'll refrain from delving into this further, as I believe the discussion might become emotionally charged rather than grounded in reality and facts. From the economy of Mogadishu to businesses in Somalia, to dominance and control in Kenya, and the establishment of communities in Western countries, including significant ones in American states, all of this has been made possible and built on the backs of Somali uncles who started from scratch, often with less prestigious jobs. They worked hard, sending money back home to support their wives and even their wives' families.

Financial independence has played a significant role in shaping the mindset, to the point where there's a perception that a community's social economy and dependency are led by women. In the West, to be frank, women often receive government support, while fathers work. Given the size of Somali families, the financial support for children, coupled with the father's income, is often sufficient for a comfortable life.

And Also You trying to prove which gender sends money back home mostly being women has to be biggest Stretch You could make and is pure Cap and likely a Feminist soul coming out.

 

[techsamatar]

First of all, majority of women are working in female dominated careers. Nurses, teachers and social workers are always short staffed and overworked because more people are needed. So yeah, society will literally collapse without women in the workforce..

Your argument also highlights women's invisible labor. Women's contribution at home and in society has always been downplayed. That's why they are notoriously paid way less than male dominated jobs. A woman with a college degree in the social sciences still makes less than a highschool drop out man working in construction. You can also thank patriarchy and social conditioning since most women shy away from power positions and are not as money oriented as they should be, because then, society might collapse.


Anyway, this discussion is pointless when reality states otherwise..

I believe women have been integrated into the tax system primarily to benefit plutocrats and bankers, especially in the 9-5 work structure. This shift has steered them away from their true role and purpose, which involves raising the next generation and enjoying their lives as they rightfully deserve. In my opinion, if women were to stop working, the economy would continue to function normally. In fact, men's income might even increase, and job positions would still be fulfilled.

Proof.

 

[Angelina]

I'll refrain from delving into this further, as I believe the discussion might become emotionally charged rather than grounded in reality and facts.

There was a study that was posted on this forum about Somalia and business ownership and a good % are women as well. Hence a lot of my points are grounded in facts.

From the economy of Mogadishu to businesses in Somalia, to dominance and control in Kenya, and the establishment of communities in Western countries, including significant ones in American states, all of this has been made possible and built on the backs of Somali uncles who started from scratch, often with less prestigious jobs. They worked hard, sending money back home to support their wives and even their wives' families.

You need to understand that women work and send money. Simply go to any care jobs and it’s mostly now Somali hooyos since benefits have been cut.

Financial independence has played a significant role in shaping the mindset, to the point where there's a perception that a community's social economy and dependency are led by women. In the West, to be frank, women often receive government support, while fathers work. Given the size of Somali families, the financial support for children, coupled with the father's income, is often sufficient for a comfortable life.

You can’t be serious. Getting benefits whilst the father works is Haram and shows that a lot of these men can’t provide. They lie and act like single mothers and this is encouraged by the men, so how about you accept reality. You’re from a poor community who are often in the Dailymail for acting like single mothers and fathers to get better cheap housing and the like.

That’s why I find you whole premise to be a joke. Also the Conservative government has now cut benefits which is why many women now work. So there goes your argument.

Muslim men need to up their game instead of trying to focusing on what educated Muslim women are doing. In fact Most Somali women are in female dominated industries like teaching and health care, so what’s your point?

I also noticed you didn’t touch on the fact that working class women and nomadic women have always worked outside of the home, but now that women are making more money and are in cleaner less backbreaking conditions, you modern men have issues?

 

[Angelina]

I believe women have been integrated into the tax system primarily to benefit plutocrats and bankers, especially in the 9-5 work structure. This shift has steered them away from their true role and purpose, which involves raising the next generation and enjoying their lives as they rightfully deserve. In my opinion, if women were to stop working, the economy would continue to function normally. In fact, men's income might even increase, and job positions would still be fulfilled.

Proof.

Tech, you’re smarter than this? A TikTok video with the user name of dixi? Articles and studies please.

If women stopped the economy wouldn’t be able to function normally lol and that’s a fact.

 

[Hodan from HR]

I believe women have been integrated into the tax system primarily to benefit plutocrats and bankers, especially in the 9-5 work structure. This shift has steered them away from their true role and purpose, which involves raising the next generation and enjoying their lives as they rightfully deserve.

Aren't kindergarten teachers, daycare workers, caregivers, nannies doing exactly that?

I'd have taken your argument seriously if men were working equally in careers than involve working with children because these jobs are currently women dominate and it is women who are raising the next generation. Only difference is, now these women are paid for their labor..

 

[wheel]

No one's supposed to be doing these type of jobs. Men are also supposed to be hunting, fighting and the other stuff cavemen did. Women just need to suck it up and these dudes stfu.

 

[Himmler]

I agree to an extent but he is really romanticising the past, this kind of system can lead to a woman being financially abused and she has no means of exit due to not working. Also a stay at home mother/wife can be a very strenuous job, especially historically when washing machines and dishwashers didn’t exist, now imagine how it was when fridges/freezers didn’t exist, this is just the tip of the iceberg

 

[techsamatar]

There was a study that was posted on this forum about Somalia and business ownership and a good % are women as well. Hence a lot of my points are grounded in facts.

You need to understand that women work and send money. Simply go to any care jobs and it’s mostly now Somali hooyos since benefits have been cut.

You can’t be serious. Getting benefits whilst the father works is Haram and shows that a lot of these men can’t provide. They lie and act like single mothers and this is encouraged by the men, so how about you accept reality. You’re from a poor community who are often in the Dailymail for acting like single mothers and fathers to get better cheap housing and the like.

That’s why I find you whole premise to be a joke. Also the Conservative government has now cut benefits which is why many women now work. So there goes your argument.

Muslim men need to up their game instead of trying to focusing on what educated Muslim women are doing. In fact Most Somali women are in female dominated industries like teaching and health care, so what’s your point?

I also noticed you didn’t touch on the fact that working class women and nomadic women have always worked outside of the home, but now that women are making more money and are in cleaner less backbreaking conditions, you modern men have issues?

The Nomadic women of Our people did Family duties whether caring for children or household or getting water and other stuff, but the men provided and fought or whatever other stuff they done.

I would like the name of that study please so I can see this Fantasy.

Speaking from the time when we, as the first generation, arrived in the West, it was a common tactic for many Somali families. The women, including the hoyos (mothers), typically did not work because managing a large family was already stressful. It would have been a challenging and potentially dangerous task for women, especially those who did not know English well, to work 40 hours a week in a new country. Instead, fathers took on the responsibility, slaving off to provide for the family. These are straightforward facts, and you know it to be true. And of course the government should support them for having all those kids I know it is immoral but am sure even the Pakistani communities did the same when they came.

My stance is simple: if a man can provide a comfortable life and support without needing his wife's help, she should not be working, plain and simple and that is the way of Our deen. I don't want my wife stressed and toiling away with men bossing her around in a mixed environment, coming home to an empty house most of the time, or being tired and drained. She wouldn't even get to spend much time with the kids during the week, and we wouldn't have control over what influences they're exposed to.

Furthermore, if the man can manage all of that, the wife could consider learning a skill and starting an online business or pursuing other opportunities that don't involve traditional labor or office jobs. Nowadays, there are various paths to financial success.

 

[techsamatar]

Tech, you’re smarter than this? A TikTok video with the user name of dixi? Articles and studies please.

If women stopped the economy wouldn’t be able to function normally lol and that’s a fact.

To be fair, Malawah, women in the economy don't dominate industries to the extent that it would bring the economy to a stop. Most labour-intensive sectors, ranging from providing water to constructing houses and producing necessities, are predominantly male-dominated. Let's be honest, when was the last time you saw women working in sewages or construction in your area?

 

[Angelina]

@techsamatar

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/300646720_If_Women_Hold_Up_Half_the_Sky_How_Much_of_the_World's_Food_Do_They_Produce

Even in developing economies which are usually more traditional, poorer women are producing an estimate for 60% of foods and are thus working outside their homes for hours on ends, but aren’t paid adequately.

I simply can’t take a lot of young Western Somali men who argue your point seriously. Very rarely would you see these guys have issues with women working long and backbreaking hours, but they have issues with educated women who get paid more then at times and fairly in working conditions that are ten times better. It’s not about taxes or ‘capitalism’ since Muslim men never seem to talk about capitalism unless the subject is about women working in advanced societies, never about the horrible capitalist conditions of a Muslima working in a sweat shop factory in Bangladesh.

 

[techsamatar]

@techsamatar

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/300646720_If_Women_Hold_Up_Half_the_Sky_How_Much_of_the_World's_Food_Do_They_Produce

Even in developing economies which are usually more traditional, poorer women are producing an estimate for 60% of foods and are thus working outside their homes for hours on ends, but aren’t paid adequately.

I simply can’t take a lot of young Western Somali men who argue your point seriously. Very rarely would you see these guys have issues with women working long and backbreaking hours, but they have issues with educated women who get paid more then at times and fairly in working conditions that are ten times better. It’s not about taxes or ‘capitalism’ since Muslim men never seem to talk about capitalism unless the subject is about women working in advanced societies, never about the horrible capitalist conditions of a Muslima working in a sweat shop factory in Bangladesh.

Malawah, I understand that you are an independent, educated, and noble woman, and I respect that. My point of view doesn't disregard women like yourself. The main focus of the discussion was on those women who find themselves slaving away and putting immense strain on themselves when their husbands don't necessarily need their financial contribution. My concern lies with the exploitative system that forces both genders into this misery, and I believe women should resist it. They should recognize that their time could be better spent raising non-indoctrinated children and enjoying their lives as housewives.

Moreover, the alarming statistic of 70% of divorces being initiated by women in the West is, in my opinion, indicative of the issues created by this system. Lastly, I worry that the next generation of Muslim kids in the West might be brainwashed, and Islam could potentially weaken due to these challenges.

Whether a Muslim woman is working in a factory in Bangladesh or serving as a CEO in a tech company, my perspective and response remain the same for both scenarios.

 

[Angelina]

The Nomadic women of Our people did Family duties whether caring for children or household or getting water and other stuff, but the men provided and fought or whatever other stuff they done.

No, they also worked outside of the home and hence where doing additional duties that a woman in this day and age would be paid for. Building the Aresh, feeding and looking after cattle and walking miles to the well. The men basically focused on the camels. It was a joint effort and wasn’t based on only men providing. The nomadic system was very different and your point shows how ignorant you are of how Nomads lived. At least be humble enough to admit it Walal.

If you believe that women should enjoy and rest and you talked about women working long hours, do you know ten times difficult the life of a Nomadic woman was? Do you not see how privileged a working woman is compared to women that were indeed doing double shifts, but hardly profited since the lands and everything belonged to the men? Under Xeer some tribes didn’t even let women inherit by the way due to Jahiliya.

I would like the name of that study please so I can see this Fantasy.

Speaking from the time when we, as the first generation, arrived in the West, it was a common tactic for many Somali families. The women, including the hoyos (mothers), typically did not work because managing a large family was already stressful. It would have been a challenging and potentially dangerous task for women, especially those who did not know English well, to work 40 hours a week in a new country. Instead, fathers took on the responsibility, slaving off to provide for the family. These are straightforward facts, and you know it to be true. And of course the government should support them for having all those kids I know it is immoral but am sure even the Pakistani communities did the same when they came.

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My stance is simple: if a man can provide a comfortable life and support without needing his wife's help, she should not be working, plain and simple and that is the way of Our deen. I don't want my wife stressed and toiling away with men bossing her around in a mixed environment, coming home to an empty house most of the time, or being tired and drained. She wouldn't even get to spend much time with the kids during the week, and we wouldn't have control over what influences they're exposed to.

Women are allowed to work and as for freemixing, it’s haram for both genders. Also, most Somali women work in female dominated societies and it’s between their husbands and them what works for them.

It’s ironic coming from a Farax considering that divorce is rife amongst Somalis even back home, and culturally a lot of our men don’t even pay child support, hence it important for women to have savings and the very least.

Furthermore, if the man can manage all of that, the wife could consider learning a skill and starting an online business or pursuing other opportunities that don't involve traditional labor or office jobs. Nowadays, there are various paths to financial success.

In that situation, I agree. It’s the best way to go forward but having a business is still work.

 

[Hodan from HR]

I agree to an extent but he is really romanticising the past, this kind of system can lead to a woman being financially abused and she has no means of exit due to not working. Also a stay at home mother/wife can be a very strenuous job, especially historically when washing machines and dishwashers didn’t exist, now imagine how it was when fridges/freezers didn’t exist

My personal opinion without offending anyone; Wifes/Mothers should have their own source of income and not solely rely on husband's income. Even if he is not abusive and makes enough to support the family, as long as he is working 9-5, his income is reliant on his death. What happens if he were to get into a road accident or is diagnosed with cancer?

There's a reason some men prey on single mothers because they are more vulnerable and would do anything for their children. Any husband/father worth his salt knows this and would make sure his wife is financially independent of him so she can step up for their children in a worst case scenario..

 

[techsamatar]

Aren't kindergarten teachers, daycare workers caregivers, nannies doing exactly that?

I'd have taken your argument seriously if men were working equally in careers than involve working with children because these jobs are currently women dominate and it is women who are raising the next generation. Only difference is, now these women are paid for our labor..

Hodan, you're well aware that if we delved into the topic of equal participation in careers or industries, it might not paint a favorable picture for women. I'm not suggesting you're a feminist, but it's worth noting that feminists typically advocate for equality and higher pay, particularly in the 2% of non-laboring or office jobs, rather than the 98% of essential and male-dominated, often labor-intensive roles. Even within those 2%, it's often observed that men work longer hours and achieve more tangible results.

 

[Angelina]

Malawah, I understand that you are an independent, educated, and noble woman, and I respect that. My point of view doesn't disregard women like yourself. The main focus of the discussion was on those women who find themselves slaving away and putting immense strain on themselves when their husbands don't necessarily need their financial contribution.

What happens if their husbands divorces them? Dies or ends up having an illness? Or if the husband is stingy?

Muslim brothers and fathers are struggling to provide for their own families with many having to resort to benefits and the like, so when a mother is in financial need who looks after them? As we’ve seen throughout the years, they look after themselves. Single mothers Somali women fend for their own life kids and hardly get child support.

This is why I find you so out of touch with reality.

My concern lies with the exploitative system that forces both genders into this misery, and I believe women should resist it. They should recognize that their time could be better spent raising non-indoctrinated children and enjoying their lives as housewives.

Moreover, the alarming statistic of 70% of divorces being initiated by women in the West is, in my opinion, indicative of the issues created by this system. Lastly, I worry that the next generation of Muslim kids in the West might be brainwashed, and Islam could potentially weaken due to these challenges.

Whether a Muslim woman is working in a factory in Bangladesh or serving as a CEO in a tech company, my perspective and response remain the same for both scenarios.

A woman that works in tech has a remote job at home earning at times 10k a month. Why is that an issue? How is she being exploited when her working hours are 5X less than any of her female ancestors?

 

[Angelina]

Hodan, you're well aware that if we delved into the topic of equal participation in careers or industries, it might not paint a favorable picture for women. I'm not suggesting you're a feminist, but it's worth noting that feminists typically advocate for equality and higher pay, particularly in the 2% of non-laboring or office jobs, rather than the 98% of essential and male-dominated, often labor-intensive roles. Even within those 2%, it's often observed that men work longer hours and achieve more tangible results.

What’s more essential than the food we eat? If you want to talk about essential jobs, your whole argument falls apart spectacularly.

I’ve literally sent you a study about ‘traditional’ developing societies in which women makeup more 60% of the food production. You’re ignoring that which is insane as food is the most important need for humans and it’s women that are producing it in the agricultural sector which is also back-breaking and labor intensive. The food that these women produce are also used in the Western world.

Seriously educate yourself and get off TikTok and read actual studies.

Read this, women near enough ‘feed the world’ and it’s women labor and without them many societies wouldn’t eat.

Food for all - World food summit - Agricultural machinery worldwide

www.fao.org