Which of the following attributes in a woman do you rate the highest.

[𐒋𐒖𐒆𐒔𐒖𐒕𐒈]

No, I got it. It’s that very principle of yours you’re trying to peddle i detest in which you’re tying to frame it as one or the other.

Like what is the principal behind it, let’s be honest here. It’s the idea that a woman who wants financial security is throwing away the virtues of motherhood, when in fact you should be protecting the virtues of motherhood as a community by not forcing women to make those hard choices.

When those ‘mothers’ have to work dead end jobs as 50-60 yr olds when they should be resting after a life of being housewives, then where is our appreciation for their virtues?

My point is, it shouldn’t be one or the other. Women should make sure they have some sort of protection as when shit hits the fan, the very people that are talking about how motherhood and being a housewife is superior will not help you to feed yourself and your children. Society is no longer tribal or community based. It’s individualistic.

Sorry to be harsh. It’s the way the question was framed that rubbed me up the wrong way. Your intentions could be completely innocent.

Let me redirect you. I am FOR availing financial stability, and security for the mother / wife, and family. Let us put that aside.

My question was: if it is a choice between seeking financial security vs a healthy family is to be made, in principle, do the gains in the former outweigh virtues in the latter?

 

[Odious Delirium]

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I wouldn't take what I say on here seriously at all when I make generalisations

I leave inflammatory comments randomly in my text to see if people are still engaging with my wall of text and just to keep whoever I'm in discussion with fired up or to ruffle there feathers etc

 

[Angelina]

Let me redirect you. I am FOR availing financial stability, and security for the mother / wife, and family. Let us put that aside.

My question was: if it is a choice between seeking financial security vs a healthy family is to be made, in principle, do the gains in the former outweigh virtues in the latter?

How can a family be healthy if a woman fears that if her husband was to die before her, divorces her or becomes ill she’ll have nothing to stand on in this individualistic society?

I don’t see how a family can be healthy when one party has all of the financial capital and one is literally penniless. For all of people’s nonsense about how the husband’s money is their wives as well, it is indeed false. Islamically the husband is only obliged to provide her with shelter, food and clothing. If he decided to talaq her even if she was cleaning his home for 20 odd years and she only has $3 to her name and no education, that isn’t his concern or obligation to be concerned. That’s the reality. The virtues of being a mother to his kids in a healthy home for decades and looking after his assets isn’t a consideration.

That’s the reality. All that I mentioned wasn’t an issue for our great grandmothers gen as nomadic/community/tribal set ups were very different to the world we live in.

 

[𐒋𐒖𐒆𐒔𐒖𐒕𐒈]

How can a family be healthy if a woman fears that if her husband was to die before her, divorces her or becomes ill she’ll have nothing to stand on in this individualistic society?

I don’t see how a family can be healthy when one party has all of the financial capital and one is literally penniless. For all of people’s nonsense about how the husband’s money is their wives as well, it is indeed false. Islamically the husband is only obliged to provide her with shelter, food and clothing. If he decided to talaq her even if she was cleaning his home for 20 odd years and she only has $3 to her name and no education, that isn’t his concern or obligation to be concerned. That’s the reality. The virtues of being a mother to his kids in a healthy home for decades and looking after his assets isn’t a consideration.

That is one bleak scenaria you paint, and is indeed a reality for many, however let us consider the opposite scenaria, where the husband is a just man, avails for his family, and ensures they are in good standing, financially, in the event of his demise, primarily for the mother / wife. In other words, the financial insecurity is being eliminated out of the equation. Do you now see where a mother / wife raising her family is the ultimate goodness for the family, and for the mother?

 

[𐒋𐒖𐒆𐒔𐒖𐒕𐒈]

Also, why did you choose that sentence only instead of also engaging with my reasoning for that?

It was not to take it out of context, or misrepresent your thought, but to draw attention to a thread of interest in the debate.

Postscript:
Besides, I have become accustomed to your style of debating, where you get very passionate, which is commendable, yet tend to joust with multiple actors, in your mind, at any given moment, and I try to remain on point to avoid being drawn into an oncoming avalanche of imbroglio out of which I might not be able to wriggle. I do not fancy drowning!

 

[Angelina]

That is one bleak scenaria you paint, and is indeed a reality for many, however let us consider the opposite scenaria, where the husband is a just man, avails for his family, and ensures they are in good standing, financially, in the event of his demise, primarily for the mother / wife. In other words, the financial insecurity is being eliminated out of the equation. Do you now see where a mother / wife raising her family is the ultimate goodness for the family, and for the mother?

Isn’t that what I was advocating all along? Example the husband setting up some sort of savings account ect, if he buys a family home putting it under both of their names so upon death there isn’t any drama.
Example, if a man only has daughters, since his daughters will now have to share the inheritance with uncles depending on his family, the wife and girls might have to move out.

I think being a housewife is amazing, but I don’t think women who work aren’t great mothers, they too are raising their kids and are indeed the primary caregivers. But my whole point is, let’s as a community give women the incentive to stay home instead of screaming ‘feminism’. Those men aren’t going to pay your bills when you’ve been at home and unskilled for decades with 0 assets and now you’re forced to actually work in a dead end job. They won’t be around. The sad reality is that the ‘career’ woman they were clowning would have it better due to lighter work load, pension and assets she can fall back on.

All that I mentioned wasn’t an issue for our nomadic great grandparents as nomadic/community/tribal set ups were very different to the world we live in.

 

[Hodan from HR]

I wouldn't take what I say on here seriously at all when I make generalisations

I leave inflammatory comments randomly in my text to see if people are still engaging with my wall of text and just to keep whoever I'm in discussion with fired up or to ruffle there feathers etc

You win coz your housewife posts gets to me everytime..

It is irrational and I know you are not addressing me, but the thought that I have to give up my career/passion to support my future husband's sounds absurd!

 

[𐒋𐒖𐒆𐒔𐒖𐒕𐒈]

Isn’t that what I was advocating all along? Example the husband setting up some sort of savings account ect, if he buys a family home putting it under both of their names so upon death there isn’t any drama.

On this, we are in agreement, so what made you to think I was against it?

I think being a housewife is amazing, but I don’t think women who work aren’t great mothers, they too are raising their kids and are indeed the primary caregivers.

It is tough, for sacrifices have to be made, and my point is, let us get away from that, if possible, and work towards a family structure where fathers could, and do provide protection, financial or otherwise in ensuring mothers focus upon raising the family.

But my whole point is, let’s as a community give women the incentive to stay home instead of screaming ‘feminism’.

See, what I mean, you were jousting with a chauvinistic toerag squatting somewhere in your head, and have formulated a preset conclusion that all men must be like he the evil!

The sad reality is that the ‘career’ woman they were clowning would have it better due to lighter work load, pension and assets she can fall back on.

Many of the career women I know of, with families, both in my family and colleagues, bemoan had they known what they know now, they would have chosen motherhood earlier on, and would have perhaps considered rejoining the workforce post raising their children.

 

[Angelina]

On this, we are in agreement, so what made you to think I was against it?

It is tough, for sacrifices have to be made, and my point is, let us get away from that, if possible, and work towards a family structure where fathers could, and do provide protection, financial or otherwise in ensuring mothers focus upon raising the family.

See, what I mean, you were jousting with a chauvinistic toerag squatting somewhere in your head, and have formulated a preset conclusion that all men must be like he the evil!

Many of the career women I know of, with families, both in my family and colleagues, bemoan had they known what they know now, they would have chosen motherhood earlier on, and would have perhaps considered rejoining the workforce post raising their children.

I’m comparing being a career women whose divorced vs an unskilled one who has been a housewife for decades who is also divorced. I think it’s clear which one would have an easier ride. Most of the Habayars in my are now work in care, dealing with elderly pensioners and it’s a hard job. But when you’re unskilled and have been out of the work force for decades you don’t have a choice.

I get why they bemoan as snapping back after pregnancy becomes harder when you’re older also your energy levels are lower when in yours 30s. Tbh Somali hooyos who started having children in their late teens early 20s continue to have kids well into their 30s and even early 40s. But I suppose the difference is that they can get the elder batch of kids to help raise the younger ones. My point is, having children earlier doesn’t stop women from also having kids later.

 

[Odious Delirium]

You win coz your housewife posts gets to me everytime..

It is irrational and I know you are not addressing me, but the thought that I have to give up my career/passion to support my future husband's sounds absurd!

Well yeah that's why I wouldn't choose a career woman and force her to drop something she's passionate about im not bothered enough to be persistent and convince her to change her mind. I could potentially do it but long term it will never last.

It's not irrational because many people are willing and in general I'm after someone on my wavelength so they will probably be in a similar field if she is educated and in that case won't be dropping what they are passionate about and in general am not against a woman having something she's passionate about aslong as its in line with my values and works with in my framework of what I want from a marriage which includes having a traditional wife. It's hard to be a trad wife as a career woman.

the thought that I have to give up my career/passion to support my future husband's sounds absurd!

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[Odious Delirium]

You win coz your housewife posts gets to me everytime..

It is irrational and I know you are not addressing me, but the thought that I have to give up my career/passion to support my future husband's sounds absurd!

Question.
Why does it rub you the wrong way tho?

A few women have vocalised this on here at me putting themselves in the shoes of my potential wife why even do that?

If you know its not for you why does it irk you

Its not like I'm forcing you into those circumstances personally against your will

 

[Hodan from HR]

Well yeah that's why I wouldn't choose a career woman and force her to drop something she's passionate about im not bothered enough to be persistent and convince her to change her mind.

And I commend you for that walahi. They're women who want to be stay home mum and hate working. So they'll appreciate the lifestyle you plan to provide for your future family

I could potentially do it but long term it will never last.

It's not irrational because many people are willing and in general I'm after someone on my wavelength so they will probably be in a similar field if she is educated and in that case won't be dropping what they are passionate about and in general am not against a woman having something she's passionate about aslong as its in line with my values and works with in my framework of what I want from a marriage which includes having a traditional wife. It's hard to be a trad wife as a career woman.

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Not gonna lie. I have no intention of being trad wife.

I'm a quasi-liberal Muslim educated woman. A tough position to be in, a must admit. I dont want the gaal boyfriend/girlfriend lifestyle or be with a man who does drugs. Yet I am not willing to be obedient submissive wife for a Muslim man. I am strong headed and very independent. I want to do what I wanna do when I want to do, without answering to anyone.

 

[Hodan from HR]

Question.
Why does it rub you the wrong way tho?

A few women have vocalised this on here at me putting themselves in the shoes of my potential wife why even do that?

If you know its not for you why does it irk you

I'm not sure how to say this without sounding rude..

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[cooli3o]

I'm a quasi-liberal Muslim educated woman. A tough position to be in, a must admit. I dont want the gaal boyfriend/girlfriend lifestyle or be with a man who does drugs. Yet I am not willing to be obedient submissive wife for a Muslim man. I am strong headed and very independent. I want to do what I wanna do when I want to do, without answering to anyone.

why not just marry a submissive man?

 

[Dharbash]

And why?

Mindset, beauty doesn’t phase me as much as it did years back, it’ll likely change anyway, what’s more important is their personality/mindset, imagine they look good but you hate them

 

[Hodan from HR]

why not just marry a submissive man?

An oxymoron indeed.
I don't think the hot-blooded somali man can be submissive

Honestly, I do not care for this submissive vs dominant dynamic. I'd like to have an egalitarian marriage where we mutually support each other's ambitions and careers, and are willing to compromise for the greater good of our family when the need arises. Inshallah..

 

[cooli3o]

An oxymoron indeed.
I don't think the hot-blooded somali man can be submissive

Honestly, I do not care for this submissive vs dominant dynamic. I'd like to have an egalitarian marriage where we mutually support each other's ambitions and careers, and are willing to compromise for the greater good of our family when the need arises. Inshallah..

thats what submissive is

 

[Hodan from HR]

thats what submissive is

No, it is not.

The definition of submissive is willingly yield to the authority/control of another

While egalitarian means partners share decision-making, responsibility and duties equally.

 

[cooli3o]

No, it is not.

The definition of submissive is willingly yield to the authority/control of another

While egalitarian means partners share decision-making, responsibility and duties equally.

No no, you do not understand what a submissive man is, there is not such thing as a relationship where both people are equal, its a lie, theres always a man of the house, most egalitarian relationships the women is wearing the pants, so if you want that, you gotta go for a submissive man.

 

[Hodan from HR]

No no, you do not understand what a submissive man is, there is not such thing as a relationship where both people are equal, its a lie, theres always a man of the house, most egalitarian relationships the women is wearing the pants, so if you want that, you gotta go for a submissive man.

Naah, I like wearing baati