Which is more ludicrous

[Dhabaal]

It is important to understand Somalis are not in conflict because of Qabilism.

What is happening in Somalia is purely a conflict in securing material benefits. (Land/Territory,Resources and Political representation). These widespread grievances came about due to the imposition of incompatible structures and the constant adherence to western and non-Somali values & political ideologies.

I can explain deeper but i have to go now so i will pick this up later. K!

So to pick up from where i left off.

This might be a bit lengthy but bear with me, as it will give you a context. So please read what i wrote below.

In the first decade of the independent Somali state, politics was centered in Mogadishu. Although the country was democratic, many communities outside of Mogadishu were marginalized. This created a deep mistrust for a centralized state.

Here are some key factors operating the current day mistrust.

1) Unequal destribution of resources fostering mistrust

Before the civil war people living north and far down south had to go to mogadishu to get what they need from housing,Education,passport and jobs. Somalis from various regions had these complaint about not going all the way to mogadishu to get these services but to recieve them locally.

Somalis from all backgrounds shared thecomplaint: “I do not want to go to Mogadishu to get a passport or a university education.'' I need to access these services close to home.”

These complaints were not unfounded, previous governments did maintain resources for these basic services in the
capital, even though they could have been delivered locally.6

Thus Somalis associate centralized and authoritarian government with the unequal sharing of resources – a practice locally referred to as ''sad-bursi''.


2). Unequal political participation fostering mistrust.

Many people who support decentralization also demand genuine political participation.
representatives. This demand is not limited to the elites of one region or clan, or even one class (the elite). Rather, it is common to hear Somalis saying, “I do not want Mogadishu authority to appoint the mayor of my town or the governor of my region.”

This is a widespread grievance that many Somalis, across the country, have against centralized and authoritarian administration in the capital. This is particularly the case because previous governments appointed governors, mayors, police commissioners, and all other bureaucrats for different agencies. This previous system was so centralized that even the decision to transfer a schoolteacher from one place to another
was made in Mogadishu.


3). The reason behind current day federal states.

The build up of mistrust against a centralized state fueled by the lack of political participation and resource distrubiution resulted in the creation of federal clan states.

Reinforcing this mistrust against a centralized state is newly common practice to organize a political party somewhere and claim presidency over a given region.

The issues are more complex then clan or clannism. They are based on actual grieviances and if we dont get to the roots of these issues, instead of complaining about the symptoms we will never see the light of day.

http://english.dohainstitute.org/file/G ... 64b9b9964b

 

[Dhabaal]

You better take note of what i explained on Page 1 @McLovin @Bahal @Mudug-Madman . You only prove to show how insecure you are when you try to put significance in an otherwise insignificant part of a genealogy which had zero in the making of the Somali clan structure and formation.

The conflict does not operate around clan lines, but rather a conflict in securing material benefits (Resources, Political representations. etc) as Ive shown on the excerpt i posted above.

It is important to understand Somalis have traditional institutions aimed at mediating conflict called ''Xeer''. Its's been talked about the Somali legal system ''Xeer'' and how much of an advanced method of conflict prevention and resolution it is. How an evolved form of this system can meet modern challenges.

Ali Moussa Iye dedicated a whole book on it explaining the intricacies of Xeer democracy, political philosophy and governance.

Xeer: Traditional Democratic System with the Potential to Meet Some Modern Challenges.
http://dspace-roma3.caspur.it/bitstr...20- 2009.pdf


Now Xeer has a proven track record when applied correctly, evident in Djibouti, Somaliland and Puntland how it has created sustainable peace.

The reason why Somali society has been stagnant for 25+ years is the reluctance of the political elite to accept Somali solutions to Somali problems but rather to re-invent the wheel by imposing foreign imported failed democratic models & values , which is aimed to stifle the Somali political genius in creating our own democracy that takes into account all the prevailing conditions within our society.

 

[McLovin]

Needlessly complicating the whole thing. Somalis would rather die than be ruled by a member of another clan. Thats why centralized authority hasnt worked very well in somalia. Xeer hasnt been codified yet moreover isnt it the same system that gave us the lovely tradition of blood money? Dont think i am advocating for copy pasting western judiciary system to a, but xeer has a long way to go before its workable.

Somalis would rather invent a whole new judiciary system to work around clannism than to abandon it. Yikes

 

[Dhabaal]

Needlessly complicating the whole thing. Somalis would rather die than be ruled by a member of another clan. Thats why centralized authority hasnt worked very well in somalia. Xeer hasnt been codified yet and isnt it the same system that gave us the lovely tradition of blood money? Dont think i am advocating for copy pasting western judiciary system to a, but xeer has a long way to go before it workable.

Somalis would rather invent a whole new judiciary system to work around clannism than to abandon it. Yikes

You do realize the Somali hierarchal system of organization doesn't work like that? There has never really been an issue against being ruled by another clan in specific. Because the Somali democratic system is based on parity, direct participation and the search for consensus. A democracy at a confederation level.
Blood money isn't used to punish criminals and transgression, it is just a simple compensation fee if you may ask. To ensure that there is no hostile feeling of revenge or ''eye for an eye'' between the parties involved. So don't misunderstand it.


Xeer has been Codified. Ali Moussa Iye dedicated a whole book on it explaining the intricacies of Xeer democracy, political philosophy and governance ---->>> http://dspace-roma3.caspur.it/bitstream/2307/2955/1/Halabuur - n1-2 - 2009.pdf

I suggest you avoid the Western oriental writing out there about it and read Ali Moussa's informative study.

Here are some overview qoutes from the book.

Contrary to common belief , codified structured of the xeer and the underlying conceptualizatin may illustrate the hypothesis that it's founders were not illiterate elders from the bush as legends affirm, but educated peoples coming from Islamic cities around the red sea

and

Xeer is a social-political contract which differentiates itself from other corpus of knowledge of the Somali community through the rigor of its structuring and precision of its codification, It consists of an ensamble of values,norms and laws that form a coherent system. It has its own history, doctrine, literature and jargon. Like any system institutions and specialists, its own logic and autonomy.

Western democracy was allowed to evolve, So to must our form of democratic system be allowed to evolve as well. The thing that is great about Xeer is that it is not a static system fixed once and for all.

Finally i would like to mention another aspect of the xeer that contradicts the common belief in a kind of ''mechanic'' traditional society: its openness to change. A percept says Waxaan la arkin waxaan la maqlin lagu magaa ''An unseen case requires an unheard judgement'' .Like the British Common Law, it is based on judicial precedent. Every deliberation of an Assembly should respect existing jurisprudence , and if an innovation is introduced. it becomes a basis for new jurisprudence.

 

[dhegdheer]

I didn't even know younger ppl born outside of Somalia knew so much about clan/clan history until I came here.

I blame their parents.

 

[McLovin]

Blood money isn't used to punish criminals and transgression, it is just a simple compensation fee if you may ask. To ensure that there is no hostile feeling of revenge or ''eye for an eye'' between the parties involved. So don't misunderstand it.

That was my very argument. It allows murderers to walk free as long as they pay the financial compensation to the affected family. Where is the punitive justice? Anyways I'm sure this part of xeer can be modernised

Xeer has been Codified. Ali Moussa Iye dedicated a whole book on it explaining the intricacies of Xeer democracy, political philosophy and governance ---->>> http://dspace-roma3.caspur.it/bitstream/2307/2955/1/Halabuur - n1-2 - 2009.pdf

Oh it has, hasn't it. Please cite me this codified work instead of linking me what some guy thinks about it in his cultural journal which includes things like poetry and drama.

I suggest you avoid the Western oriental writing out there about it and read Ali Moussa's informative study.

Once again no evidence of this codified work.

Western democracy was allowed to evolve, So to must our form of democratic system be allowed to evolve as well. The thing that is great about Xeer is that it is not a static system fixed once and for all.

I honestly have no opinion on this and couldn't care less. My criticism is for qabiil and it's toxic influence on the Somali psyche

 

[Dhabaal]

That was my very argument. It allows murderers to walk free as long as they pay the financial compensation to the affected family. Where is the punitive justice? Anyways I'm sure this part of xeer can be modernised

They don't let people walk free, they rehabilitate them, Xeer is used in combination with Sharia. Which is were the punitive justice come from, Xeer on the other hands purpose is not to punish but to convince ,reconcile and restore peace. It is a communal justice system that targets the group rather than the individual.

Read the study i posted, it is explained better on there.

Oh it has, hasn't it. Please cite me this codified work instead of linking me what some guy thinks about it in his cultural journal which includes things like poetry and drama
Once again no evidence of this codified work.

It is a PDF file of a Somali cultural Joranal and you need to scroll down to the page 6 and you will see a study with the title Xeer: Traditional Democratic System with the Potential to Meet Some Modern Challenges.

It is a study where Ali Mousa Iye carefully explained the codified structure of the Xeer, its political philosophy and governance. The Guddi(consititution) The Gande(parliament) and the Xeer as a Penal code. Military hierarchy, History etc.. the whole joint.


You know what i''ll make it easier for you i will screen shot the page and show where it is at. Just so you can't bulshitt readers with your bigoted denial.

If i could copy an paste the whole study i would have. Ali Mousa Iye is the Chief of Division of Cultural Policies and Inter-cultural Dialogue at UNESCO, just putting it out there.


Now stop acting like a bigot that is intolerant to differing viewpoints and actually inform yourself by reading it.

 

[Dhabaal]

I honestly have no opinion on this and couldn't care less. My criticism is for qabiil and it's toxic influence on the Somali psyche

If you have no informed opinions. Then its better to stay quiet, and you should lose the attitude thats says my ''Ignorance is as good as your knowledge'' because it is not. Understand basic common sense , ''Read'' then offer an informed opinion.

First of all Qolo has no toxic influence on the Somali psyche. Somali clans are not a cult or ideology or a written doctrine that preaches violence or division. They are just social units or extended network of families. The function of clan is to be a trust/support group an extended community or networks you can rely upon and to draw capital there from.

As a matter of fact ''Tribe'' and ''Qabil'' are unsuitable terms for describing our unique social reality, both are foreign and carry with them all kinds connotations and notions that fall outside. So i for one reject the usage of terms like ''Qabilism'' and ''Tribalism'' since they are misleading and work to misrepresent Something which is ''Uniquely'' Somali and negatively stereotype it with foreign notions separate from our reality.

One rather prefer Somali constructed terminology like ''Reer''(closest relative), ''Qoys''(Nuclear family) and ''Qolo''(Extented Family), which describes the family & community oriented nature of Somali society rather than this cliche depiction of us as some ''unlawful violent tribalists'', which is just a sad production of Colonial ethnology that here showed the limits of its capacity to understand communities organized in a different way than the Western hierarchical system of organization

 

[McLovin]

They don't let people walk free, they rehabilitate them, Xeer is used in combination with Sharia

We all know the glorious values that sharia entails. So much for being agnostic

It is a study where Ali Mousa Iye carefully explained the codified structure of the Xeer,

Can you please provide evidence this codified work even exists? Your doublespeak isn't convincing anyone

Now stop acting like a bigot that is intolerant to differing viewpoints and actually inform yourself by reading it.

Spare me you insufferable c*nt

 

[McLovin]

If you have no informed opinions. Then its better to stay quiet, and you should lose the attitude thats says my ''Ignorance is as good as your knowledge'' because it is not. Understand basic common sense , ''Read'' then offer an informed opinion.

First of all Qolo has no toxic influence on the Somali psyche. Somali clans are not a cult or ideology or a written doctrine that preaches violence or division. They are just social units or extended network of families. The function of clan is to be a trust/support group an extended community or networks you can rely upon and to draw capital there from.

As a matter of fact ''Tribe'' and ''Qabil'' are unsuitable terms for describing our unique social reality, both are foreign and carry with them all kinds connotations and notions that fall outside. So i for one reject the usage of terms like ''Qabilism'' and ''Tribalism'' since they are misleading and work to misrepresent Something which is ''Uniquely'' Somali and negatively stereotype it with foreign notions separate from our reality.

One rather prefer Somali constructed terminology like ''Reer''(closest relative), ''Qoys''(Nuclear family) and ''Qolo''(Extented Family), which describes the family & community oriented nature of Somali society rather than this cliche depiction of us as some ''unlawful violent tribalists'', which is just a sad production of Colonial ethnology that here showed the limits of its capacity to understand communities organized in a different way than the Western hierarchical system of organization

What are you gonna try to convince me next. Drinking mercury is ok? Foh

 

[Dhabaal]

I'm not trying to convince you of anything. I already know you are a inflexible Eurocentric cuck, . Everything i post, i post for the conscious Somali readers, lurkers and others interested in actually being informed about the dynamics of Somali society.

Can you please provide evidence this codified work even exists? Your doublespeak isn't convincing me.

Elaborate, evidence in your language must be something from your ass crack.

Perhaps you are too mentally challenged since you can't even croll down to the 6th page and read damn codified work in the pdf file i posted.

 

[McLovin]

Xeer is primitive and only suited for stateless clannish societies. Even your predecessors acknowledged that


Despite the obvious differences in the content of their laws and the distinctions between the British common law legacy in the north and the Italian civil law legacy in the south, the development of the judicial system in both areas was remarkably similar on three fronts. First, both administrations established the supremacy of codified and secular Western law, particularly for significant criminal matters.

If you want us to stay a stateless country of warring tribes then that's your opinion


Stop living in the West and go make your ethnocentric theories come true

 

[Dhabaal]

Xeer is primitive and only suited for stateless clannish societies. Even your predecessors acknowledged that

On the contrary actually Xeer is a very sophisticated system and it was created by educated medieval Somalis. It is a system universally respected and accepted the community.

On the Contrary,Societies of warriors in Scandinavia or in Africa are among countries are among societies that have developed the most advanced methods of conflict prevention and resolution

Here is a testimony

“ Xeer will never stop being used, Xeer is stronger than any government's laws. The government laws don't satisfy the people; they do not bring about a sufficient justice, and so they do not bring peace between the groups. ”

— Dahir Mohamed Grasi
http://www.legalaffairs.org/issues/September-October-2005/scene_lombard_sepoct05.msp

Despite the obvious differences in the content of their laws and the distinctions between the British common law legacy in the north and the Italian civil law legacy in the south, the development of the judicial system in both areas was remarkably similar on three fronts. First, both administrations established the supremacy of codified and secular Western law, particularly for significant criminal matters.

[/QUOTE]
Yeah because that judicial system and centralized govt really worked out for the former Barre led Regime . While Puntland, Somaliland and Djibouti are enjoying peace, stability and governance by administrating the Xeer system for more than 20 years now.

The Southern-Central part with the use of Western Law,Amisom and UN can't even get themselves together and out of turmoil.

If you want us to stay a stateless country of warring tribes then that's your opinion


Stop living in the West and go make your ethnocentric theories come true

No my opinion is for Somalia to be left on her own to carve out a democracy that deals with all the prevailing conditions of it society.

My ethnocentric theories kulaha, you are acting like i have something specifically against Western system because it is not Indigenous or native.. Not really , i am ok with adopting outside systems with the condition that it works and is compatible.

Unfortunately the constant adherence to western values and imposition of these incompatible systems led to downfall of the Somali state. So what i am against is for us to re-invent the wheel.

Well these are no simple theories, they are actually proven in practice., Xeer is in use across many Somali regions such as Puntland and Somaliland and has proven its success in Practice.

The Success of Clan Governance in Somalia: Beyond Failed State Discourse
http://somalithinktank.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/Latest-1.pdf

Through traditional clan based governance and conflict resolution, Somaliland and Puntland achieved success in terms of peace and development. The two regions broke away from the rest of the country and now operate independently.

Since 2004, different transitional governments came in to power. None of them succeeded to bring back the security and the rule of law in Somalia. One of the reasons for this failure is lack of consideration for traditional social processes by international community in in the last 20 years.[/QUOTE

 

[McLovin]

Yeah because that judicial system and centralized govt really worked out for the former Barre led Regime

It would have worked out fine if it wasn't for clan politics and his blunders in the ogaden. Stop skewing history to prove your point

No my opinion is for Somalia to be left on her own to carve out a democracy that deals with all the prevailing conditions of it society.

Fair position. But might as well be waiting for fish to climb trees

“ Xeer will never stop being used, Xeer is stronger than any government's laws. The government laws don't satisfy the people; they do not bring about a sufficient justice, and so they do not bring peace between the groups. ”

Maybe the problem is the people refusing to let go of said archaic traditions. But can you blame them for not understanding democracy they are mostly cattle herders

A question for you though. How many countries use clan based governance. Can you name a single one with relatively decent development index?

 

[Dhabaal]

In fact i could also mention the Islamic Courts Union as an example of how they brought unparalleled peace to Southern and Central Somalia in their brief 6th month rule. The used Xeer to bring back peace ,governance and stability in Somalia. The created ingenious business systems and allowed for the Somali public to access resources.


Somalia: Not Just Islam - How Somalia's Union of Islamic Courts Used Local Customs
http://allafrica.com/stories/201307231186.html

United Nations officials now concede that the country was in better shape during the brief reign of Somalia’s Islamist movement last year. “It was more peaceful,” Mr. Laroche said. “And much easier for us to work. The Islamists didn’t cause us any problems.”

Mr. Ould-Abdallah called those six months, which were essentially the only epoch of peace most Somalis have tasted for years, Somalia’s “golden era.”

Golden era they say. Imagine if these 6th months of stability and peace kept going and America did not send Ethiopian troops to invade our country.

You wouldn't have Alshabaab, you wouldn't have the 2010-11 famine and certainly we wouldn't have political actors and western instituted puppets in office.


Clan or Religion is not the problem in Somali society,it is the prevailing denial of Somali self-determination which is the issue here.

 

[Dhabaal]

It would have worked out fine if it wasn't for clan politics and his blunders in the ogaden. Stop skewing history to prove your point

Politics was centered in Mogadishu, so there wasn't much clan politics going on at all. What happened was that communities outside of Mogadishu were marginalized.

In the first decade of the independent Somali state, politics was centered in Mogadishu. Although the country was democratic, many communities outside of Mogadishu were marginalized. This created a deep mistrust for a centralized state.

Ogaden war and totalitarianism of the former regime was the trigger point to the civil war when Barre try to silence these greviances against unequal political participation and unequal resources distribution. These inequities were deepened when more Somalis from Ogaden fled into the northern regions.

Fair position. But might as well be waiting for fish to climb trees

Self-determination is an inalienable human right. One cannot continue to deny Somali people that.

Maybe the problem is the people refusing to let go of said archaic traditions. But can you blame them for not understanding democracy they are mostly cattle herders

A question for you though. How many countries use clan based governance. Can you name a single one with relatively decent development index?

I am not saying that we should involve clan in to the political arena, clan should always remain at a civic level and that in turn will help guide the political landscape.

Each society must go through its own intelligent processes to figure out what is best for their interest. Europe has always been free to find its own path, and so to must Somalia. And success can never be measured by us all meeting up at the same conclusions because that would be an assault on diversity and plurality.

You cannot compare Apples with Oranges. Everyone has to implement systems that aims to address their own unique circumstances.

 

[McLovin]

You can still have diversity in ideologies and opinions while still abiding by a central authority. Look at USA for example

You are in the opinion of xeer and shariah based jurisprudence. I want us to go back to our centralised democratic government with a constitution where minorities and women get equal representation. So in this regard, we are gonna have to agree to disagree

 

[Dhabaal]

You can still have diversity in ideologies and opinions while still abiding by a central authority. Look at USA for example

You are in the opinion of xeer and shariah based jurisprudence. I want us to go back to our centralised democratic government with a constitution and where minorities and women get equal representation. So in this regard, we are gonna have to agree to disagree

What did i say about being careful not to compare apples with oranges. USA has a federal govt. Federalism is an incompatible system because Somalia is too homogeneous and the small size of Somalia means its geography does not necessitate federation. Moreover, the country is poor and cannot afford to run multiple levels of administration.

No need to look further to see how disastrous clan federation has been for Somalia.

Comparing Somalia to the US is a false equivalence , because it has a different population distribution, founded on different values, different history and a overall different Social-political and economic circumstance.


You should be able to look past your own Self-fish views and look at what is best for the Somali people.

One thing is certain revitalizing our endogenous heritage would not require more sacrifice or energy that the enterprise consists of adopting and imposing imported models.

 

[McLovin]

Federalism is an incompatible system because Somalia is too homogeneous and the small size of Somalia means its geography does not necessitate federation. Moreover, the country is poor and cannot afford to run multiple levels of administration.

Lol isnt homogeneity a good thing. The last thing youd want is ensuring equal sharing between different people groups. And im afraid i dont see the correlation between size and compatibility of federalism , Micronesia is federal. I understand the poverty argument but that can be easily reversed. Its only a matter of tapping into our plenty resources. Uranium and agriculture in the south, fisheries, crude oil and commerce in the North. Will provide more than enough capital to run administrations

No need to look further to see how disastrous clan federation has been for Somalia.

Ahh the all corrupting influence of clan, now combined with federalism. No. I am talking about a system where power and resources is divided strictly between the states and a federal level. Ofcourse adding clannism into the fray will bring incohesiveness and calcaal. Dont hear it from me hear it from the peoples mouth

"The most recent study carried out by HIPS, The Heritage Institute for Policy Studies in Somalia has provided the government with an excessive amount of data from the Somali public, which would be best to consider for the future of the nation. A survey was carried out in the 5 major cities of Mogadishu, Baioda, Kismayo, Garowe and Galkacyo. A majority those who participated in the survey agreed on the fact that federalism was the most suitable form of governance but criticised the current formation of administrations as deeply flawed due to the fact that it is seen as an externally facilitated scheme that promotes clan identity at the expense of citizenship"
http://www.heritageinstitute.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/HIPS-Briefing-Federal-Somalia-ENG-3.pdt

If the path of clan federalism is taken by the government, then federalism in Somalia will never work due to consistent clashing and feuds. Despite that, federalism could work in Somalia although it is a complex and multi-layered governance style, with social reconciliation as a crucial part of healing the past wounds from the civil war and onward.

 

[McLovin]

You should be able to look past your own Self-fish views and look at what is best for the Somali people.

One thing is certain revitalizing our endogenous heritage would not require more sacrifice or energy that the enterprise consists of adopting and imposing imported models.

Do you have any better/concrete system to propose? If so id love to hear it