Which is more ludicrous

[McLovin]

Ethiopian monarchy claiming decent from the mythical figures Solomon and Sheba

Or

Somalis believing they are an offshoot of Qureshi tribes from Arabia.

It seems both have an affinity for grandiose origin stories

 

[The_Cosmos]

Ethiopian monarchy claiming decent from the mythical figures Solomon and Sheba

Or

Somalis believing they are an offshoot of Qureshi tribes from Arabia.

It seems both have an affinity for grandiose origin stories

I think the Ethiopians have to be worse, however, Somalis believing they're decedents of some Qureshi tribesmen is truly ludicrous.

 

[McLovin]

One must ask why somalis continue to kill and discrimate eachother over such unfounded myths handed down. Have they been around so long that theyve become fact?

 

[The_Cosmos]

One must ask why somalis continue to kill and discrimate eachother over such unfounded myths handed down. Have they been around so long that theyve become fact?

That's the problem with many people in general. They honestly think that repeating a lie often and long enough will somehow transform it into truth.

There is literally zero evidence to link any Somali tribe to the Arabian peninsula and much more evidence suggesting Somalis might've originated in the southern highlands of Ethiopia who migrated to what is today north Somalia and then, due to their nomadic nature, moved southwards most likely looking for water as nomads do.

 

[Mudug-Madman]

One must ask why somalis continue to kill and discrimate eachother over such unfounded myths handed down. Have they been around so long that theyve become fact?

Well, the clans would exist anyway, so it's not really the founding myths that are the problem. If we were Christian, we would do the same as the Ethiopians and claim descent from prominent biblical figures. If we were Buddhist, we'd somehow claim descent from the Buddha himself, lol. Regardless of the story, you'd still have different clans and the conflict that comes with them.

 

[McLovin]

Surely destroying the myth will do some kind of damage to the institution of clannism. Atleast people will take it less seriously when it's relegated to cultural status. Europe too was very clannish at one point but they recognised the strength in uniting behind the nation instead of the tribe

 

[Dhabaal]

A creation myth (or creation story) is a cultural, traditional or religious myth. Creation myths are the most common form of myth, usually developing first in oral traditions, and are found throughout human culture.

1) Creation myths exist in every society. Even Romans had myths about them coming from Hebrews and other religious figures. Ours is we descend from the Prophet, for Chinese and Tibetians claim descent from Buddha, for Japanese it's descend from two deities Izanagi and Izanami from their Shintoist religion.

Most creation myths have religious roots, but however are irrelevant.

For example

Despite the fact that numerous Somalis attempts to trace their genealogy to the prophet, or to his lineage, this aspect of their genealogy has little practical or political importance. In traditional Somali culture it is important for each child to learn his genealogy up to the level of clan family,beyond that no real significance emerges.

https://books.google.ca/books?id=LR8A4tEYZUAC&pg=PA51&lpg=PA51&dq=Because+in+the+traditional+Somali+culture+it+is+important+for+each+child+to+learn+their+genealogy+up+to+the+level+of+clan+family,&source=bl&ots=A4wrf3hc7_&sig=ecGXIso_81f5gsNa6tMJEuhynhM&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiDoqS94vrPAhUn54MKHRj0BGUQ6AEIHDAA#v=onepage&q=Because in the traditional Somali culture it is important for each child to learn their genealogy up to the level of clan family,&f=false


In short the myth itself had no part in the Somali identity formation or clan structure. Tomorrow i could just as easily say darood ,hawiye and isaaq descend from Somali saints in mainland Somalia and that would be just as accepted, because thats how pratical & politically unimportant this part of the genealogy is.


2) Somali clans are not founded on myths, they are a by-product of pastoral nomadic lifestyle and a cultural construction of the Somali people.

We have a common Somali phrase called'' Tol waa tolane'' (Clan is something joined together). Historically there have always been fusion and fission of clans. In the past seperate clans would come together fuse into one. The frequent formation of new clan identities or units , while older ones disappeared.

Thus Somali clan structure is not based on blood relationship but rather it's a simple by-product of the Somali pastorial nomadic lifestyle. The necessity of defense , and the movement to new territory necessitated by a constant search for pasture and water have resulted over time in the formation of new alliances and, later new clan identities.

https://books.google.ca/books?id=XpdAzRYruCwC&pg=PA122&dq=tol+waa+tolane&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjC3c6T4frPAhUn34MKHccqAaUQ6AEILjAD#v=onepage&q=tol waa tolane&f=false

 

[Mudug-Madman]

Surely destroying the myth will do some kind of damage to the institution of clannism. Atleast people will take it less seriously when it's relegated to cultural status. Europe too was very clannish at one point but they recognised the strength in uniting behind the nation instead of the tribe

It would definitely help. But people aren't clannish because of what Sheikh Isaaq, Darod or Saamale did or who they were. They don't care, really. They're clannish due to more recent events that inflamed clan tensions. In order to end qabil hatred once and for all, there must be serious attempts to address those events honestly and work toward reconciliation. Rwanda can serve as a positive example in this regard.

 

[Dhabaal]

It is important to understand Somalis are not in conflict because of Qabilism.

What is happening in Somalia is purely a conflict in securing material benefits. (Land/Territory,Resources and Political representation). These widespread grievances came about due to the imposition of incompatible structures and the constant adherence to western and non-Somali values & political ideologies.

People find it easier to blame ''Clan'' as every Somali is a member of one, than to dvelve into the complexities of Somali problems.

Sure clan hate narratives exist and it is even present on this forum. But that is generally not the root problem but a symptom of a lack reconciliation.

I can explain deeper but i have to go now so i will pick this up later. K!

 

[NoName]

But that is generally not the root problem but a symptom of a lack reconciliation.

The greatest obstacle to reconciliation is tribalism. Nin kaad doonto ugey.

 

[McLovin]

It would definitely help. But people aren't clannish because of what Sheikh Isaaq, Darod or Saamale did or who they were. They don't care, really. They're clannish due to more recent events that inflamed clan tensions. In order to end qabil hatred once and for all, there must be serious attempts to address those events honestly and work toward reconciliation. Rwanda can serve as a positive example in this regard.

Definitely reconciliation is a priority. And once it is established I'd argue to eradicate tribalism by making discussing it a punishable offence to any parent caught teaching it. I don't care if it's part of our culture it's a part we can do without

If conversations get boring without clan bashing then thats something people will have to get over from

 

[Mudug-Madman]

Definitely reconciliation is a priority. And once it is established I'd argue to eradicate tribalism by making discussing it a punishable offence to any parent caught teaching it. I don't care if it's part of our culture it's a part we can do without

If conversations get boring without clan bashing then thats something people will have to get over from

You'll hear no complaints from me. Although knowing Somali people, they'll find a way around it. Like going by region or area instead of qabil. So instead of saying "You can't trust MJs, they're very sneaky." they'll say "You can't trust people whose ancestry is from Mudug, Bari and Nugaal, they're all very sneaky." Back to square one. :siilaanyolaugh:

 

[McLovin]

You'll hear no complaints from me. Although knowing Somali people, they'll find a way around it. Like going by region or area instead of qabil. So instead of saying "You can't trust MJs, they're very sneaky." they'll say "You can't trust people whose ancestry is from Mudug, Bari and Nugaal, they're all very sneaky." Back to square one. :siilaanyolaugh:

Regionalism is not so bad actually. Germany has a lot of regionalism, granted it used to be violent but today it's mostly used as an identity and for friendly competition between eachother.

Somalis should follow suit I think. Beef it out in football tournies instead of the streets

 

[Mudug-Madman]

Regionalism is not so bad actually. Germany has a lot of regionalism, granted it used to be violent but today it's mostly used as an identity and for friendly competition between eachother.

Somalis should follow suit I think. Beef it out in football tournies instead of the streets

Somali football ultras

 

[cocteau]

both make me

 

[McLovin]

both make me

Idk if thats a normal reaction. But i understand where u are coming from

 

[Bahal]

Surely destroying the myth will do some kind of damage to the institution of clannism. Atleast people will take it less seriously when it's relegated to cultural status. Europe too was very clannish at one point but they recognised the strength in uniting behind the nation instead of the tribe

Just look at Somalispot.

We know they're myths but that ain't stopping no one

 

[Prince of Lasanod]

One must ask why somalis continue to kill and discrimate eachother over such unfounded myths handed down. Have they been around so long that theyve become fact?

Somalis don't kill each other based on the fact they believe they are "descended from a Quraysh tribe". What type of non sense is this?

 

[McLovin]

Somalis don't kill each other based on the fact they believe they are "descended from a Quraysh tribe". What type of non sense is this?

Are you being wilfully obtuse? They are killing each other along clan lines that happen to trace their origin to a tribe in Arabia

Edit: Maybe the killing is not so heavy like it used to be but uknow what i mean. They dont trust each other

 

[Dhabaal]

The greatest obstacle to reconciliation is tribalism. Nin kaad doonto ugey.

If by ''Tribalism'' you mean ''Clan hate narratives''. Then what you are saying make no sense. It would be like saying the blood prevents you from healing the wound.

I will give you a short analogy to further illustrate my point.

Say you take a knife and you cut yourselves with it. What would you do?

A) Close the wound or heal the scarring?

B) Curse or focus on the blood coming out of the wound?

The logical answer is to heal the wound and you will consequently stop the bleeding. You wouldn't blame the blood flowing from the wound?because the blood itself is just the symptom and the open-wound is the root.

Similarly clan hate narratives is just a symptom and the root is lack of reconciliation. Reconciliation is necessary as it deflates hateful narratives that sustains inter-clan distrust and enmity. It opens a new page for negotiating the terms of social contract that will allow for co-existence.


The greatest obstacle for reconciliation is to deny Somali people self-determination.