What's wrong with Isis from an Islamic viewpoint?

[Axmed Xaji]

They use clear Quran verses and ahadith to justify what they are doing and from an Islamic view point, their actions ARE justifiable. Executing prisoners is justified, killing Christians who refuse to pay the jizya is justified, taking what your right hand possesses (sex slaves) is justified, executing apostates and "moderate" Muslims is justified and the list goes on and on.

My question to you is: how can you say these guys are unislamic or wrong without you yourself being wrong and unIslamic? In other words, who are you to judge them by 21st century norms and condemn their actions which are easily justifiable in Islam? Either you're going to agree with their justified actions or you are not Muslim (or a hypocrite at best).

I understand that Muslims can interpret Islam to make it compatible with 21st century norms. This is not to condemn Muslims in general. I'm just trying to point out this elephant in the room.

 

[Lord Flacko]

 

[Axmed Xaji]

View attachment 22085

The FBI is not concerned about people complaining about Muslim views on ISIS. I think you misunderstood what the FBI is all about. I'm challenging Muslims (like you) about ISIS (which is very Islamic). That's in the interest of national security, not a threat to it, dumbass. A triggered Muslim (you) IS a threat to national security and should be reported. Actually, by reporting me, you just gave YOUR IP address to the FBI. They can now follow your activity on the internet. Brilliant!

 

[Jeesto]

"There's no GOD but God and Mohammed the rapist" You serious?
You can be an athiest but atleast be one with class and respect

 

[Axmed Xaji]

"There's no GOD but God and Mohammed the rapist" You serious?
You can be an athiest but atleast be one with class and respect

You should complain about the guy reporting ME to the FBI. He's trying to put me in legal jeopardy because he's triggered. Then we'll have a conversation.

 

[fox]

Clearly a bait thread share your views in public please you little rat

 

[Axmed Xaji]

Clearly a bait thread share your views in public please you little rat

My views are clear and publicly shared. A bait? Are you unsure whether you're ok with ISIS or not? I'm not sure asking the question is the problem. The fact that you think it's a trap is the problem. I'm not a rat because I'm not on your side to begin with. I'm a human askng a logical question and you're someone who's conflicted about the most basic things.

 

[Simodi]

Horta why is it that Somali Atheists try so hard to get attention from us?

Is it a guilt complex or something? Why are they over-compensating? Are thy trying to justify their exit by trying to convince themselves of something?

Dude, nobody cares if your Atheist or not. Live your life. Nobody cares.

 

[Lord Flacko]

My views are clear and publicly shared. A bait? Are you unsure whether you're ok with ISIS or not? I'm not sure asking the question is the problem. The fact that you think it's a trap is the problem. I'm not a rat because I'm not on your side to begin with. I'm a human askng a logical question and you're someone who's conflicted about the most basic things.

You're probably the millionth reddit-educated teenager who believes he's found the ultimate arguement to 'show those stupid muzzies just how stupid they are!'

You're question isn't a question at all. It's a trap that you conjured up thinking it's genius.

My question to you is: how can you say these guys are unislamic or wrong without you yourself being wrong and unIslamic? In other words, who are you to judge them by 21st century norms and condemn their actions which are easily justifiable in Islam? Either you're going to agree with their justified actions or you are not Muslim (or a hypocrite at best).

I understand that Muslims can interpret Islam to make it compatible with 21st century norms. This is not to condemn Muslims in general. I'm just trying to point out this elephant in the room.

You see that part? Nothing we say will change your mind or affect you in any way. You've already set up the only allowed answers to your own question, and anybody who gives a different one will be branded as "a hypocrite" by you. So why bother taking you seriously?

Get out of here with your arrogant act. Next time ask a better question or steal one from whatever "the ****** atheist" youtube channel you watch

 

[Simodi]

They use clear Quran verses and ahadith to justify what they are doing and from an Islamic view point, their actions ARE justifiable. Executing prisoners is justified, killing Christians who refuse to pay the jizya is justified, taking what your right hand possesses (sex slaves) is justified, executing apostates and "moderate" Muslims is justified and the list goes on and on.

My question to you is: how can you say these guys are unislamic or wrong without you yourself being wrong and unIslamic? In other words, who are you to judge them by 21st century norms and condemn their actions which are easily justifiable in Islam? Either you're going to agree with their justified actions or you are not Muslim (or a hypocrite at best).

I understand that Muslims can interpret Islam to make it compatible with 21st century norms. This is not to condemn Muslims in general. I'm just trying to point out this elephant in the room.

Your a fool.

Raw text of any scripture is dependent solely on the interpretation of the classical scholars of that field. I wouldn't dare pick up a book on how to conduct brain surgery and partake in operating on a brain. Same rules apply.

Th reason why I say ISIS is UN-ISLAMIC is for many reasons:

1) They have no Islamic legitimacy from any tradition based Islamic school nor are they well versed in Islamic scholarship (they dont have even one scholar that is recognised in the Islamic World.)

2) Most of the verses of the Qur'an they quote has it's context, there is an entire science known as (Asbaab ul Nuzool) meaning reasons for revelation. Most of the classical verses they use to justify their deeds is based on battles fought during the lifetime of the Prophet (SAW) himself. Surah At Tawbah was revealed about the breaking of the Treaty of Hudaybiyah by the Makkans. Surah al Imran was dealing with the Battle of Uhud, Surah al Anfal was dealing with the Battle of Badr. Surah al Ahzab was dealing with the Battle of the Confederates. All of those verses that ISIS use for their violence is cherry picked from these verses that have a clear historical context to it.

3) ISIS's worst enemy are the Muslims themselves. They have killed quadruple time more Muslims than they have killed non-Muslims. Surely a legitimate group representing Islam wouldn't be killing Muslims en masse.

4) ISIS, Al Qaeda, Al Shabab and al these groups sprung from the aftermath of what was created and funded by the CIA and the American government in their Cold War against the Soviet Union. These groups are solely placed there to completely destabilise the Muslim countries. These groups was used to destroy Syria, Libya, Iraq, Somalia, Afghanistan and many other Muslim countries.

Do you want me to go on?

 

[Axmed Xaji]

You're probably the millionth reddit-educated teenager who believes he's found the ultimate arguement to 'show those stupid muzzies just how stupid they are!'

You're question isn't a question at all. It's a trap that you conjured up thinking it's genius.


You see that part? Nothing we say will change your mind or affect you in any way. You've already set up the only allowed answers to your own question, and anybody who gives a different one will be branded as "a hypocrite" by you. So why bother taking you seriously?

Get out of here with your arrogant act. Next time ask a better question or steal one from whatever "the ****** atheist" youtube channel you watch

You see that part? Nothing we say will change your mind or affect you in any way. You've already set up the only allowed answers to your own question, and anybody who gives a different one will be branded as "a hypocrite" by you. So why bother taking you seriously?

I'm serious about this question. You're lashing out because you are struggling with the answer. I shouldn't have put the either-or sentence in there, so ignore it. And why on earth did you report me to the FBI lol?

 

[Axmed Xaji]

1) They have no Islamic legitimacy from any tradition based Islamic school nor are they well versed in Islamic scholarship (they dont have even one scholar that is recognised in the Islamic World.)

Ok, I get your point. However, the scriptures are clear and in no part do they say to consult with ullema. And they DO have people who are well educated in Islam. Abu Bakr Al Baghdadi is a real Muslim scholar. He went to a real Muslim university and studied sharia for years. Because you don't like him (which is a good thing), doesn't mean he's unislamic

 

[Axmed Xaji]

2) Most of the verses of the Qur'an they quote has it's context, there is an entire science known as (Asbaab ul Nuzool) meaning reasons for revelation. Most of the classical verses they use to justify their deeds is based on battles fought during the lifetime of the Prophet (SAW) himself. Surah At Tawbah was revealed about the breaking of the Treaty of Hudaybiyah by the Makkans. Surah al Imran was dealing with the Battle of Uhud, Surah al Anfal was dealing with the Battle of Badr. Surah al Ahzab was dealing with the Battle of the Confederates. All of those verses that ISIS use for their violence is cherry picked from these verses that have a clear historical context to it.

You are the first person to say Quran verses have historical context. ISIS will tell you (perhaps correctly) that those verses are appropriate for the current context: for example they view the Saudis as munafiquun for allowing non-Muslim soldiers on their land and handing over their resources to westerners. There is plenty of context today for those verses to apply.

 

[Axmed Xaji]

3) ISIS's worst enemy are the Muslims themselves. They have killed quadruple time more Muslims than they have killed non-Muslims. Surely a legitimate group representing Islam wouldn't be killing Muslims en masse.

They claim (reasonably from an Islamic standpoint) that these Muslims are hypocrites. They kill Shias who they call rafida and are commanded to slaughter. The Sunnis they kill are government-related people who make alliances with the kufars (prohibited and punishable by death). These crimes are horrendous but they do have something to fall back on. If you want to the Quran and hadith passages about making friends with the unbelievers, let me know.

 

[Simodi]

Ok, I get your point. However, the scriptures are clear and in no part do they say to consult with ullema. And they DO have people who are well educated in Islam. Abu Bakr Al Baghdadi is a real Muslim scholar. He went to a real Muslim university and studied sharia for years. Because you don't like him (which is a good thing), doesn't mean he's unislamic

Ofcourse the scriptures say, consult with the Ulama. Should I quote you the verse?

And We sent not before you except men to whom We revealed [Our message]. So ask the people of the message if you do not know. (16:43)


But none will understand them except those who have knowledge. [al-‘Ankaboot 29:43]


That's your first strike.

Abu Bakr Al Baghdadi has a mediocre Degree in Islamic Studies. That is NOT the required standard for Islamic scholarship. So , NO. Your wrong again.

 

[Simodi]

You are the first person to say Quran verses have historical context. ISIS will tell you (perhaps correctly) that those verses are appropriate for the current context: for example they view the Saudis as munafiquun for allowing non-Muslim soldiers on their land and handing over their resources to westerners. There is plenty of context today for those verses to apply.

I'm not the first person.

Here is a statement from the Prophet (SAW) himself alluding to scholarship.

1. The Prophet (SAW) himself, he said:


عَنْ عَبْدِ اللَّهِ بْنِ عَمْرِو بْنِ الْعَاصِ قَالَ قَالَ رَسُولُ اللَّهِ صَلَّى اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ إِنَّ اللَّهَ لَا يَقْبِضُ الْعِلْمَ انْتِزَاعًا يَنْتَزِعُهُ مِنْ الْعِبَادِ وَلَكِنْ يَقْبِضُ الْعِلْمَ بِقَبْضِ الْعُلَمَاءِ حَتَّى إِذَا لَمْ يُبْقِ عَالِمًا اتَّخَذَ النَّاسُ رُءُوسًا جُهَّالًا فَسُئِلُوا فَأَفْتَوْا بِغَيْرِ عِلْمٍ فَضَلُّوا وَأَضَلُّوا

Abdullah ibn Amr reported: The Messenger of Allah, peace and blessings be upon him, said, “Verily, Allah does not withhold knowledge by snatching it away from his servants, but rather he withholds knowledge by withholding scholars, until no scholar remains and people follow ignorant leaders. They are asked and they issue judgments without knowledge. Thus, they are astray and lead others astray.”

Source: Ṣaḥīḥ al-Bukhārī 100, Ṣaḥīḥ Muslim 2673.


Focus on the underlined.




2. Ibn Jarir al Tabari mentions the same thing in his Tafsir
3. Al Baydhawi says the same in his Explanation of the Qur'an.
4 Al Qurtubi says the same in his book Al Ahkam.
5. Ar Razi says the same in his Corpus
6. As Suyuti says the same in his Tafsir.


Secondly, there are MANY legitimate scholars who have described and written books on the topic of hypocrisy in Islam. I suggest you go home and read a book called: Al Kabaair by Adh Dhahabi, also read Mukhtasar Minhaj Qasideen by Ibn Qudamah and Ihyaa 'Uloom Deen by Ghazali.

Ohh wait, you dont speak Arabic, right? All your information is in English?
I could see why you could get easily duped


Should I continue?

 

[Simodi]

They claim (reasonably from an Islamic standpoint) that these Muslims are hypocrites. They kill Shias who they call rafida and are commanded to slaughter. The Sunnis they kill are government-related people who make alliances with the kufars (prohibited and punishable by death). These crimes are horrendous but they do have something to fall back on. If you want to the Quran and hadith passages about making friends with the unbelievers, let me know.

I know all the verses you want to quote to justify your position. If you quote it, I will easily refute it God Willing. So if you do, thats fine.

Everything you've said in this segment is pure interpretation (of ISIS mainly), the dynamics of Nifaq in Islam is greater than that. Pick up a classical book and put down Frontpagemag and other non Muslim websites that messed with your miskiin head. Go ahead and quote those verses so we can deal with them one by one

 

[Axmed Xaji]

Ofcourse the scriptures say, consult with the Ulama. Should I quote you the verse?

And We sent not before you except men to whom We revealed [Our message]. So ask the people of the message if you do not know. (16:43)


But none will understand them except those who have knowledge. [al-‘Ankaboot 29:43]


That's your first strike.

Abu Bakr Al Baghdadi has a mediocre Degree in Islamic Studies. That is NOT the required standard for Islamic scholarship. So , NO. Your wrong again.

Ok, but no one has a monopoly on "knowledge". If I study the Quran and hadith and do as they say, I'm knowledgeable about the Quran and hadith. I'm knowledgeable of the "message". As for Abu Bakr Al B, his degree is only mediocre according to you. There is no "required standard for Islamic scholarship". There certainly isn't a required standard set by god: the stuff is plain and clear. Read it and follow it.

 

[Simodi]

Ok, but no one has a monopoly on "knowledge". If I study the Quran and hadith and do as they say, I'm knowledgeable about the Quran and hadith. I'm knowledgeable of the "message". As for Abu Bakr Al B, his degree is only mediocre according to you. There is no "required standard for Islamic scholarship". There certainly isn't a required standard set by god: the stuff is plain and clear. Read it and follow it.

Nope. your wrong again. There are schools, authorities, institutions and scholarly bodies that determine whether someone has reached a level of scholarship or not. These are the paramount features. An example would be the Muslim World League Scholars, Fiqh Council of Europe etc.

There is not ONE scholarly body that has endorsed Abu Bakr al Baghdadi. Only you.

Also, not mentioning the institutions of Fatwa that determines whether or not one can issue a religious verdict.

I just quoted you the VERSE. Are you blind? I also quoted you the references of all the scholars who make contradictory claims to what you have purported.

Are you that stupid?

So your wrong again, unfortunately.

 

[Axmed Xaji]

I know all the verses you want to quote to justify your position. If you quote it, I will easily refute it God Willing. So if you do, thats fine.

Everything you've said in this segment is pure interpretation (of ISIS mainly), the dynamics of Nifaq in Islam is greater than that. Pick up a classical book and put down Frontpagemag and other non Muslim websites that messed with your miskiin head. Go ahead and quote those verses so we can deal with them one by one

Again, I understand that it's all about interpretation. I'm just troubled that a plain interpretation (without checking with scholars) leads to ISIS and people like them. Also, can you not see that scholars have a political agenda (to defend Islam and make it acceptable to people like me?)