The three faces of Puntland

[Itsnotthateasy]

Stop me if I'm being obvious but what the hell is Puntland?

If you read these articles from the Puntland constitution you get the idea that it could be three things.

1) A federal member state of a Federal Somalia. This is the face Puntland shows the world.

2) A secessionist state. If things don't go to plan Puntland can secede as per article 4 clause 4.

3) A successor state to Somalia. If things go really well Puntland incorporates all Somali territorities within it becoming the new Somali state with its capital city in Garowe. You get a gist of this from Article 1 & 7. Territory can be gained but not ceded and Puntland aim to extends it's governance objectives to all Somalis.

 

[𐒋𐒖𐒆𐒔𐒖𐒕𐒈]

These are carefully drafted legal documents, by sharp minds, intended for mature politicking in its native habitat. In other words, not for you!

 

[New World]

How many posts are you going to make about puntland?

 

[Itsnotthateasy]

How many posts are you going to make about puntland?

Why don't you stick to the topic of the post instead of derailing?

 

[Itsnotthateasy]

These are carefully drafted legal documents, by sharp minds, intended for mature politicking in its native habitat. In other words, not for you!

Many on this forum are educated enough to take a look at it and try to dissect the aim of the Puntland project.

In my view, Puntland is a competing project rather than a Federal member state. This is why Puntland is always in tension with the FGS. When the FGS makes progress, Puntland withdraws.

It's also why the FGS would prefer to fund Somaliland and not Puntland. Somaliland is a sincere and self-limiting political project based on self-determination and colonial borders whereas Puntland is expansionary in terms of territitory and ideology.

 

[Avalanche]

Flip flop state is what I call it. it wants the advantage of both being recognized with Somalia and being a autonomous entity like Somaliland. It just doesnt make any sense

 

[Itsnotthateasy]

Flip flop state is what I call it. it wants the advantage of both being recognized with Somalia and being a autonomous entity like Somaliland. It just doesnt make any sense

It does make sense when you look at the third posture. It's expansion posture.

Puntland was designed to takeover Somalia. It's competing with the FGS while being a part of it.

Puntland is a political coup.

 

[Avalanche]

It does make sense when you look at the third posture. It's expansion posture.

Puntland was designed to takeover Somalia. It's competing with the FGS while being a part of it.

Puntland is a political coup.

Power will always be in Mogadishu whether you like it or not. No country in the world will ever see Puntland as an option for power play. There is no endgame, which many do not see. They will constantly go back and forth. Puntland acts more as a roadblock than an example.

 

[Juke]

Flip flop state is what I call it. it wants the advantage of both being recognized with Somalia and being a autonomous entity like Somaliland. It just doesnt make any sense

"In a unitary country, the power and sovereignty belongs to the national government, which might transfer some of it to territorial units. In a federal country, the power and sovereignty is constitutionally divided and shared between the national (federal) government and units (states)."

 

[𐒁𐒚𐒒𐒂𐒘𐒂𐒗 𐒎𐒚𐒗𐒗𐒒]

"In a unitary country, the power and sovereignty belongs to the national government, which might transfer some of it to territorial units. In a federal country, the power and sovereignty is constitutionally divided and shared between the national (federal) government and units (states)."

And these people's elders and leaders agreed on the federal system. They should have said no in 2006, instead of wasting our time and money, and we could have used that, to prepare for independence.

I place all blame at the feet of our people, who are obsessed with this charade called Somalia.

 

[Avalanche]

"In a unitary country, the power and sovereignty belongs to the national government, which might transfer some of it to territorial units. In a federal country, the power and sovereignty is constitutionally divided and shared between the national (federal) government and units (states)."

The federal laws and any concerns about the country's sovereignty always go only through the country's parliament. When Biden makes new laws, he doesn't go to Texas and ask them what they think. You pass laws through parliament.

 

[Itsnotthateasy]

And these people's elders and leaders agreed on the federal system. They should have said no in 2006, instead of wasting our time and money, and we could have used that, to prepare for independence.

I place all blame at the feet of our people, who are obsessed with this charade called Somalia.

Puntland right now is an independent state.

If you look at the constitution until Puntland ratifies a Federal constitution and has a referendum, Its status is that of an Independent State.

 

[Itsnotthateasy]

The federal laws and any concerns about the country's sovereignty always go only through the country's parliament. When Biden makes new laws, he doesn't go to Texas and ask them what they think. You pass laws through parliament.

The US constitution lays out powers of the federal government called enumerated powers. They include the power to regulate business, coin currency, take on debt, raise a navy etc. They also contain the power to make laws to carry out these powers. So congress doesn't have to go to the states to get their opinons.

In the United States, the powers of the federal government are laid out in the US constitution and they are listed.

All other powers go to the states and the people according to the tenth ammendment.

Now compare Puntland's case:

In the US, all powers are determined by the US constitution whether they belong to the Federal government or to the states.

In Puntland, all powers belong to Puntland state unless they are ceded to the Federal government. Also this clause seems to suggest that the Puntland constitution and the Federal constitution are on an equal footing.

--------------

In conclusion not a lawyer but this looks very strange.

 

[NOT-ACTIVE]

The US constitution lays out powers of the federal government called enumerated powers. They include the power to regulate business, coin currency, take on debt, raise a navy etc. They also contain the power to make laws to carry out these powers. So congress doesn't have to go to the states to get their opinons.

View attachment 323109


In the United States, the powers of the federal government are laid out in the US constitution and they are listed.

All other powers go to the states and the people according to the tenth ammendment.

View attachment 323110



Now compare Puntland's case:

View attachment 323112


In the US, all powers are determined by the US constitution whether they belong to the Federal government or to the states.

In Puntland, all powers belong to Puntland state unless they are ceded to the Federal government. Also this clause seems to suggest that the Puntland constitution and the Federal constitution are on an equal footing.

--------------

In conclusion not a lawyer but this looks very strange.

Comparing Somalia to America is being disingenuous. There are institutions that act as checks and balances in America to protect the people from a corrupt federal government. Meanwhile Somalia wants to further centralize its government right after it was declared the most corrupt country on the planet. You are not arguing in good faith and you are only making this argument because you already disliked Puntland

 

[Avalanche]

Comparing Somalia to America is being disingenuous. There are institutions that act as checks and balances in America to protect the people from a corrupt federal government. Meanwhile Somalia wants to further centralize its government right after it was declared the most corrupt country on the planet. You are not arguing in good faith and you are only making this argument because you already disliked Puntland

Not really, Somalia ideal society is a federal country. What Somalia has today is NOT federalism. It is states with a greater degree of autonomy and a weak central government. It is not surprising that the FGS is taking steps to strengthen its connection with the whole nation with a common constitution where each state gets its own leadership.

 

[Itsnotthateasy]

Comparing Somalia to America is being disingenuous. There are institutions that act as checks and balances in America to protect the people from a corrupt federal government. Meanwhile Somalia wants to further centralize its government right after it was declared the most corrupt country on the planet. You are not arguing in good faith and you are only making this argument because you already disliked Puntland

The argument is interesting though.

If people engage in this kind of topic maybe we can all understand the politics a little better.

 

[𐒋𐒖𐒆𐒔𐒖𐒕𐒈]

Many on this forum are educated enough to take a look at it and try to dissect the aim of the Puntland project.

One can not devour Constitutional law and statues in passing. What is your understanding of dual federation?

In my view, Puntland is a competing project rather than a Federal member state. This is why Puntland is always in tension with the FGS. When the FGS makes progress, Puntland withdraws.

Why do you think that is?

It's also why the FGS would prefer to fund Somaliland and not Puntland. Somaliland is a sincere and self-limiting political project based on self-determination and colonial borders whereas Puntland is expansionary in terms of territitory and ideology.

There are many reasons, but let me offer two as to reasons SL gets funds:

a) It was agreed in 2018, when​

i) PL signed and agreed to have all funds channeled through the FGS for the sole reason of further advancing the legitimacy of the FGS.​

b) Not to alienate SL; do you want to make a guess as to who set that policy and precedence?​

The US constitution lays out powers of the federal government called enumerated powers. They include the power to regulate business, coin currency, take on debt, raise a navy etc. They also contain the power to make laws to carry out these powers. So congress doesn't have to go to the states to get their opinons.

View attachment 323109


In the United States, the powers of the federal government are laid out in the US constitution and they are listed.

All other powers go to the states and the people according to the tenth ammendment.

View attachment 323110



Now compare Puntland's case:

View attachment 323112


In the US, all powers are determined by the US constitution whether they belong to the Federal government or to the states.

In Puntland, all powers belong to Puntland state unless they are ceded to the Federal government. Also this clause seems to suggest that the Puntland constitution and the Federal constitution are on an equal footing.

--------------

In conclusion not a lawyer but this looks very strange.

You should study the Articles of Confederation, the 8 years preceding the US Federal government to better understand the confusion you seem to be expressing.

 

[NOT-ACTIVE]

Not really, Somalia ideal society is a federal country. What Somalia has today is NOT federalism. It is states with a greater degree of autonomy and a weak central government. It is not surprising that the FGS is taking steps to strengthen its connection with the whole nation with a common constitution where each state gets its own leadership.

Somalia is a federal country but the problem is you want to compare the FGS to the current American government without acknowledging the fact that it took the US over 200 years for it to get to where it is today. For example from 1789– 1933 the US had a weak federal government that only had the following powers

Historians call this period “Dual Federalism” Under dual federalism, these local and state governments had sole authority in determining how best to care for their citizens. Often this was due to the simple fact that the national government had not yet developed the institutions that could do so. The federal government mainly concerned itself with foreign affairs like war, trade, and agreements with foreign countries. Everything domestics was basically left up to the states to decide for themselves

This is what America was like for its first 144 years. The FMS today actually have LESS power than the US states had during this period. You guys are trying to skip over the process so we can be like America today. Do you think that is reasonable?

If you seriously want to learn about the history of how the US federal government evolved you can read about it in this link. This is where I got the screenshot from

2.4: Expanded Federal Government- The Stages of Federalism

socialsci.libretexts.org

 

[NOT-ACTIVE]

The argument is interesting though.

If people engage in this kind of topic maybe we can all understand the politics a little better.

I agree I think people misunderstand what federalism and they don’t understand America’s history. They don’t realize the American government we see today came after 200+ years of development. They want to emulate the current US government while wanting to skip over all the steps it took to get there. Of course I’m not saying we have to replicate every step the US took, but we should have an honest understanding of how the US got to where it is so we can see what we need to do to arrive at a similar point. Look at my last comment and you can see a better explanation of what I mean

 

[Itsnotthateasy]

One can not devour Constitutional law and statues in passing. What is your understanding of dual federation?

Why do you think that is?

There are many reasons, but let me offer two as to reasons SL gets funds:

a) It was agreed in 2018, when​

i) PL signed and agreed to have all funds channeled through the FGS for the sole reason of further advancing the legitimacy of the FGS.​

b) Not to alienate SL; do you want to make a guess as to who set that policy and precedence?​

You should study the Articles of Confederation, the 8 years preceding the US Federal government to better understand the confusion you seem to be expressing.

Thanks for joining us.

If one cannot devour constitutional law one can at least take a bite or two.

Let's start with the last point first.

The articles of Confederation. Interesting stuff.

Before the US constitution, the 13 states came together to create the United States of America. Each of the 13 states gave up certain powers to the confederate government retaining all others. This makes perfect sense to me. It also explains the source of powers in early US history before the constitution. The Puntland case is still strange for a couple reasons:


1) Puntland is alone. There is no other state coming together with Puntland.
2) Somalia already exists as a country. Puntland's constitution preempts some later negotiation with the central government without stipulating which powers it would give up.

The Articles of Confederation created the USA. Puntland's constitution creates an independent state within the state of Somalia. The Puntland state can also expand to all territorities and it also has it's own 'my way or the highway' and undefined vision of federalism.

How can you even negotiate with Puntland? It doesn't seem possible. No one knows what it wants.

I'll address the other points later on but I am beginning to understand the Somali malaise a whole lot better.