The "Shirazi" Settlement of East Africa

[Factz]

Not one single accessible link. Luling isn't in print and is not available on line. If you have a copy, post it. Frankly, I have so far seen no reason to believe her sources. If she says Himyar only traded with the Somali city states, she is clearly wrong.

You are a waste of time. I will not respond to anything else from you without an accessible link.

I've given you references. Use your brain to go to google books.

Himyar had no colonies in the Horn so stop your lies. I've given you Chinese sources stating that the Barbara city states the proto Somalis had kingdoms that claimed supremacy one another and that they were wealthy and powerful with self governance.

Doesn't sound to me like they were ever controlled.

 

[government]

My translation doesn't say Shia or Shiite. It says "rejectors". The Shiite was added in parentheses by the translator.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Shia_Islam

"From a political viewpoint the history of the Shia was in several stages. The first part was the emergence of the Shia, which starts after Muhammad's death in 632 and lasts until Battle of Karbala in 680. This part coincides with the Imamah of Ali, Hasan ibn Ali and Hussain. The second part is the differentiation and distinction of the Shia as a separate sect within the Muslim community, and the opposition of the Sunni caliphs. This part starts after the Battle of Karbala and lasts until the formation of the Shia states about 900. During this section Shi'ism divided into several branches. The third section is the period of Shia states. The first Shia state was the Idrisid dynasty (780–974) in Maghreb. Next was the Alavid dynasty (864–928) established in Mazandaran (Tabaristan), north of Iran. These dynasties were local, but they were followed by two great and powerful dynasties. The Fatimid Caliphate formed in Ifriqiya in 909, and ruled over varying areas of the Maghreb, Egypt and the Levant until 1171. The Buyid dynasty emerged in Daylaman, north of Iran, about 930 and then ruled over central and western parts of Iran and Iraq until 1048. In Yemen, Imams of various dynasties usually of the Zaidi sect established a theocratic political structure that survived from 897 until 1962."

There were Zaidis in Yemen and both Himyar and the Muzzaffars were in Mog. The definition of "Shirazi" seems to have included the whole north end of the Gulf.

My point still stands original text doesn't say anything about Shiite or rejectors and you didn't address the rest of my points when ibn Batuta clearly said that the land of the Berber starts from zaylc to mogdisho

 

[Grant]

My point still stands original text doesn't say anything about Shiite or rejectors and you didn't address the rest of my points when ibn Batuta clearly said that the land of the Berber starts from zaylc to mogdisho

I don't read Arabic, but have to assume my translator did. Do you have an available scholarly translation, not one of those blog bits?

I have no problem with Zayla to Mog and the Berbers. The northern clans form in the 12th-13th centuries. Batuta was in the area in 1331. Zayla was still a mixed population in Ahmed Gurey's time. Just because the coutryside was Berber doesn't mean they formed a majority in the coastal cities.

Did you read the early dates and inscriptions in the archaeology of Mogadishu that I gave above?

Ibn Batuta visited 42 years after the building of the great mosque in 1269.

 

[government]

I don't read Arabic, but have to assume my translator did. Do you have an available scholarly translation, not one of those blog bits?

I have no problem with Zayla to Mog and the Berbers. The northern clans form in the 12th-13th centuries. Batuta was in the area in 1331. Zayla was still a mixed population in Ahmed Gurey's time. Just because the coutryside was Berber doesn't mean they formed a majority in the coastal cities.

Did you read the early dates and inscriptions in the archaeology of Mogadishu that I gave above?

Yes I read them I haven't denied the Persian influences but I don't believe the papers conclusion that the shrazi people went to mogdisho and then moved to Zanzibar to be true the evedince is flimsy at best especially considering he only has found one mentioning of shirazi in mogadisho

 

[Shanshiyo1234]

Why are you lying for? He met the Somali Sultan who ruled the city and he referred to the inhabitants as Bilad Al-Barbar which was a medieval term to describe Somalis.

Please read carefully. Don’t call me liar dude. This was written by a Somali scholar. The book is called the “ The Arab Factor Somali History”.

 

[Grant]

Yes I read them I haven't denied the Persian influences but I don't believe the papers conclusion that the shrazi people went to mogdisho and then moved to Zanzibar to be true the evedince is flimsy at best especially considering he only has found one mentioning of shirazi in mogadisho

I think you need to go back and read the full paper. It was Oman in Zanzibar. The Shirazis were at Kilwa,

Note the suggested chronology:

 

[Factz]

I think you need to go back and read the full paper. It was Oman in Zanzibar. The Shirazis were at Kilwa,

Note the suggested chronology:

Kilwa Sultanate didn't even pass Kismayo. Look at this historical map from below.

It tells you Zanzibar Sultanate nor did the people you keep talking about never ruled the Somali coast. Southern Somalia was ruled by Somali kingdoms like Mogadishu Sultanate, Ajuran Empire, Geledi Sultanate and Hiraab Imamate.

@Grant @government check this authentic map below.

 

[Grant]

Yes I read them I haven't denied the Persian influences but I don't believe the papers conclusion that the shrazi people went to mogdisho and then moved to Zanzibar to be true the evedince is flimsy at best especially considering he only has found one mentioning of shirazi in mogadisho

This is Wiki:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shirazi_people

"There are two main theories about the origins of the Shirazi people. One thesis based on oral tradition states that immigrants from the Shiraz region in southwestern Iran directly settled various mainland ports and islands on the eastern Africa seaboard beginning in the tenth century, in an area between Mogadishu, Somalia in the north and Sofala in the south.[9][10] According to Irving Kaplan, prior to the 7th century, the coastal areas frequented by the Persian migrants were inhabited by non-Negroid Africans. By the time of the Persian settlement in the area, these earlier occupants had been displaced by incoming Bantu and Nilotic populations.[11] More people from different parts of the Persian Gulf also continued to migrate to the Swahili coast over several centuries thereafter, and these formed the modern Shirazi.[12]

The second theory on Shirazi origins posits that they came from Persia, but first settled on the Somalia littoral near Mogadishu.[9] In the twelfth century, as the gold trade with the distant entrepot of Sofala on the Mozambique seaboard grew, the settlers are then said to moved southwards to various coastal towns in Kenya, Tanzania, northern Mozambique and the Indian Ocean islands. By 1200 AD, they had established local sultanates and mercantile networks on the islands of Kilwa, Mafia and Comoros along the Swahili coast, and in northwestern Madagascar.[13][3][14][15][16]

Some academics have questioned the authenticity of the primarily Persian origin claim.[17][18] They point to the relative rarity of Persian customs and speech, lack of documentary evidence of Shia Islam in the Muslim literature on the Swahili Coast, and instead a historic abundance of Sunni Arab-related evidence.[19] These academics state that the evidence confirms mass migration to the African coast over the centuries from the Persian Gulf and Arabia, but Persian Gulf is much more than a Persian coast.[19] There are also several different versions of stories about the settlement of Shirazi along the Swahili Coast.[20] According to Ari Nave and Irving Kaplan, the Shirazi ethnic group is likely the result of "a combined African, Arab and Persian" elements.[2][11] Jack Drake indicates that through these intermarriages between Persian and Arab male settlers and local Bantu women, the offspring learned Persian and Arab terms related to culture, navigation merchandise, war, artisanal tools, products and travel, as well as Bantu agricultural and daily vocabulary."

Uh, No. The ONLY graves they found were identified as Persian. The "Shirazi" in Mog was said to be the only mention of the name found on the East African coast. He wasn't by himself.

 

[Factz]

View attachment 45450
Please read carefully. Don’t call me liar dude. This was written by a Somali scholar. The book is called the “ The Arab Factor Somali History”.

Those are fake. Somalis are a diverse people consisting of urban dwellers, farmers, nomads and coastal people.

Mogadishu was capital city of Ajuran Empire while other coastal provinces in southern Somalia were part of Ajuran Kingdom.

The Benadiri people were simply refugees or economic migrants that settled in Mogadishu with the local native Somalis.

"The late 15th and 17th centuries saw the arrival of Muslim families from Arabia, Persia, India and Spain to the Ajuran Sultanate, the majority of whom settled in the coastal provinces. Some migrated because of the instability in their respective regions, as was the case with the Hadhrami families from the Yemen and the Muslims from Spain fleeing the Inquisition.[48] Others came to conduct business or for religious purposes. Due to their strong tradition in religious learning, the new Muslim communities also enjoyed high status among the Somali ruling elite and commoners. It's believed the Benadiri people are the decedents of these people a tiny minority who inhabit the Benadir region."

Reference 1: Luling (2002), page 18.

Reference 2: Abdullahi, Mohamed Diriye (2001). Culture and Customs of Somalia. Greenwood Publishing Group. page. 10–11.

 

[MARAQ DIGAAG]

View attachment 45450
Please read carefully. Don’t call me liar dude. This was written by a Somali scholar. The book is called the “ The Arab Factor Somali History”.

This contradicts what you claimed in your first post which was Ibn Batuta stated Muqdisho was predominately Asian . On the contrary , your link above states that he said the ruler of Muqdisho was a Barbar. Your link also said that the Barbars also established Brava and Marka. Ibn Saids quote will have to be returned to at a later time .

 

[Shanshiyo1234]

This contradicts what you claimed in your first post which was Ibn Batuta stated Muqdisho was predominately Asian . On the contrary , your link above states that he said the ruler of Muqdisho was a Barbar. Your link also said that the Barbars also established Brava and Marka. Ibn Saids quote will have to be returned to at a later time .

When I said Asian I meant Arab wallahi.

 

[Grant]

This contradicts what you claimed in your first post which was Ibn Batuta stated Muqdisho was predominately Asian . On the contrary , your link above states that he said the ruler of Muqdisho was a Barbar. Your link also said that the Barbars also established Brava and Marka. Ibn Saids quote will have to be returned to at a later time .

There's nothng wrong with Ibn Said's quote. Merka was Biimaal before and after it was Hawiyya (Hadiya). Brava was likely established by the Tunni per tradition, but we all know about the Bravanese and the Qadiriya. The Biimaal were pastoralists who did not become traders until the 19th century.

"Among the towns of the Barbar was the seaport called Mogadishu whose inhabitants were all foreigners and not black"

That was before 1286. Sadly, Shanshiyo also does not believe in links.

 

[Shanshiyo1234]

There's nothng wrong with Ibn Said's quote. Merka was Biimaal before and after it was Hawiyya (Hadiya). Brava was likely established by the Tunni per tradition, but we all know about the Bravanese and the Qadiriya. The Biimaal were pastoralists who did not become traders until the 19th century.

"Among the towns of the Barbar was the seaport called Mogadishu whose inhabitants were all foreigners and not black"

That was before 1286. Sadly, Shanshiyo also does not believe in links.

I’m on mobile. Just google the book.

 

[Grant]

I’m on mobile. Just google the book.

 

[Grant]

Accordng to this, Fakr ad- Din and Abu Bakr, the founders of the Mogadishu Sultanate, came from Arabia !!!!!!!!!!

Read especially following page 85. This is on page 97:

Page 100:

Page 101:

 

[Factz]

Accordng to this, Fakr ad- Din and Abu Bakr, the founders of the Mogadishu Sultanate, came from Arabia !!!!!!!!!!

Read especially following page 85. This is on page 97:

Page 100:

Page 101:

This Somali guy is not even a historian but a metaphysicist so if I was you, I wouldn't take it so seriously.

 

[government]

View attachment 45450
Please read carefully. Don’t call me liar dude. This was written by a Somali scholar. The book is called the “ The Arab Factor Somali History”.

Bro this was never in ibn batutas book

 

[James Dahl]

The Shirazi colonization is mysterious primarily because the history is clearly mythological, seven brothers in seven ships sailing from al-Haasa and founding seven cities, but each story has a different list of seven cities and many of those cities existed before they were "founded" by the Shirazi.

The first of the seven brothers founded Mogadishu.

 

[MARAQ DIGAAG]

The Shirazi colonization is mysterious primarily because the history is clearly mythological, seven brothers in seven ships sailing from al-Haasa and founding seven cities, but each story has a different list of seven cities and many of those cities existed before they were "founded" by the Shirazi.

The first of the seven brothers founded Mogadishu.

This is a very long study with the Shirazi claims
http://psimg.jstor.org/fsi/img/pdf/t0/10.5555/al.ch.document.sip200016_final.pdf

 

[UpRightDown]

Arabs were nothing but barbaric nomads before Islam but with few coastal cities that traded across the Indian Ocean.

Azanians were a southern Cushitic people that dominated Southeast Africa. In fact, the Swahili coast and the ports were ruled by Azanians. The proto-Somalis ruled southern Somalia known as Barbara or Barbaroi people.

Somalis have been inhabiting since the 1st century after they expelled other Cushitic groups. Somalis in the 1st century migrated to southern Somalia and established farmlands in Jubba and Shebella valleys as well as establishing flourishing ports in the southern coast of Somalia. They migrated from the north which is their ancestoral homeland due to the heavy drought.

If you study the Somali city-states (Barbara region) then you'll know they were proto-Somalis that dominated the Somali peninsula with many wealthy ports. Proto-Somalis were reffered as Barbara or Barbaroi people ancestors of the modern day Somali people.

I am not defending Arabs tho but they were merchants, they traded with the Tamils, we have trade cities like Jeddah and Aden, because they sold spices to the Mediterranean like Judea and Egypt.

Yea, also got them Caano Geel people who know nothing (nomadic Arabs).