The "Shirazi" Settlement of East Africa

Discussion in 'Culture & History' started by Grant, May 16, 2018.

  1. Grant

    Grant

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    Shiraz has connections to the Sassanians and was the capital of Fars province in Iran after the Islamic conquest. In the early 13th century, Yakut regarded Mog as the frontier between Barbar and Zanj and it seems that the Swahili culture moved south from there. Contrary to claims made on Sspot in the past, Arabs and Shirazis converted the Comoros to Islam and established the gold trade at Sofala. The kings of Kilwa were a Shirazi royal house that gives the group it's name. Many of these immigrants arrived through Mog, but they were not ethnic Somalis. Those who stayed in Mog became Cadcads, etc.

    https://www.jstor.org/stable/180168?read-now=1&refreqid=excelsior:ebe58018cdf8c365ad122f4cafa14535&seq=11#page_scan_tab_contents

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    The old buildings in Mog are Shirazi, Yemeni and Omani. Ethnic Somalis don't get access to Mog after dark until the Yaquub Abgaal kill the Muddaffar governor about 1624. Yemen/Oman/Zanzibar continue to control the port when their ships are in, and Zanzibar sells out to the Italians. Ethnic Somalis only get control of the port after independence in 1960.

    http://www.wernerhermans.com/downloads/Ancient Arab settlements of the Swahili Coast.pdf

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  2. MARAQ DIGAAG

    MARAQ DIGAAG

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    Who lived in places like Muqdisho and Baraawe before the arrival of Arabs and Persians ?
     
  3. Factz

    Factz VIP

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    They only lived in Southeast Africa in the Swahili coast and they came during the 10th century after the Azanians were wiped out and mixed with the location Bantu population which founded the modern day Swahilis.

    Somali coast has always been settled by ethnic Somalis and ruled by ethnic Somalis from Somali city-states to medieval Sultanates to early modern Sultanates to modern day of Somalia.

    Mogadishu was never ruled by foreigners.

    Ancient Mogadishu (Sarapion) was part of the Somali city-states.

    Mogadishu Sultanate (9th to 13th century).

    Mogadishu was capital the of Ajuran Empire for (13th to 17th century).

    Mogadishu was capital the of Hiraab Imamate for (17th to early 20th century).

    Now Mogadishu is the capital of Somalia.
     
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  4. Factz

    Factz VIP

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    Mogadishu and Barawa has always been Somali cities so was Merca and Kismayo. In the ancient times they were part of the Somali city-states (Barbara civilization) an ancient terms to describe the proto-Somalis that lived on the land.

    In the medieval times they were ports of the Ajuran Empire.

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  5. MARAQ DIGAAG

    MARAQ DIGAAG

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    @ factz ,

    The question was posed to Grant . Thanks anyway !

    We know from archeological remains and linguistics that the Eastern Cushites most likely made their way to the Southern Horn extending from Southern Somalia .

    According to the oral history of Bravenese people , the city of Brawa was originally founded by the Tunni people . The ancestors of the Bravenese joined them from the Middle East .

    Since Muqdisho is even further north , I would imagine groups of early Somali founded the city after they had preciously conquered Southern Somalia form early hunter gatherer groups . The alternative theory is to hypothesis a few magical Arabs and Persian migrants landing on the coast and suddenly starting all these great cities from scratch . We know this not to be the case based on the ancient descriptions showing these cities existed before the Islamic era .

    These early Somali most likely spoke a variant of of what is today known as the Af Maya dialects .

    I also believe they may have been the rather tall Azanian people mentioned in the Greek text . Interestingly enough , in Somali folklore , Southern Somali and Northern Kenya were once said to have been dominated by a race of giants known as the Madanle . Such myths also existed in the oral tales of other neighbouring people . The Madanle , who were said to be agro-pastoralist folk , were also famous for their irrigation systems and have found their way into Somali genealogy .

    These people and probably other early Somali cushites were later absorbed by by Himyarites and later on Islamic migrants . Further down South , the Cushites of the coast were absorbed by incoming waves of Bantu migrants .
    This is the origins of the Zwahili culture ( Bantu plus Middle Eastern Plus Cushitic ).
     
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  6. Factz

    Factz VIP

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    Arabs were nothing but barbaric nomads before Islam but with few coastal cities that traded across the Indian Ocean.

    Azanians were a southern Cushitic people that dominated Southeast Africa. In fact, the Swahili coast and the ports were ruled by Azanians. The proto-Somalis ruled southern Somalia known as Barbara or Barbaroi people.

    Somalis have been inhabiting since the 1st century after they expelled other Cushitic groups. Somalis in the 1st century migrated to southern Somalia and established farmlands in Jubba and Shebella valleys as well as establishing flourishing ports in the southern coast of Somalia. They migrated from the north which is their ancestoral homeland due to the heavy drought.

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    If you study the Somali city-states (Barbara region) then you'll know they were proto-Somalis that dominated the Somali peninsula with many wealthy ports. Proto-Somalis were reffered as Barbara or Barbaroi people ancestors of the modern day Somali people.
     
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  7. MARAQ DIGAAG

    MARAQ DIGAAG

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    Ps . Nomadic Oromo and Somali people were feared in many of the coastal cities across the Zwahili states . This wasn’t to do with ethnicity per se , but rather to do with cultural divides between the settled urbanites and the nomads .

    The urban Somali played a role in the foundation of Baraawe. Remnants of the Garre are found in the Bajuni clans . Awales run through of the Muqdisho Reer Xamar DNA is showing that they have more Cushitic -Somali ancestry than we previously thought .

     
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  8. Grant

    Grant

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    That would have depended on the period.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mogadishu

    "Tradition and old records assert that southern Somalia, including the Mogadishu area, was inhabited very early by hunter-gatherers of Khoisan descent. Although most of these early inhabitants are believed to have been either overwhelmed, driven away or, in some cases, assimilated by later migrants to the area, physical traces of their occupation survive in certain ethnic minority groups inhabiting modern-day Jubaland and other parts of the south. The latter descendants include relict populations such as the Eile, Aweer, the Wa-Ribi, and especially the Wa-Boni.[8][9] By the time of the arrival of peoples from the Cushitic Rahanweyn (Digil and Mirifle) clan confederacy, who would go on to establish a local aristocracy, other Cushitic groups affiliated with the Oromo (Wardai) and Ajuuraan (Ma'adanle) had already formed settlements of their own in the sub-region.[8][9]"

    The Eyle have an archaeological record that goes back 11,000 years. The Aweer, Wa-Ribi and Wa-Boni may go back as far. The Tunni would have been part of the Rahanweyn migrations and come at a later date, but were likely in the area when the Shirazi arrived.
     
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  9. Grant

    Grant

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    Factsdiid,

    Read the links or not as you wish, but keep your continuing ignorant and unsupported comments out of this thread.
     
  10. government

    government زومالي و افتخر

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    Ibn batutas book refutes everything you said I'm usually with you grant but this is the literal definition of bending facts to fit your narrative btw this is jus one papers opinion and not the common consequences also the paper is focused on kilwa and they barely talk about mogdisho I bet that's the only quote about it in the whole book.
    Walahi I memorized your tactics get a punlished paper that proposes a new interpretation or idea for a something find where they mention Somalia and then copy and paste that bit and make it fit your narrative.
     
  11. Shanshiyo1234

    Shanshiyo1234

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    Did you actually read Ibn Battuta? He said there more Asian living Mogadishu then black Somalis! How do Somalis found a city then become the minority!?
     
  12. MARAQ DIGAAG

    MARAQ DIGAAG

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    The Barawani have noise levels of Hunter gatherer DNA. Moreover , hunter gatherers were not capable of the type of trade occurring in these cities before the Islamic era .The results of 40-50 Somali Cushitic DNA in Muqdisho CadCad show that they came to the horn and settled amongst Somali Cushites , the founders and traders of ancient places like Muqdisho and Barawa. The Shirazu and Arab element has been exaggerated further South in the Swahel states .
     
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  13. Grant

    Grant

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    You're going to have to do a lot better than that. Ibn Batua was on the East African coast in 1331. Himyar was there in the 1st Century AD, as recorded in the Periplus. According to Ibn Batuta:

    https://pieterderideaux.jimdo.com/6-contents-1301-1400/ibn-battuta-mogadishu/

    "Their land is a desert extending for two months' journey from Zayla to Maqdashaw (Mogadishu). Their beasts of burden are camels, and they possess sheep which are famous for their butter. The people are dark skinned and most people are rejecters (Shiite people who rejected the first three caliphs.)"

    This is a strong indication of Pesian/Gulf influence on the coast at the time.

    The Ajuraan and the Arabs/Persians were allies. The Hiraab only kill the Yemeni Governor of Mog and defeat the Ajuraan in 1624. It is at this point that the Yaquub Abgaal enter Mog, but also the point at which the Ya'rubi dynasty comes to power in Oman.

    https://antitribalism.wordpress.com...and-their-defeat-by-baadicadde-and-gaaljecel/

    THE OMANI SULTANATE IN ZANZIBAR AND EAST AFRICA – HISTORICAL, POLITICAL, ECONOMIC AND RELIGIOUS ASPECTS – Dr. Arye Oded

    .https://muslimsinafrica.wordpress.c...-economic-and-religious-aspects-dr-arye-oded/

    "In the mid-17th century, the Omanis drove the Portuguese out of the country and its important port of Muscat. This occurred during the Ya’rubi dynasty which came into power in 1624 and succeeded in uniting the country and turning it into a strong maritime power. The old, close historical connections between Oman and the East African coastal towns (4) were among the reasons that led the Omanis to fight the Portuguese, in order to drive them from the coast. The slave trade, in which the Omanis were involved, was another reason."

    "The deterioration of the Sultanate was also reflected in the gradual loss of its dominions. According to the Anglo-German agreement of 1886, the Sultan’s effective authority was limited to the islands of Zanzibar and Pemba and to a coastal strip ten-miles wide from the Horn of Africa in the north to the Rovuma river in the south. Within this area the Sultan nominated the Liwalis (Governors), Mudirs (district officers) and the Kadhis (religious judges). Most of them were Omani Arabs. In 1895, an important treaty was signed between the British and the Sultan dealing with all the Sultanate’s possessions on the mainland and the coastal strip, exclusive of Zanzibar and Pemba. According to the treaty, the administration of these areas would be entrusted to British officers who would have full powers of executive and judicial administration and control of public lands. In return, Britain would pay the Sultan’s government an annual sum of money. Another clause stipulated that the treaty “shall not affect the sovereignty of the Sultan in the above-mentioned territories” (11).
     
  14. government

    government زومالي و افتخر

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    No he didn't I read the whole thing stop lying
     
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  15. Factz

    Factz VIP

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    Why are you lying for? He met the Somali Sultan who ruled the city and he referred to the inhabitants as Bilad Al-Barbar which was a medieval term to describe Somalis.
     
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  16. government

    government زومالي و افتخر

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    The translation of ibn batutas book you've got is wrong the original book says shafcy not Shiite
    IMG_20180517_072311.png second of all Iran became shii in the 15th century so using that as a reason is flimsy at best. Also Ibn batuta says that the land of the Berber starts from zaylc and ends at mogdisho. IMG_20180517_072531.png
     
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  17. government

    government زومالي و افتخر

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    I can't believe I never looked into grants bullshit I always gave him the benefit of the doubt
     
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  18. Factz

    Factz VIP

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    1. Himyar only traded with the Somali city-states (Barbara region).

    2. Mogadishu was the capital fo Ajuran Empire. They had no foreigners there.

    In fact, the modern day Benadiri people are decedent of refugees or economical migrants who settled in Mogadishu and other coastal provinces of Ajuran Kingdom to help the Somali ports to flourish.

    "The late 15th and 17th centuries saw the arrival of Muslim families from Arabia, Persia, India and Spain to the Ajuran Sultanate, the majority of whom settled in the coastal provinces. Some migrated because of the instability in their respective regions, as was the case with the Hadhrami families from the Yemen and the Muslims from Spain fleeing the Inquisition.[48] Others came to conduct business or for religious purposes. Due to their strong tradition in religious learning, the new Muslim communities also enjoyed high status among the Somali ruling elite and commoners. It's believed the Benadiri people are the decedents of these people a tiny minority who inhabit the Benadir region."

    Reference 1: Luling (2002), page 18.

    Reference 2: Abdullahi, Mohamed Diriye (2001). Culture and Customs of Somalia. Greenwood Publishing Group. page. 10–11.

    3. The shirazi people only live on the Swahili coast and they came during the 9th and 10th century after mixing with the local Bantus and that's how Swahilis were birthed. They have nothing to do with southern Somalia so stop your revisionist.

    4. Al-Yaqubi a 9th century historian said Bilad Al-Barbar a medieval term to describe Somalis coast stretch from Zeila to ending port of Jubba river on the coast.

    5. For the last time. Omani Zanzibar Sultanate did NOT control Mogadishu. It was only nominal, they claimed it but never really controlled it. It was capital for Hiraab Imamate for couple centuries until Geledi Sultanate expansion took over Benadir coast and even controlled the entire Shabelle riverline while simultaneously controlling Jubba valley. At their height they controlled the Lamu coast and forced the Omanis to pay tribute and Geledi Sultanate showed themselves that they are the dominant force in East Africa.

    Is it ok if you stop using blogs and end your historical revisionist? I never see you ever talking positive about Somalis. All I see is a Somali hater lying about our history.

    @government @MARAQ DIGAAG Don't ever take this guy serious. He even said a Bantu Sultanate ruled Jubba valley when it was actually Geledi Sultanate. @nine was even shocked. :cryinglaughsmiley:
     
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  19. Grant

    Grant

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    My translation doesn't say Shia or Shiite. It says "rejectors". The Shiite was added in parentheses by the translator.


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Shia_Islam

    "From a political viewpoint the history of the Shia was in several stages. The first part was the emergence of the Shia, which starts after Muhammad's death in 632 and lasts until Battle of Karbala in 680. This part coincides with the Imamah of Ali, Hasan ibn Ali and Hussain. The second part is the differentiation and distinction of the Shia as a separate sect within the Muslim community, and the opposition of the Sunni caliphs. This part starts after the Battle of Karbala and lasts until the formation of the Shia states about 900. During this section Shi'ism divided into several branches. The third section is the period of Shia states. The first Shia state was the Idrisid dynasty (780–974) in Maghreb. Next was the Alavid dynasty (864–928) established in Mazandaran (Tabaristan), north of Iran. These dynasties were local, but they were followed by two great and powerful dynasties. The Fatimid Caliphate formed in Ifriqiya in 909, and ruled over varying areas of the Maghreb, Egypt and the Levant until 1171. The Buyid dynasty emerged in Daylaman, north of Iran, about 930 and then ruled over central and western parts of Iran and Iraq until 1048. In Yemen, Imams of various dynasties usually of the Zaidi sect established a theocratic political structure that survived from 897 until 1962."

    There were Zaidis in Yemen and both Himyar and the Muzzaffars were in Mog. The definition of "Shirazi" seems to have included the whole north end of the Gulf.
     
  20. Grant

    Grant

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    Not one single accessible link. Luling isn't in print and is not available on line. If you have a copy, post it. Frankly, I have so far seen no reason to believe her sources. If she says Himyar only traded with the Somali city states, she is clearly wrong.

    You are a waste of time. I will not respond to anything else from you without an accessible link.
     
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