The ruined stone towns of medieval Somaliland and the empire of Adal (ca. 1415–1577)

[Step a side]

@NidarNidar Hubat Kingdom was north east of Harar. Dir Dhabe is west of Harar. See Ugaas Sahal’s recent interview about Hobat. He knows the ins and outs of the region


@Barkhadle1520 just like New York, London etc Harar started off as a small irrelevant village. The exact time of the first human settlement is unknown but one thing is guaranteed, the place already had its 1st amiir’s by approximately 1000 AD.

 

[Barkhadle1520]

Diridhaba was built on top of its ruins. Hubat, like many of the other Islamic city-states, taxed local villages and profited from the trade. These sorts of locations are used multiple times,and more archaeological digs need to happen to get the full picture of the region.

Three of the mosques date back to the 10th century, according to UNESCO, something like Harar doesn't just pop out of nowhere, it's built on something older.

There is no continuity between those two just drop it bro

 

[Idilinaa]

I've only skimmed all this and will simply add a few key points and leave this be.


1) Afaan Oromo and the Soomaali languages are not in any way the same or mutually intelligible. They are totally distinct languages:

Af Maay, Tunni, Jiddu and the rest are like Portuguese would be to Spanish when relating to Af Maxaa whereas something like Oromo would be like English is to German. I'm actually being generous there as English and German boast a time divergence of about ~2,000 years whereas the Soomaali group and the Proto-Konsoromo group didn't share an ancestor until about ~3,000 years ago or a bit more.

The two languages share many cognates in terms of basic vocabulary, as do many East-Cushitic languages, but mutual intelligibility is basically non-existent. Not even the most advanced speaker of any of the Soomaali languages would ever grasp what an Oromoo speaker of any of the Oromoo dialects was saying unless they were in consistently close in terms of geographic proximity and essentially borderline bilingual. You'd maybe pick up on some words and be like "Oh!" from time to time at best if you listened very carefully or read the sentences but that's about it. Like an English speaker interacting with German or Norwegian.

2) To my knowledge, there are two "Barbarias" in the Periplus. One that is basically from Southeastern Egypt (near Berenice) down to around the Eritrean coast which corresponds to the northern half of the "Coastal Cushite" phenomenon; Bejas, Tigres (Ethiosemitized Bejas), Sahos and Afars. Then there's one that goes from the Babl al-Mandab seemingly until "Opone" (Xaafuun) and corresponds essentially with the Northern Somali coast and Somalis.

For whatever reason, it doesn't seem to me that the Greco-Romans included Koonfur within this term. But we know via linguistic study of the Soomaali languages historically down there, including Af-Maxaa, and via archaeology that it's plain that the only groups historically living there other than some native and now gone Hunter-Gatherers were the Soomaali speakers. Oromo speakers or any other groups appear only as adstrata, not any kind of substrata.

During the Middle-Ages the definition of "Barbar" land in the eyes of the Arabs, who were more intimately connected with Coastal Cushites as fellow Muslims, extended to include the entire Somali coast. I've done this on this site before and plan to make a post about it on AM someday, but if you map all of the Arab geographers and even later Greek geographers like Cosmas' (6th century CE) definitions of Bilad al-Barbar, Bilad al-Zunuj and such it's honestly remarkable how well the borders more or less correspond with the modern Somali Peninsula and it's very plain that from around the Bab al-Mandab down to around the mouth of the Jubba/Shabeelle to a little beyond it was Somali inhabited lands. Those camel and fat-tailed sheep herders Battuta describes.

Oromos had nothing, as far as I know, to do with all of this until their Early Modern expansions.

Don't waste your time , he just writes long paragraphs of nonsense to argue with you and bend facts to fit his fixed belief.

Herbert Lewis even pointed out that the Oromo language clusters with Konso, Gedeo, Gato, Gidole, Gawwata , all of which are found in southern Ethiopia, the same area where the Oromo themselves say they originated, including the Warday, who trace their origin to the Borana region.

Their late expansion into the Horn during the early modern period is obvious for two reasons, even if we put aside the historical writings:


1) They don’t show the kind of dialectal differentiation that Somali has, which means they haven’t been separated long. The Somali language has split into many regional dialects ,that only happens when people have been spread out over a large area for a long time.

As Lewis said:
'Galla , it is clear , cannot have begun seperating very long ago , since their ''language is so essentially constant that the women and children of Gurri tribe who inhabit El Wak oaisis and the surrounding districts ... talk the same dialect as those of the Walega''

Same point made by the linguist Sasse:

''Further research has shown that at least four linguistic stages that the Somalis have gone through are missing from the Oromo language''

2) A large number of Oromos were pagan until the 19th century , even those near Harar and Bale were still pagan until Somalis converted them. The Orma were also pagan. How could they have been indigenous or previously present to those areas when they hadn't even adopted Islam or Christianity, unlike the populations around them? So this shows they were a recent imposition.

That’s why so many colonial authors wrongly thought they were somehow the “original” population , their paganism made them stand out, not their actual history in the region.

 

[GALAN]

Don't waste your time , he just writes long paragraphs of nonsense to argue with you and bend facts to fit his fixed belief.

Herbert Lewis even pointed out that the Oromo language clusters with Konso, Gedeo, Gato, Gidole, Gawwata , all of which are found in southern Ethiopia, the same area where the Oromo themselves say they originated, including the Warday, who trace their origin to the Borana region.
View attachment 363457


Their late expansion into the Horn during the early modern period is obvious for two reasons, even if we put aside the historical writings:


1) They don’t show the kind of dialectal differentiation that Somali has, which means they haven’t been separated long. The Somali language has split into many regional dialects ,that only happens when people have been spread out over a large area for a long time.

As Lewis said:
'Galla , it is clear , cannot have begun seperating very long ago , since their ''language is so essentially constant that the women and children of Gurri tribe who inhabit El Wak oaisis and the surrounding districts ... talk the same dialect as those of the Walega''

Completely inaccurate there is many Different dialects to Affan Oromo depending on where you are from many of them are hard to understand. for an example the Showan-Walega dialect has been influenced by the Amharas. even Amongst Hararghes them selves there is many different dialect. Most of this guys work is in western Oromia of course it going to have some similarities with the Western tribes you have mentioned.

View attachment 363454

C


Same point made by the linguist Sasse:

''Further research has shown that at least four linguistic stages that the Somalis have gone through are missing from the Oromo language''
View attachment 363455

2) A large number of Oromos were pagan until the 19th century , even those near Harar and Bale were still pagan until Somalis converted them. The Orma were also pagan. How could they have been indigenous or previously present to those areas when they hadn't even adopted Islam or Christianity, unlike the populations around them? So this shows they were a recent imposition.

Sxb There was a large amount of Oromo muslims before the 19th century many Oromos became muslim during the time of Sheikh Hussein and Sheikh Abadir their tombs still lie in Oromo land. There is even mentions of Oromo clans in Ahmed gurey chronicle the the Al Yejju they are a subdivision of Wallo. The Oromo expansion probably did Happen but moretime it would have been Boronas the Barentu oromo were found in the north much before the 16th century. the Arab chronicle even makes mention of some Oromo clans like the Nole and Ala. I myself can count up multiple Forefathers and they still Arab names. I totally disagree with his work H.L relies on linguistic divergence on the two to differentiate who ,migrated north first Lewis's argument for an "earlier" Somali expansion is relative and lacks specific chronological marker.

I have provided you with many sources im not just writing paragraphs and bending facts.

That’s why so many colonial authors wrongly thought they were somehow the “original” population , their paganism made them stand out, not their actual history in the region.

you arguing with facts bro.
You cannot deny the fact Oromos lived in Somalia before Somalis even in Jiddu tradition they shared the land with wardey you tried showing me a source which goes against what you say and you never addressed that end of discussion.

 

[Grimmer]

I Never claimed Afaan oromo and Af somali are the same they share a large amount of Vocabulary and you cannot deny this.

Affan Borona/Garre = ko, Af Maay = Koi Af Somali Kaaley
Affan Borona/Garre Aayo, Af Maay = Aayo, Af Somali = Hoyo
Affan Borona/Garre = Duuge, Af Maay = Duuge, Af somali = Dooqey
Affan Borona/Garre = Feya, Af Maay= Feyla, Af somali Ficaan
Affan Borona/Garre Dhuug, Af Maay Dhag, Af Somali Cab
Affan Borona/Garre Ilmo/Ilma, Af Maay Ilmo, Af Somali Ilmo
Affan Borona/Garre Duumash, Af Maay Dumaal, Af Somali Dumashe
Affan Borona/Garre Eynu, Af Maay Ey, Af Somali Yaa

These are just some similarities between the languages I can go on and on with the similarities.


Af Garre is totally identical to Afaan Borona and cannot be differentiated whatsoever Tunni and Jiddu are also distinct from Borona and Somali.



As someone who can speak both I cant really comment on this and if this is your personal experience hearing Affan Oromo then it could also be the case for many Somalis.

Your promoting your own idea here the Greek use the term for that land why wouldn't the Greek give the ''other'' Barbari another name, why would they have not differentiated the ''Somali'' Barbar of the Somali coast from the people of Barbar if they differentiated the Ethiopians from them.


Bro bringing up these sheep cannot support your argument ultimately because of the fact that the Oromo also keep these sheep. Earlier sources show us that Azania included southern Somalia bro this is an undeniable fact you cannot limit Barbaria to Somalia because you want to.

I am not associating Oromos with the Barbarians as far as I know during the days the periplus and these early Arab sources were published there was no such thing as Oromo or Somali.
But if you're trying to deny to me that the oromo preceded the Somalis in southern Somalia then you are going against history. this area was populated by Tunni, Jiddu, and Oromo before the Hawiya/Elai/Darood expansion.

Af Garre and Oromo are completely different languages. You’re getting Afaan Garre that is spoken around Dawa and Mandera mixed up with the actual language. The original af Garre is Af-mahaaw it is completely different.
You keep referring to the newly adopted Oromo version due to close proximity and mixing with Borana.

 

[GALAN]

Af Garre and Oromo are completely different languages. You’re getting Afaan Garre that is spoken around Dawa and Mandera mixed up with the actual language. The original af Garre is Af-mahaaw it is completely different.
You keep referring to the newly adopted Oromo version due to close proximity and mixing with Borana.

Garre Tuuf = Oromo Garre Quran= ?

Affan Garre is what the majority of Garre speak the Garre of Ethiopia and Kenya and western somalia. the ones amongst Rahweyn speak different language but they are smaller in comparison to the Garre Oromo.


''Addis Admass, a weekly News Paper, www.Addisadmas.com, accessed on 23.o5.2009. According to interview with an official from the Constitutional and Regional Affairs, four groups were waiting for recognition in 2008. These were, (1) the Wolene (known as one of the Gurage clans) demanded separation from the Gurage; (2) the Manjo (a cast group among the Shakicho) demanded separation from Shakicho; the Dube (a group who claim a Bantu origin among the Somali ) requested to be separated from the Somali, and (4) the Darawa demanded a change from the Somali to the Oromo''. They have came back to their senses and have been fighting to join Oromia.

 

[Grimmer]

Tuff-Garre-Gardheere-Samaale
Quranyow Mahamed Mahe Dir

Garre Tuuf = Oromo Garre Quran= ?

Affan Garre is what the majority of Garre speak the Garre of Ethiopia and Kenya and western somalia. the ones amongst Rahweyn speak different language but they are smaller in. comparison to the Garre Oromo.


''Addis Admass, a weekly News Paper, www.Addisadmas.com, accessed on 23.o5.2009. According to interview with an official from the Constitutional and Regional Affairs, four groups were waiting for recognition in 2008. These were, (1) the Wolene (known as one of the Gurage clans) demanded separation from the Gurage; (2) the Manjo (a cast group among the Shakicho) demanded separation from Shakicho; the Dube (a group who claim a Bantu origin among the Somali ) requested to be separated from the Somali, and (4) the Darawa demanded a change from the Somali to the Oromo''.

The point is the language is new it is not the original language if that makes sense. You can’t say this the Garre language. Language is also different among subclans. But luckily I just came back from a visit from Africa. I can translate a few words in Maxaa ima give you a list of words and I’ll tell you what they mean in mahaaw. Tell me what they mean in oromo.

 

[GALAN]

Tuff-Garre-Gardheere-Samaale
Quranyow Mahamed Mahe Dir

Bro this came out recently Garre used to claim Ali madaxweyne Dir. pretty sure the somali one was something like Mahmmed xiniftire and in Tuuf their is oromo clan names me and you have discussed before.

The point is the language is new it is not the original language if that makes sense. You can’t say this the Garre language. Language is also different among subclans. But luckily I just came back from a visit from Africa. I can translate a few words in Maxaa ima give you a list of words and I’ll tell you what they mean in mahaaw. Tell me what they mean in oromo.

alright cool.

 

[Grimmer]

Woman, Man, Child, Sheep, Home, and Camel.
@GALAN translate

 

[GALAN]

Woman, Man, Child, Sheep, Home, and Camel.
@GALAN translate

Dubra, Dheera/Nemica ,Hola/Hool, Mina/Mann, Gala. This is Affan Garre and Oromo

 

[GALAN]

list some more words im keen to see the Affan Garre/Borona similarities with the south west Garres.

Woman, Man, Child, Sheep, Home, and Camel.
@GALAN translate

 

[Grimmer]

Dubra, Dheera/Nemica ,Hola/Hool, Mina/Mann, Gala.

They are all wrong nothing in common with af Garre.
I’ll translate two words because I don’t want you to have access to this language.
Sheep is Idaleey and man is rag.

 

[GALAN]

They are all wrong nothing in common with af Garre.
I’ll translate two words because I don’t want you to have access to this language.
Sheep is Idaleey and man is rag.

At the end of the day sxb Majority of Garre speak Affan Gare and they love their language hold into it strongly. out of 10 7 Garres speak Affan Garre the rest speak the language they speak amongst the raxweyn. Darrawa have been trying to join oromia. they refused to denounce there language and fought under Somali Abo that is what somalis used to call them they are Oromo's brothers and we speak an identical language. The other Garre speak a language influenced by RX.

 

[makadoor]

@NidarNidar

There is only one mistake with the article which refers to Queen Kola of Abasa as an 'Oromo queen'. She was a proto Somali queen. They got thrown off by the word 'Galla'.

Even Jorge the Spanish researcher made the same mistake in his paper called:
The Territory of Abasa (Western Somaliland) during the Medieval Period:



In early Somali, the name gaal was used to refer to the people from the same ethnicity who Islam did not reach or were considered somewhat evil. To prove this point further, there are Gadabursi tombs in Abasa that are very old that date to around the same period Queen Kola died according to Jorge. So she could never have been Oromo but definitely Somali. The term Galla needs more clarification in these studies.

Jorge is referring to this statement on Burton’s trip to Abasa:

View attachment 363018

Please share the link to this site where you took the Screenshot

 

[GALAN]

@NidarNidar Hubat Kingdom was north east of Harar. Dir Dhabe is west of Harar. See Ugaas Sahal’s recent interview about Hobat. He knows the ins and outs of the region


@Barkhadle1520 just like New York, London etc Harar started off as a small irrelevant village. The exact time of the first human settlement is unknown but one thing is guaranteed, the place already had its 1st amiir’s by approximately 1000 AD.

View attachment 363448

Dire Dawa is north of Harar you are confusing Hubat for Ganda Harla where there is some ruins. If you go to Ethiopia you will know that Hubat is on the Road to Garamuleta just of Irresa Haramaya.

 

[GALAN]

Harar is pretty old, it most likely started off as a trade town, similar to Abasa and Awbube and evolved over the years, by the 7/8th century and evolved to be a administration hub, and it become a place of learning to spread Islam into the interior by the 10-11th century, but rose to it's height between 13-16th century as that was Adal peak.

Names change, but the place site existed, for example Diridhaba is on top of a much older site called Hubat, and Saylac was built on much older site called Avalites.

Hubert is not near Dire Dawa.

7/8th century ??? Dude sorry but you're pulling those random number from your ass. Like most other towns of that nature (Fardowsa for example) it wasn't nearly as relevant as any big cities like Janasir or Doqor. And like most of these medieval settlements it was probably founded after the 11th century.

Do you realize that if the capital city was never switched to Harar you would never see it in any history books ?

Also Hubat was not a city and it has nothing to do with Diridhaba, again you're making baseless assumptions.

Hubat is a small town near Irreysa.

 

[Grimmer]

At the end of the day sxb Majority of Garre speak Affan Gare and they love their language hold into it strongly. out of 10 7 Garres speak Affan Garre the rest speak the language they speak amongst the raxweyn.

Every Garre liben speaks Somali a long side afaan oromo. You are speaking English right now so is it right for me to assume you are British?

Darrawa have been trying to join oromia. they refused to denounce there language and fought under Somali Abo that is what somalis used to call them

I am darawe, they don’t want to join Oromis because majority of them live in mandera. Moyale is a tuuf degaan. The article is not accurate in any way or must be referring to a different clan. The crazy thing is all darawe speak Maay Maay that is there first language.

During that time not many Garre participated in the Somali Abo, they were busy fighting borana it was the gurre who were more well armed and were majority of the soldiers.

they are Oromo's brothers and we speak an identical language.

The point is that you are mixing up the Garre language with is af-mahaaw with afaan garre it is separate. It is a language they picked up on. Garres are not your brothers they have been killing you guys since the day your ran into each other. Just two weeks ago you guys killed a teenage boy who was walking his father’s camel to a market. They are waiting for revenge.

The other Garre speak a language influenced by RX.

So now it is a langauge that’s influenced by rx. What is the originally language of the Garre then? Since you know so much.

 

[GALAN]

Every Garre liben speaks Somali a long side afaan oromo. You are speaking English right now so is it right for me to assume you are British?

I am darawe, they don’t want to join Oromis because majority of them live in mandera. Moyale is a tuuf degaan. The article is not accurate in any way or must be referring to a different clan. The crazy thing is all darawe speak Maay Maay that is there first language.

Bro Garre are outnumbered in Moyale by the Borona alone even when we count somalis as a whole. Garre liben started speaking Somali when siad Barre came to power, Siad Barre pushed Agenda that all oromos were oromo he gave them the name Somali Abo Some people still refer to Garre as Somali Abo he also gave Canfar the name Somali Ayka. Darawe do speak Af Maay but why would they try to be joining Oromia?.

During that time not many Garre participated in the Somali Abo, they were busy fighting borana it was the gurre who were more well armed and were majority of the soldiers.

This is hard for me to take serious because all of the GARI heroes and even the Garre chief Hassan Gorro was part of Somali Abo. Borona and Garre fought side by side dont know why you think these groups are always fighting there was times of peace and war not 24/7 fighting.

The point is that you are mixing up the Garre language with is af-mahaaw with afaan garre it is separate. It is a language they picked up on. Garres are not your brothers they have been killing you guys since the day your ran into each other. Just two weeks ago you guys killed a teenage boy who was walking his father’s camel to a market. They are waiting for revenge.

please show me source for this Afaan Garre is what the majority of Garres today speak and they have spoke that language for Generations they are brothers of Oromo and we speak same language Tuuf Garre even have oromo clan names. stop promoting war with our Garre brothers by blood and islam you are just mad that the majority of Garre dont speak your language and speak real Affan Garre.

So now it is a langauge that’s influenced by rx. What is the originally language of the Garre then? Since you know so much.

 

[Grimmer]

Bro Garre are outnumbered in Moyale by the Borona alone even when we count somalis as a whole. Garre liben started speaking Somali when siad Barre came to power, Siad Barre pushed Agenda that all oromos were oromo he gave them the name Somali Abo Some people still refer to Garre as Somali Abo he also gave Canfar the name Somali Ayka. Darawe do speak Af Maay but why would they try to be joining Oromia?.

This is hard for me to take serious because all of the GARI heroes and even the Garre chief Hassan Gorro was part of Somali Abo. Borona and Garre fought side by side dont know why you think these groups are always fighting there was times of peace and war not 24/7 fighting.


please show me source for this Afaan Garre is what the majority of Garres today speak and they have spoke that language for Generations they are brothers of Oromo and we speak same language Tuuf Garre even have oromo clan names. stop promoting war with our Garre brothers by blood and islam you are just mad that the majority of Garre dont speak your language and speak real Affan Garre.

Subahanallah I’m done with this guy I’ve never met such a sick delusional guy.

I see 100 lies and if I explain it to you, you still don’t care. So Inshallah please stick to your Oromo bisbas history and forums. This is not a place for you, garbage revisionist.

 

[GALAN]

Subahanallah I’m done with this guy I’ve never met such a sick delusional guy.

I see 100 lies and if I explain it to you, you still don’t care. So Inshallah please stick to your Oromo bisbas history and forums. This is not a place for you, garbage revisionist.

Bro why are you acting shocked ive shown you clan names in Tuuf that are oromo. AFFAN garre is the most spoken language by Garre 100 percent factual you are delusional no one knows Af mahaw are you denying the fact Garre and Borona fought together in 77?.