HISTORY The ruined stone towns of medieval Somaliland and the empire of Adal (ca. 1415–1577)
- Thread starter NidarNidar
- Start date
what if I was to show you there was.
Forget about the Periplus already, the only Barbaria I am talking about is Al-Barbaria aka Somalia. The reason I brought up the Romans and Greeks in the first place was to show why the Arabs called Somalia Barbaria
Because they had dark skin, we've been over this. There are numerous examples of ethnicities/nationalities changing their names over time.
Literally doesn't matter, they are Somali city states nontheless
Most Arab geographers clearly divide East Africa into three regions, they called the Somali peninsula Barbaria
Oh okay so I guess all those descriptions of somalis as Barbars and Somalia itself literally being called Bilad Al Barbar are fake then
Barbaria was not limited to Somalia you have to understand that. also during these times there was no such thing as Somalis or Oromos let alone Tunni or Wardey.
Sxb you were just arguing before that Azania was not in somaliaBecause they had dark skin, we've been over this. There are numerous examples of ethnicities/nationalities changing their names over time.
Literally doesn't matter, they are Somali city states nontheless
Barbaria included Northern Somalia but not southern Somalia.
I know that man, where did I claim otherwise?
I said Azania was primarily in Kenya and Tanzania, not that no part of southern Somalia was considered apart of Azania. The most famous part of Azania, Rhapta, for example was in Kenya
Nope, I already gave sources showing Arabs calling inhabitants of Mogadishu, Merca and Barawe black Barbars
Azania was also south of Opone again your arguing with people that were before us and lived during this time.
show the sources
Here you limit Barbars to Somalis.
Ibn Battuta literally describes the Barbara as black-skinned, camel and fat-tailed sheep herding Shafi'i Muslims who live from Zeila down to just beyond Mogadishu in the south. He even took the time to mention that they herded the fat tailed Somali sheep and named our madhab correctly. You couldn't get a more perfect step by step description that screams, "These are Somalis." No other ethnic group in the Horn ever historically fit this description. Not even our Afar cousins.
People are nuts, wallahi. "Discussions" like this aren't my time or yours, to be honest.
Source: Imam ahmed told me in a dream
Sxb are you arguing with the Fact Barbaria included the land south of Egypt? because if you are I have already cited Arab/Greek sources that show Barbaria was not just limited to Northern somalia but included this land.
The Somali sheep is found exclusively in Somalia but also in Oromia you cannot use this as a point to claim he is talking about somalis. But there is a possibility they were somalis since this is around the time the Oromo and the Jiddu were facing removal in Somalia.
I've only skimmed all this and will simply add a few key points and leave this be.
1) Afaan Oromo and the Soomaali languages are not in any way the same or mutually intelligible. They are totally distinct languages:
Af Maay, Tunni, Jiddu and the rest are like Portuguese would be to Spanish when relating to Af Maxaa whereas something like Oromo would be like English is to German. I'm actually being generous there as English and German boast a time divergence of about ~2,000 years whereas the Soomaali group and the Proto-Konsoromo group didn't share an ancestor until about ~3,000 years ago or a bit more.
The two languages share many cognates in terms of basic vocabulary, as do many East-Cushitic languages, but mutual intelligibility is basically non-existent. Not even the most advanced speaker of any of the Soomaali languages would ever grasp what an Oromoo speaker of any of the Oromoo dialects was saying unless they were in consistently close in terms of geographic proximity and essentially borderline bilingual. You'd maybe pick up on some words and be like "Oh!" from time to time at best if you listened very carefully or read the sentences but that's about it. Like an English speaker interacting with German or Norwegian.
2) To my knowledge, there are two "Barbarias" in the Periplus. One that is basically from Southeastern Egypt (near Berenice) down to around the Eritrean coast which corresponds to the northern half of the "Coastal Cushite" phenomenon; Bejas, Tigres (Ethiosemitized Bejas), Sahos and Afars. Then there's one that goes from the Babl al-Mandab seemingly until "Opone" (Xaafuun) and corresponds essentially with the Northern Somali coast and Somalis.
For whatever reason, it doesn't seem to me that the Greco-Romans included Koonfur within this term. But we know via linguistic study of the Soomaali languages historically down there, including Af-Maxaa, and via archaeology that it's plain that the only groups historically living there other than some native and now gone Hunter-Gatherers were the Soomaali speakers. Oromo speakers or any other groups appear only as adstrata, not any kind of substrata.
During the Middle-Ages the definition of "Barbar" land in the eyes of the Arabs, who were more intimately connected with Coastal Cushites as fellow Muslims, extended to include the entire Somali coast. I've done this on this site before and plan to make a post about it on AM someday, but if you map all of the Arab geographers and even later Greek geographers like Cosmas' (6th century CE) definitions of Bilad al-Barbar, Bilad al-Zunuj and such it's honestly remarkable how well the borders more or less correspond with the modern Somali Peninsula and it's very plain that from around the Bab al-Mandab down to around the mouth of the Jubba/Shabeelle to a little beyond it was Somali inhabited lands. Those camel and fat-tailed sheep herders Battuta describes.
Oromos had nothing, as far as I know, to do with all of this until their Early Modern expansions.
1) Afaan Oromo and the Soomaali languages are not in any way the same or mutually intelligible. They are totally distinct languages:
Af Maay, Tunni, Jiddu and the rest are like Portuguese would be to Spanish when relating to Af Maxaa whereas something like Oromo would be like English is to German. I'm actually being generous there as English and German boast a time divergence of about ~2,000 years whereas the Soomaali group and the Proto-Konsoromo group didn't share an ancestor until about ~3,000 years ago or a bit more.
The two languages share many cognates in terms of basic vocabulary, as do many East-Cushitic languages, but mutual intelligibility is basically non-existent. Not even the most advanced speaker of any of the Soomaali languages would ever grasp what an Oromoo speaker of any of the Oromoo dialects was saying unless they were in consistently close in terms of geographic proximity and essentially borderline bilingual. You'd maybe pick up on some words and be like "Oh!" from time to time at best if you listened very carefully or read the sentences but that's about it. Like an English speaker interacting with German or Norwegian.
2) To my knowledge, there are two "Barbarias" in the Periplus. One that is basically from Southeastern Egypt (near Berenice) down to around the Eritrean coast which corresponds to the northern half of the "Coastal Cushite" phenomenon; Bejas, Tigres (Ethiosemitized Bejas), Sahos and Afars. Then there's one that goes from the Babl al-Mandab seemingly until "Opone" (Xaafuun) and corresponds essentially with the Northern Somali coast and Somalis.
For whatever reason, it doesn't seem to me that the Greco-Romans included Koonfur within this term. But we know via linguistic study of the Soomaali languages historically down there, including Af-Maxaa, and via archaeology that it's plain that the only groups historically living there other than some native and now gone Hunter-Gatherers were the Soomaali speakers. Oromo speakers or any other groups appear only as adstrata, not any kind of substrata.
During the Middle-Ages the definition of "Barbar" land in the eyes of the Arabs, who were more intimately connected with Coastal Cushites as fellow Muslims, extended to include the entire Somali coast. I've done this on this site before and plan to make a post about it on AM someday, but if you map all of the Arab geographers and even later Greek geographers like Cosmas' (6th century CE) definitions of Bilad al-Barbar, Bilad al-Zunuj and such it's honestly remarkable how well the borders more or less correspond with the modern Somali Peninsula and it's very plain that from around the Bab al-Mandab down to around the mouth of the Jubba/Shabeelle to a little beyond it was Somali inhabited lands. Those camel and fat-tailed sheep herders Battuta describes.
Oromos had nothing, as far as I know, to do with all of this until their Early Modern expansions.
he never points out that the Barbar were somalis it is just the Authors theory.
I Never claimed Afaan oromo and Af somali are the same they share a large amount of Vocabulary and you cannot deny this.
Affan Borona/Garre = ko, Af Maay = Koi Af Somali Kaaley
Affan Borona/Garre Aayo, Af Maay = Aayo, Af Somali = Hoyo
Affan Borona/Garre = Duuge, Af Maay = Duuge, Af somali = Dooqey
Affan Borona/Garre = Feya, Af Maay= Feyla, Af somali Ficaan
Affan Borona/Garre Dhuug, Af Maay Dhag, Af Somali Cab
Affan Borona/Garre Ilmo/Ilma, Af Maay Ilmo, Af Somali Ilmo
Affan Borona/Garre Duumash, Af Maay Dumaal, Af Somali Dumashe
Affan Borona/Garre Eynu, Af Maay Ey, Af Somali Yaa
These are just some similarities between the languages I can go on and on with the similarities.
Af Maay, Tunni, Jiddu and the rest are like Portuguese would be to Spanish when relating to Af Maxaa whereas something like Oromo would be like English is to German. I'm actually being generous there as English and German boast a time divergence of about ~2,000 years whereas the Soomaali group and the Proto-Kosnoromo group didn't share ancestor until about ~3,000 years ago or a bit more.
Af Garre is totally identical to Afaan Borona and cannot be differentiated whatsoever Tunni and Jiddu are also distinct from Borona and Somali.
As someone who can speak both I cant really comment on this and if this is your personal experience hearing Affan Oromo then it could also be the case for many Somalis.
Your promoting your own idea here the Greek use the term for that land why wouldn't the Greek give the ''other'' Barbari another name, why would they have not differentiated the ''Somali'' Barbar of the Somali coast from the people of Barbar if they differentiated the Ethiopians from them.
Bro bringing up these sheep cannot support your argument ultimately because of the fact that the Oromo also keep these sheep. Earlier sources show us that Azania included southern Somalia bro this is an undeniable fact you cannot limit Barbaria to Somalia because you want to.
I am not associating Oromos with the Barbarians as far as I know during the days the periplus and these early Arab sources were published there was no such thing as Oromo or Somali.
But if you're trying to deny to me that the oromo preceded the Somalis in southern Somalia then you are going against history. this area was populated by Tunni, Jiddu, and Oromo before the Hawiya/Elai/Darood expansion.
Last edited:
Step a side
VIP
Read through this.
https://sacredfootsteps.com/2020/09/01/the-east-african-saint-shaykh-abadir-of-harar/
There are towns and villages older than Harar just a mile or so away. I have friends that live a stone’s throw away from the walled city. They will tell you the exact same thing. No need for fkd. If you not sure about something just ask.
I was just joking sxp but archeologists concluded that there is no evidence that Harar is older than the 16th century, no mention of it before that either. Harar was probably just another small town before 1520.
Harar is pretty old, it most likely started off as a trade town, similar to Abasa and Awbube and evolved over the years, by the 7/8th century and evolved to be a administration hub, and it become a place of learning to spread Islam into the interior by the 10-11th century, but rose to it's height between 13-16th century as that was Adal peak.
Names change, but the place site existed, for example Diridhaba is on top of a much older site called Hubat, and Saylac was built on much older site called Avalites.
7/8th century ??? Dude sorry but you're pulling those random number from your ass. Like most other towns of that nature (Fardowsa for example) it wasn't nearly as relevant as any big cities like Janasir or Doqor. And like most of these medieval settlements it was probably founded after the 11th century.
Do you realize that if the capital city was never switched to Harar you would never see it in any history books ?
Also Hubat was not a city and it has nothing to do with Diridhaba, again you're making baseless assumptions.
Diridhaba was built on top of its ruins. Hubat, like many of the other Islamic city-states, taxed local villages and profited from the trade. These sorts of locations are used multiple times,and more archaeological digs need to happen to get the full picture of the region.
Three of the mosques date back to the 10th century, according to UNESCO, something like Harar doesn't just pop out of nowhere, it's built on something older.
