The ruined stone towns of medieval Somaliland and the empire of Adal (ca. 1415–1577)

NidarNidar

♚kṯr w ḫss♚
VIP
Plenty of medieval Arabic writers and travelers like Ibn Idiris, Ibn Said, Ibn Battuta ect all very clearly talk about Somalis living in Jubaland/southern Somalia. Furthermore, that entire region was considered apart of Al-Barbaria aka Somalia. Then there are all the ruins and architecture left behind of Somali origin.


That isn't Oromo. "Gaal" is an archaic Somali word for Camel and has no relation to the word Galla which was only used by Habeshas. Many Somali clan names and places use the word Gaal in it so it is of clear Somali origin.

No it is only an Oromo tradition. Somali oral traditions say nothing about Oromos ruling over or dominating southern Somalia, there is no coroboration of that.
No point arguing with him, I'll refrain from saying anything ill of him, not sure why he is even here, his like those revision hoteps who claim AE history, instead of looking at their own.

In psychology, this is called social identity theory, people derive a sense of pride and belonging from the groups they are part of (e.g., ethnicity, nationality, religion). When two groups, like the Oromo and Somali, are in close contact or competition over resources or power, there can be a psychological tendency to either strengthen one’s own group identity or attempt to diminish the status of the other group. This can lead to misappropriation of cultural history or symbols to either assert dominance or claim a shared history that strengthens group cohesion.

Notice we never claim anything from them, while we reject those of unknown paternal heritage, they accept it willingly.

History is used as a tool of power and legitimacy. In situations where historical narratives are contested (especially in post-colonial contexts), groups may seek to rewrite or reinterpret history to serve their own political or social purposes. This can sometimes manifest as claiming aspects of another group's cultural or historical identity, either to align with a dominant narrative or to weaken a competing narrative.
 
sxb there are many errors in this text the source you have used even states the follow

''Those Galla who moved south were thought in their turn to have dislodged Bantu-speaking peoples from the Webi Shebelle area and then at a later date to have defeated the various Bantu-speaking groups in the state of Shungwaya, pushing them south from the Juba to
below the Tana and Sabaki rivers''. he promotes an idea of bantu living in this area before oromo and then rejects it ? very confusing he then goes on to claim that the Tunni

He is summarizing a previously held view by I'M Lewis and in the next paragraphs he shows hows its been challenged and overturned by newer scholarship.

This is the full Paragraph.
1749472887007.png

1749472915275.png


His opinion:

''So far, archaeology and linguistics have failed to provide any conclusive evidence of a Bantu migration into central Somaliland"
1749473115062.png


After evaluating the historical evidence he says:
"Thus there appears to be a lack of clear evidence that there were Bantu- speaking groups in central Somaliland at any early date, while the evidence relating to Bantu-speaking people being on the river Juba is either confused or tainted.30"
1749473259498.png


your claim here that the Katwa were somali contradicts what you have just showed me he literally says the katwa were proto somali Bajuni we both know Bajuni are not somali ethnically or linguistically. he then goes on to make some astonishing claims and tried claiming Liben was somali when the Borona up to this day claim the originate in Libin and it is literally the name of one of the largest Borana subclan, Gunther Schlee even makes mention on how the Borana originate in Liben. Turton concludes the oromo migrated to the area in the 16th century as if he didnt point out before in the pages above that the Orma migrated to the somali interior before the Borana migrations (16th century). the article is very confusing and all in all cannot be trusted. Lobo mentions the oromo being at war with the Mossegueios a people who can not be identified, I am clueless on why you are mixing them with the Somali.

''There are also traditions that Garre migrated from Afmadu and came as clients (shegat) to the Bajun, while the Katwa are sometimes referred to as a proto-Somali Bajun clan''.This man is very confused is proposing an idea that the Bajuni lived here before the pre hawiya and confuses them as Somali as for the Makatwa he himself cannot even confirm they were somali and goes on to say ''Yet, although it is a term that cannot be given any precision'', and after that he goes on to differentiate them from the Bajuni and clashes with what he has showed in the pages above. Turton just shows us many fantasy theories and the work he shows us has no evidence to back his ideas he uses a bantu theory to expel Oromos out the picture and then an Oromo theory to expel bantus out the picture confused person and cannot be trusted at all.
Bajunis are a mixed confederacy of clans.

Again he sumarrizing other peoples view points and then interrogates it. He says ''Katwa are sometimes referred to" so he is relating how others saw them.
He actually details there are Bajunis who claim descent from Somali clans like Garre in the passages before it but you left it out.
1749473946962.png


More detail on this. But the main point being Garre and Tunni Somali speakers are associated with Juba and lived there all the way down to kenya.


1749473580938.png


This view by Turton has been strenghtened by newer archeological and linguistic studies that there has been continuous Somali presence in Northern Kenya before they came in contact with ND(Northern Swahili speakers) and it was Southern Somali speakers like Garre/Tunni that spread out from Juba around 800 or earlier.
1749474482939.png

1749474562558.png
 
Plenty of medieval Arabic writers and travelers like Ibn Idiris, Ibn Said, Ibn Battuta ect all very clearly talk about Somalis living in Jubaland/southern Somalia. Furthermore, that entire region was considered apart of Al-Barbaria aka Somalia. Then there are all the ruins and architecture left behind of Somali origin.


That isn't Oromo. "Gaal" is an archaic Somali word for Camel and has no relation to the word Galla which was only used by Habeshas. Many Somali clan names and places use the word Gaal in it so it is of clear Somali origin.

No it is only an Oromo tradition. Somali oral traditions say nothing about Oromos ruling over or dominating southern Somalia, there is no coroboration of that.
Gaal does not mean camel bro no need to lie about this, also yes Rahweyn do know about Gedi shambo Bilad Al barber was the northern part of Somalia The arabic sources of the time never use the term somali but Berber the people of Berbera. Also from what I know ibn Battuta does not use the term somali he tells us the customs and traditions of the people of Mogadishu and does not give us a deep understanding on these peoples identity they were Muslim. but if you can correct me here do.


Sxb im not telling you there was no Somali presence in Somalia before the 15th century, there undoubtedly was but now how we see it as today ''Somalia''. Before the Somali expansion the Oromo once lived in the Jubba/Baidoa/Garba Harre area the idea im promoting is that around the 14th-15th century the Somali abandoned this Border and invaded all the way past the Jubba which was probably shared by the Tunni and Oromo speaking people. by the 17th century the Oromo were pushed out of Northern, and Middle somalia to Jubbaland where they lived with the Jiddu and Tunni before the Elai/Darood invasions.

He is summarizing a previously held view by I'M Lewis and in the next paragraphs he shows hows its been challenged and overturned by newer scholarship.

This is the full Paragraph.
View attachment 363314
View attachment 363315
Me personally I haven't come across I.M lewis claiming the oromo expelled Batu from the area, in the article I did read he tells us that the somali expansion played a crucial role in the oromo expansion to the west. Turton himself adds a full stop and goes on with his own theory to my understanding I can be corrected here though if you can show me Lewis's text.
His opinion:

''So far, archaeology and linguistics have failed to provide any conclusive evidence of a Bantu migration into central Somaliland"View attachment 363316

After evaluating the historical evidence he says:
"Thus there appears to be a lack of clear evidence that there were Bantu- speaking groups in central Somaliland at any early date, while the evidence relating to Bantu-speaking people being on the river Juba is either confused or tainted.30"
View attachment 363317


Bajunis are a mixed confederacy of clans.

Again he sumarrizing other peoples view points and then interrogates it. He says ''Katwa are sometimes referred to" so he is relating how others saw them.
He actually details there are Bajunis who claim descent from Somali clans like Garre in the passages before it but you left it out.
View attachment 363319

Sxb I am not leaving it out there is just no need for me to argue or prove a point with you about origin of the Bajuni and if they are Ethnically Somali. Turton promotes His idea that they are to claim somalis are indegnious to this area in Jubaland using Bajuni name as a weapon.
More detail on this. But the main point being Garre and Tunni Somali speakers are associated with Juba and lived there all the way down to kenya.



View attachment 363318

I am confused here my freind, again he is just telling us we cant be for certain the Maractes were somali and as he explained before the Katwa were Bajunis. Stiles, Daniel claims the Aweer a people whos language has some similarities with Afaan Borona fled to the Bajuni islands and lived with the Bajuni these people (Bajuni/Aweer) were the real wakatwa not to confuse it with the Somali people.
This view by Turton has been strenghtened by newer archeological and linguistic studies that there has been continuous Somali presence in Northern Kenya before they came in contact with ND(Northern Swahili speakers) and it was Southern Somali speakers like Garre/Tunni that spread out from Juba around 800 or earlier.

View attachment 363320
View attachment 363321

The Tunni are the real indeginous, the Garre are also indigenous to this part of Africa but the Wardey preceded the Garre in some of these areas. around the 1700s the Tunni group that we know today was created and not the Tunni from before all though there is some elements of original Tunni in them they were influenced by the expansionist Hawiye.

1749477665122.png


1749477943061.png
 
Last edited:
Gaal does not mean camel bro no need to lie about this,
Yeah it does. Geel is camel in af maxa but Gaal is camel in af maay which is the dialect that kept a lot of archaic Somali featuree. It very much is of Somali origin since many places and even clans have Gaal in the name such as Abgaal. Are you going to start claiming that Somali clans in Mogadishu are of Oromo origin now?


yes Rahweyn do know about Gedi shambo
No, they don't. There is no tradition among the Rahaweyn where they claim Oromos used to rule over them, that plain nonsense.


Bilad Al barber was the northern part of Somalia The arabic sources of the time never use the term somali but Berber the people of Berbera
Nope. They also applied Bilad Al Barber to southern Somalia as well. One Arabic writer defined it as stretching from Zeila to Barawe.

tells us the customs and traditions of the people of Mogadishu
He literally states that the Mogadishu sultan spoke Maqdishi in addition to Arabic. The forner is obviously Somali. Another eye witness account from another traveller states that Mogadishu had a nomadic way of life and had lots of camels, sheeps and goats.
the Oromo once lived in the Jubba/Baidoa/Garba Harre area
And I'm telling you that is straight up BS. I repeat, there is zero archeological, linguistic, genetic, written or oral evidence of an Oromo presence in southern Somalia. You also claimed Gaalkayo was Oromo so you are also saying they were living as far north as Mudug which is even dumber. Just please give me primary sources of Oromos being there and not false oral stories collected by a white dude that aren't even consistent with Somalis traditions.
 

El Nino

Cabsi cabsi
VIP
There is absolutely no point in arguing with this galan guy. He is from somalised oromo clan as he himself said. This has probably created multiple different weird complexes.

Just mute him and tell the admin to remove him. Man derails threads.
 

NidarNidar

♚kṯr w ḫss♚
VIP
There is absolutely no point in arguing with this galan guy. He is from somalised oromo clan as he himself said. This has probably created multiple different weird complexes.

Just mute him and tell the admin to remove him. Man derails threads.
Yes, he does. I have him muted, just not worth the time.
 
Top