No such things Oromo only started their migration up north from the early 16th century.
The ruined stone towns of medieval Somaliland and the empire of Adal (ca. 1415–1577)
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I watched a video on Facebook a couple days beofre this about somebody interviewing this old somali man who spent decades resaerching this and was even educated overseas . He said that all we have are a few stories and no real historical records. Its wild when you consider how large Madunna is that basically no info survived.
I'm sure there are historical records but there are kept among families, libraries in other countries and even just plain buried.
I could definitely see this town being mentioned on historical record kept in unpublished manuscripts and the like. But I think its telling how this oday who is from the region couldn't find any local families after decades of researching this.
yes my freind I confused Turton and Turnbull
" The second of these two nations extends from Burnt Island, or
Bunder Jedid, to Zaila, and is divided into three great tribes, namely,
the Ilaber-Gehajjis, the Haber-Awwal, and the Habert el-Jahlah, {Haber
meaning the sons of), who were the children of Isaakh by three wives,
the said Isaak having crossed over from Hadhramaut some time after his
countrymen had founded the nation to the eastward, and settled at the
town of Meyt, near Burnt Island, where his tomb exists to this day.
Isaakh, finding his influence on the increase, owing to his intermarriage
with a Galla tribe, made a sudden descent upon the neighbourhood of
Berbera, then in the hands of a celebrated Galla chieftain, Sultan
Harireh, and succeeded in obtaining possession of the country as far as
Zaila...The patriarch Isaakh was gathered to his fathers at a very ad
vanced age, and was buried at the town of Meyt, leaving behind him a
name which is respected to this day."
look at how he makes it clear Galla tribe, and Galla chieftain and uses the term Sultan it is undeniable that this sultan Harireh was an oromo and not just a pagan Gaalo.
Turton also cant give us a clear date and he relies on the fact that by the 17th century Oromos were living in the Juba where the Portuguese interviewed and noted, this in no way can be used as a source that oromos didnt preced the somali and just shows the longevity of oromo presence. Turnbull also showcases how by 1650 the oromo were at a decline due to constant pressure by the somalis, and this is also mentioned in the source I cited above that by the 1400s the oromo were pushed back to Burhakaba. All your source tells me is they were living there by the 17th century and the man shows no evidence to show that they were preceded in the area. Turton even makes it clear ''Lobo was one of the first Portuguese to attempt an intensive study of the interior of the East African littoral between Malindi and Brava'' so we can question him again how else would the Portuguese know if they never studied these people and just assumed they were Somali this Lobo actually went and studied the people and found out they were Oromo. Turton even goes on to mention that the Orma had no clue of the Oromo invasions in the north and even points out that these people had arrived in somalia before the Bahreys account of the Zenahu le Galla which is just proving my point even more sxb( page 534). if your own source contradicts each other how can you use it bro.
sxb the point or source you are using here is very confusing. the author uses the Bantu theory to expel oromos out the picture, and in doing so he also disagrees with it but he somehow uses it to back his claim that the Garre lived in this area. he even claims garre were absorbed by Bajuni and claims they expelled the earlier bantu speaking groups which you just made clear is false, so this source your using is very questionable. also there are sources from as early as the 1600's long before bahrey even said the oromos had reached Harar of an Oromo king in Berbera
Ludovico di Varthem who traveled around Asia, Africa, and Europe mentions a Galla sultan Harireh.
" The second of these two nations extends from Burnt Island, or
Bunder Jedid, to Zaila, and is divided into three great tribes, namely,
the Ilaber-Gehajjis, the Haber-Awwal, and the Habert el-Jahlah, {Haber
meaning the sons of), who were the children of Isaakh by three wives,
the said Isaak having crossed over from Hadhramaut some time after his
countrymen had founded the nation to the eastward, and settled at the
town of Meyt, near Burnt Island, where his tomb exists to this day.
Isaakh, finding his influence on the increase, owing to his intermarriage
with a Galla tribe, made a sudden descent upon the neighbourhood of
Berbera, then in the hands of a celebrated Galla chieftain, Sultan
Harireh, and succeeded in obtaining possession of the country as far as
Zaila...The patriarch Isaakh was gathered to his fathers at a very ad
vanced age, and was buried at the town of Meyt, leaving behind him a
name which is respected to this day."
look at how he makes it clear Galla tribe, and Galla chieftain and uses the term Sultan it is undeniable that this sultan Harireh was an oromo and not just a pagan Gaalo.
Turton also cant give us a clear date and he relies on the fact that by the 17th century Oromos were living in the Juba where the Portuguese interviewed and noted, this in no way can be used as a source that oromos didnt preced the somali and just shows the longevity of oromo presence. Turnbull also showcases how by 1650 the oromo were at a decline due to constant pressure by the somalis, and this is also mentioned in the source I cited above that by the 1400s the oromo were pushed back to Burhakaba. All your source tells me is they were living there by the 17th century and the man shows no evidence to show that they were preceded in the area. Turton even makes it clear ''Lobo was one of the first Portuguese to attempt an intensive study of the interior of the East African littoral between Malindi and Brava'' so we can question him again how else would the Portuguese know if they never studied these people and just assumed they were Somali this Lobo actually went and studied the people and found out they were Oromo. Turton even goes on to mention that the Orma had no clue of the Oromo invasions in the north and even points out that these people had arrived in somalia before the Bahreys account of the Zenahu le Galla which is just proving my point even more sxb( page 534). if your own source contradicts each other how can you use it bro.
Idilinaa
VIP
That copied text is highly unreliable , it relies on Somali Quraishi genealogies to claim that Somalis are the product of Arab patriarchs intermarrying with Oromo. Anyone with half a brain can see how bogus that is.
It’s easy to see why it falls apart: it’s a colonial-era text from the late 19th century , not at all what Ludovico di Varthema wrote about Berbera in the 1500s.
Here’s what he actually wrote about Berbera:
The travels of Ludovico di Varthema in Egypt, Syria, Arabia Deserta and Arabia Felix, in Persia, India, and Ethiopia, A.D. 1503 to 1508 : Varthema, Lodovico de, 15th cent : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive
Includes bibliographical references (p. iii-xvi) and index
archive.org
He didn’t mention anything about the Galla or Somali tribes. He stayed there for a single day, gave a very brief description of the port, and then set sail. That’s it.
The rest , the extended genealogical narrative and is just a long footnote added by another author in 1863, who inserted his own theories based on the knowledge and biases of that era.
The part where you quoted me was actually addressing the claim about Bantus existing in southern Somalia prior to Somalis and I was pointing out how that idea had already been dismissed. The author clearly shows that the people in southern Somalia weren’t Bantu in origin.
This next qoute under is a continuation, where the author maps out southern Somali migration. He explains that the Orma and Warra Day trace their origins to the Borana region in southern Ethiopia and that they launched an invasion into the Juba-Tana area, where many southern speaking Somali groups were living. According to him, what occurred in the 19th century was more accurately a reconquest of territory that Somalis had previously held.
Lobo doesn't make blind assumptions either , he refers to Somali groups using their Swahili name, Katwa, and specifically notes that they were Muslim. He also mentions how Galla are the ones invading and he even refrences their oromo clans and names.
Oromos attacked Harar and many other areas during this period, hence the increased fortifications around Muslim towns. There is no evidence of any Oromo settlements in the area deacribed at that time, let alone Islamic ones, in the area we are describing. Wu iska hadlaya……..
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The Rendille, Jiddu and other groups like Bayso are also strong evidence of a continuous “Somali” speaking area before the Oromos separated these groups following the invasions. Those cairns and remains across northern Kenya are also Somali-like. We can say beyond doubt that Somali preceded Oromos in the Jubba region, northern Kenya and some parts of Ethiopia.That copied text is highly unreliable , it relies on Somali Quraishi genealogies to claim that Somalis are the product of Arab patriarchs intermarrying with Oromo. Anyone with half a brain can see how bogus that is.
View attachment 363289
It’s easy to see why it falls apart: it’s a colonial-era text from the late 19th century , not at all what Ludovico di Varthema wrote about Berbera in the 1500s.
Here’s what he actually wrote about Berbera:
View attachment 363285
The travels of Ludovico di Varthema in Egypt, Syria, Arabia Deserta and Arabia Felix, in Persia, India, and Ethiopia, A.D. 1503 to 1508 : Varthema, Lodovico de, 15th cent : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive
Includes bibliographical references (p. iii-xvi) and indexarchive.org
View attachment 363286View attachment 363287
He didn’t mention anything about the Galla or Somali tribes. He stayed there for a single day, gave a very brief description of the port, and then set sail. That’s it.
The rest , the extended genealogical narrative and is just a long footnote added by another author in 1863, who inserted his own theories based on the knowledge and biases of that era.
The part where you quoted me was actually addressing the claim about Bantus existing in southern Somalia prior to Somalis and I was pointing out how that idea had already been dismissed. The author clearly shows that the people in southern Somalia weren’t Bantu in origin.
This next qoute under is a continuation, where the author maps out southern Somali migration. He explains that the Orma and Warra Day trace their origins to the Borana region in southern Ethiopia and that they launched an invasion into the Juba-Tana area, where many southern speaking Somali groups were living. According to him, what occurred in the 19th century was more accurately a reconquest of territory that Somalis had previously held.
Lobo doesn't make blind assumptions either , he refers to Somali groups using their Swahili name, Katwa, and specifically notes that they were Muslim. He also mentions how Galla are the ones invading and he even refrences their oromo clans and names.
sxb there are many errors in this text the source you have used even states the follow
''Those Galla who moved south were thought in their turn to have dislodged Bantu-speaking peoples from the Webi Shebelle area and then at a later date to have defeated the various Bantu-speaking groups in the state of Shungwaya, pushing them south from the Juba to
below the Tana and Sabaki rivers''. he promotes an idea of bantu living in this area before oromo and then rejects it ? very confusing he then goes on to claim that the Tunni
your claim here that the Katwa were somali contradicts what you have just showed me he literally says the katwa were proto somali Bajuni we both know Bajuni are not somali ethnically or linguistically. he then goes on to make some astonishing claims and tried claiming Liben was somali when the Borona up to this day claim the originate in Libin and it is literally the name of one of the largest Borana subclan, Gunther Schlee even makes mention on how the Borana originate in Liben. Turton concludes the oromo migrated to the area in the 16th century as if he didnt point out before in the pages above that the Orma migrated to the somali interior before the Borana migrations (16th century). the article is very confusing and all in all cannot be trusted. Lobo mentions the oromo being at war with the Mossegueios a people who can not be identified, I am clueless on why you are mixing them with the Somali.That copied text is highly unreliable , it relies on Somali Quraishi genealogies to claim that Somalis are the product of Arab patriarchs intermarrying with Oromo. Anyone with half a brain can see how bogus that is.
View attachment 363289
It’s easy to see why it falls apart: it’s a colonial-era text from the late 19th century , not at all what Ludovico di Varthema wrote about Berbera in the 1500s.
Here’s what he actually wrote about Berbera:
View attachment 363285The travels of Ludovico di Varthema in Egypt, Syria, Arabia Deserta and Arabia Felix, in Persia, India, and Ethiopia, A.D. 1503 to 1508 : Varthema, Lodovico de, 15th cent : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive
Includes bibliographical references (p. iii-xvi) and indexarchive.org
View attachment 363286View attachment 363287
He didn’t mention anything about the Galla or Somali tribes. He stayed there for a single day, gave a very brief description of the port, and then set sail. That’s it.
The rest , the extended genealogical narrative and is just a long footnote added by another author in 1863, who inserted his own theories based on the knowledge and biases of that era.
The part where you quoted me was actually addressing the claim about Bantus existing in southern Somalia prior to Somalis and I was pointing out how that idea had already been dismissed. The author clearly shows that the people in southern Somalia weren’t Bantu in origin.
This next qoute under is a continuation, where the author maps out southern Somali migration. He explains that the Orma and Warra Day trace their origins to the Borana region in southern Ethiopia and that they launched an invasion into the Juba-Tana area, where many southern speaking Somali groups were living. According to him, what occurred in the 19th century was more accurately a reconquest of territory that Somalis had previously held.
Lobo doesn't make blind assumptions either , he refers to Somali groups using their Swahili name, Katwa, and specifically notes that they were Muslim. He also mentions how Galla are the ones invading and he even refrences their oromo clans and names.
''There are also traditions that Garre migrated from Afmadu and came as clients (shegat) to the Bajun, while the Katwa are sometimes referred to as a proto-Somali Bajun clan''.This man is very confused is proposing an idea that the Bajuni lived here before the pre hawiya and confuses them as Somali as for the Makatwa he himself cannot even confirm they were somali and goes on to say ''Yet, although it is a term that cannot be given any precision'', and after that he goes on to differentiate them from the Bajuni and clashes with what he has showed in the pages above. Turton just shows us many fantasy theories and the work he shows us has no evidence to back his ideas he uses a bantu theory to expel Oromos out the picture and then an Oromo theory to expel bantus out the picture confused person and cannot be trusted at all.
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The Gabra are Oromo there are some elements of Garre presence amongst the Gabra Miigo but this is very small.
''In a nutshell, the issue of identity has been a bone of
controversies in many countries in the world and in Africa in
particular. It is no exception to Gabra Migo people in
Ethiopia in recent years. The Gabra Migo of today are the
Gabra Migo of the past in the sense that we can still observe
sameness in the identity of Gabra Migo. These people never
doubt about their Oromo identity for very long period of time
and still today they sting to their true identity. The recent
falsely associated Somali identity to Gabra Migo by some
groups like Garre and Gabra political traders is a politically
motivated scenario and calculated mission by Garre to get
dominance in the area. Hence, it can strongly be argued that
the grand labelling of Somali identity to Gabra Migo cannot
by no means reveals the real identity of the people under
study. The fact is Gabra Migo people was Oromo, they are
Oromo now and they continue to be Oromo no matter what''.
Aden Husien Hassen: A Refutation to a Claimed Gabra Migo People’s “Somali Identity”
This is more or less the scholarly concensus. Oromos were in southwestern Ethiopia and Kenya prior to the 16th century with zero mentions of them in any historical record in the middle ages. After the Imam's war against Ethiopia, records begin appearing of the Oromo migrations which is when they began to settle in the Juba-Tana area. Prior to all of this, the area was cleary Somali as proven by archeology, linguistics, written and oral history.
Genetic evidence also proves this since only NFD Somalis carry some degree of Borana DNA whereas Jubaland Somalis carry zero Oromo DNA, showing the limits of Oromo migrations.
the Jubaland Somalis today and the Jubaland somalis of 1500 weren't the same people, The Jubbaland somalis are Ogaden the Ogaden came as clients and expelled the oromo from where they lived. this logically makes no sense since the Jubbaland somalis that we now know only came to this area in the 19-20th century.
Pre-1500 Jubaland was populated by Rahanweyn and other Somali clans, but clan identity is irrelevant here. The point is that there is archeological, linguistic and historical evidence of Somalis living in Jubaland and even as far south as Lamu in the middle ages.
these Rahweyn clans were not a somali speaking group rahweyn is also a bunch of tribes put together. there is bantus amongst them aswell but for the most part a lot of these tribes were influenced by the Oromo. post 1500 saw a gradual decline of oromo presence in the area I suggest you read Turnbull.
No, Rahaweyn were nearly 100% Somali back then. Bantus only came in significant numbers via the slave trade in the 19th century.
Oromo influence would only be limited in the modern day NFD area hence why again you only see Borana DNA in that area. And how can post 1500 be a decline of Oromo presence when they first arrived in the 1500s to begin with? Your timeline doesn't add up.
they did not arrive in the 1500s. The source above which @Idilinaa showed us before claims that the Orma of Jubbaland migrated to the Jubba before the Borona migrations which started in the 1520s. I also showed a source which showed how the Oromo lost their presence in that area and retreated to Burhakaba, The Borona still remember that they once lived in Somalia under Abay Abaabo or Gedi Shaambo/ Gedi Abaabo he ruled a large kingdom which included southern Ethiopia and somalia he was chief of Sodom Boran and was the leader of Borona and Rahweyn tribes before the 16th century. Gedi Ababos kingdom was destroyed because of his very questionable xeer which included him taking the virginity of chaste women and marrying of to his subjects and people claiming his blessing was in them the Borona Gada warriors rebelled and expelled Gedi Shambo. After this according to Borana tradition he ruled over the Rahwayn later on the Rahweyn also rebelled and killed him this marked a turning point on The Oromo dominance and was supposedly the start of Oromo decline. Turnbull's work shows that by 1650 the Oromo were forced to cross the Wabi shabelle and had been expelled from Baidoa and this migration process took 8-9 generations prior to then which would be around second half of 14th century to first half of 15th century, Turnbull's timing Resembles the source I presented before so it could be accurate.
Again, there is zero archeological, linguistic or historical records of an Oromo presence in southern Somalia prior to the 16th century. Those Oromo tales/traditions are fabricated stories collected in the 19th century and don't reflect the historical research done in the region. Your ancestors were still in Ethiopia/Kenya at the time while Somalis were in Juba since antiquity.
Show me a single primary source of Oromos having a major presence in Jubaland prior to the 16th century.
I would like to ask you the same question about somalis. again our sources are limited because of how long they were but id like to educate my self and see mentions of the rahweyn tribes before 16th century. this is history sxb you cant rewrite this also the place names like Garba Harre Gaalkacyo etc.
Gedi Shaambow is not just an oromo tradition, his name still holds large sways of influence amongst the Rahweyn of today ask around about him seek more knowledge about him before you conclude it is fabricated or collected in the 19th century. Lobos account already holds the oromo at war in the 16th century so you cannot deny this.
Plenty of medieval Arabic writers and travelers like Ibn Idiris, Ibn Said, Ibn Battuta ect all very clearly talk about Somalis living in Jubaland/southern Somalia. Furthermore, that entire region was considered apart of Al-Barbaria aka Somalia. Then there are all the ruins and architecture left behind of Somali origin.
That isn't Oromo. "Gaal" is an archaic Somali word for Camel and has no relation to the word Galla which was only used by Habeshas. Many Somali clan names and places use the word Gaal in it so it is of clear Somali origin.
No it is only an Oromo tradition. Somali oral traditions say nothing about Oromos ruling over or dominating southern Somalia, there is no coroboration of that.
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