Taliban continue ban on womens education

[Angelina]

I will look up a sharh insha'Allah, I don't want to try to interpret the hadith just based on my own thoughts

It’s not about the Hadith interpretation as many of them interpret it as women being fitnah due to men’s desire of them, but you’ll hardly have any address the elephant in the room, why does this desire not extent to slave women who were millions? You do know in an ancient Islamic society you’d see more half naked women than in the West? You do know this right? In the West women would be arrested if they walked around topless ect and in a Muslim society you’d see more nakedness in women.

This is what modern Muslims fail to understand since they refuse to read history and don’t think critically.

 

[Omar del Sur]

It’s not about the Hadith interpretation as many of them interpret it as women being fitnah due to men’s desire of them, but you’ll hardly have any address the elephant in the room, why does this desire not extent to slave women who were millions? You do know in an ancient Islamic society you’d see more half naked women in the West? You do know this right? In the West women would be arrested if they walked around topless ect and in a Muslim society you’d see more nakedness in women.

are you sure that this was a universal thing in Muslim societies? in the days of Umar ibn Al Khattab they were doing this? I'm sure this kind of thing did happen in certain times and places but I don't think it was a universal or universally accepted thing

edit: maybe I'm wrong, I am not a historian. I don't know for certain. but even if it happened amongst the earlier generations, I would assume it was a holdover from pre-Islamic times (rather than anything that came with Islam)

 

[Periplus]

No one but the ignorant and kuffar are upset about this. You rely on constant propaganda.

You are so deranged that you are upset war, drugs, murder, occupation, bacha bazi and corruption was replaced with a functional state that is guided by Islam.

Girls get a religious education what you are mad about is their lack of access to gender studies, liberalism, financial independence, and onlyfans.

The agenda targetting Muslim women was exposed long ago to most Muslims by now. If you are mad about it, it is a good thing.

Kulahaa drugs, you mean the Taliban that used drug trafficking to fund their conflict with the US.

 

[Angelina]

I think I've posted before a quotation from Sheikh Ibn Taymiyyah that was directly opposed to that kind of thing. There maybe were some scholars who history who approved of it but it wasn't unanymous, I'm not sure where the majority lied but I don't think that's the correct viewpoint or understanding of the shariah

Majority did Omar. Ibn Taymiyya was a minority view in those days and even he had to dance around the situation.

1. He believes that slave women in the past didn’t have to wear hijab since they weren’t desired. But anyone that reads knows that isn’t true. Why? Because we know Sahabas had concubines and concubinage was common in the early days although marriage was more the norm in the time of the Prophet s.a.w. Ibn Taymiyya is literally one of my favorite scholars and I believe he’s incredibly intelligent but it’s clearly mental gymnastics.

2. He says in this time women should wear hijab since they’re Turkish and Greek women ect. Beauty is subjective. In the past slave women came from other places but men still desired them since they gave birth to their kids.

 

[Omar del Sur]

Majority did Omar. Ibn Taymiyya was a minority view in those days and even he had to dance around the situation.

1. He believes that slave women in the past didn’t have to wear hijab since they weren’t desired. But anyone that reads knows that isn’t true. Why? Because we know Sahabas had concubines and concubinage was common in the early days although marriage was more the norm in the time of the Prophet s.a.w. Ibn Taymiyya is literally one of my favorite scholars and I believe he’s incredibly intelligent but it clearly mental gymnastics.

2. He says in this time women should wear hijab since they’re Turkish and Greek women ect. Beauty is subjective. In the past slave women came from other places but men still desired them since they gave birth to their kids.

wait a minute I think I looked into it and there was a view that slave women didn't need to cover their heads but they needed to cover their breasts. I think the view they could walk around with their breasts exposed was a minority view. Allah knows best.

edit: I looked and what I saw said majority approved the bare chested slave practice. maybe it was the majority. even if that was the case, Islam is always right and the minority view is not necessarily wrong so I would just stick with the minority view if the pro bare chested one is the majority

 

[Angelina]

wait a minute I think I looked into it and there was a view that slave women didn't need to cover their heads but they needed to cover their breasts.

Yes but even in that view they can wear t-shirts ect so dress like Western women.

I think the view they could walk around with their breasts exposed was a minority view. Allah knows best.

Even then, if a slave women who is 10/10 and I hypothetically a let less attractive and I wear a hijab hence my hair and body shape is covered, who is man drawn to? How can I then be fitnah when in an Islamic society women’s beauty is showcased but based on social hierarchy?

This is what causes confused and contradiction and it causes mental gymnastics in the case of Ibn Taymiyyah who tried to argue that slave women weren’t desired when men still slept with them.

 

[World]

x.com

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Mawlana Abdul Ali Dewbandi argues that even teaching women how to read and write at home is frowned upon.

Stuff like this, will push many Muslim women into dangerous territory. It’s clear to see that some Islamic thinkers of the past couldn’t and wouldn’t put aside their misogyny. There is nothing in the Quran and Sunnah to suggest women shouldn’t read and write. The scholar here is clearly also talking about the Arabic language. If it’s Makruh to teach women to read, it’s also Makruh for her to be a scholar and learn the religion in depth as it does require reading and writing Fus’ha to an advanced level. This is clear attempt to keep women ignorant of all aspects deen and dunya.

The hatred of women is evident here. How can anyone with any morality or intelligence believe that Allah created women with the ability to learn, think and gain knowledge, but mere man has the right to force them to live in ignorance?

Without reading or writing, how can women enforce their rights to like inheritance? Read contracts that put their livelihoods in jeopardy? Any man that argues against the education of women especially in this day and age is evil.

To think that Muslim men have been telling gaals that Islam is the religion that first gave women rights and that the first university was built by a woman when these same men treat Muslim women like this. If women’s education and the basic rights to read is now a debate, why lie and say women have rights?

The day of Judgement will be interesting indeed. May Allah have mercy on us all. I truly believe that a lot of these men who masquerade as religious have a God complex. The First Surah of the Quran tells us to Read and know we have men who want to deny women this.

One of the female companions of the Prophet (saw) was Shifa Bint Abdullah(r.a), she was a physician and a teacher who could read and write before Islam.

The Prophet (saw) said in an Sahih hadith about her:

“Will you not teach (Hafsa r.a, the daughter of the Prophet) the cure for Ant bites (skin ulcers), just as you have taught her writing?”

(Sunan Abi Dawud)

الدرر السنية - الموسوعة الحديثية - شروح الأحاديث

dorar.net

Ibn Hajr, said in commentary of this hadith,

“This is not proof that women should seek out how to write, it is only proof that they are permitted to learn it. But we say that this is a severe matter, and severely disliked for the sinful consequences that can arise from it.”
Al-Fatawa al-Hadithiyah

Some say Shifa Bint Abdullah(r.a) was entrusted by Umar(r.a) in a capacity over the markets of Madinah, however I'm not sure about this.

Ibn Sa’d in 12th century

“It is said that Umar Bin Khattaab had appointed her over the marketplace. However, her progeny would reject this and would get angry over this.

al-Maaziree in 11th century:

“And some people gave an explanation to this (by saying) that he (Umar) only entrusted her (the task of) changing what would occur from the wrongdoings in the marketplace, and this is outside (the remit) of entrusting judgeship.” (Uddat ul-Burooq of alWanshireeshee)

Qadi Ibn Arabi, said:

“It is not authentic so pay no mind to it, as it is one of the conspiratorial machinations of the heretics in hadith.” (Ahkaam ul-Qur’aan)

Interestingly enough, this scholar Qadi Ibn Arabi was expelled from Spain by the Muslim population and the religious scholars, for his wild views like legitimizing the killing of the grandchildren of the Prophet(saw)

The Expulsion of Qadi Abu Bakr ibn al-Arabi (d. 1148) from Seville

One of the little-known historians of the late medieval Islamic West is undoubtedly Ismā‘īl ibn al-Aḥmar (d. 1407). He was a a member of the reigning Andalusī Nasrid dynasty in Granada who spent mo…

ballandalus.wordpress.com

There was another female Sahabi appointed again by... Umar(ra) who had a job in the marketplace, but this time in Makkah

10th century scholar, Ibn Abdul Barr said,

“Samra bint Nahik would patrol the markets, enjoining good and forbidding evil.”
al-Istī’āb fī Maʻrifat al-Aṣḥāb 4/1863

Yahya ibn Abi Salim reported:

I saw Samra bint Nahik, may Allah be pleased with her. She had met the Prophet (during the time he was alive), peace and blessings be upon him. She was wearing a thick armour and veil. In her hand was a whip she was directing the people, and she would enjoin good and forbid evil.
al-Mu’jam al-Kabīr 785
Grade: Jayyid (very good) according to Al-Albani

In the 7th century, there was a female scholar Umm al Darda as Sughra who was a tabi'ieen. She used to teach in the Ummayad mosque of Damascus and al-Aqsa mosque in Jerusalem, one of her regular students was the Caliph, who ruled from Spain to India in 685-705. A prominent jurist, and hadith expert.

Ibn Kathir:

The Caliph 'Abd al-Malik ibn Marwan used to attend her class in Damascus to learn the fiqh from her, and he sat as one among her other students.
al-Bidayah wa-1-nihqyah, sub anno 82

al-Dhahabi:

Isma'il ibn Cubaydillah has reported: ''Abd al-Malik ibn Marwan was sitting in the Rock [of Jerusalem] and Umm al-Darda' was sitting with him [teaching]. When the adhan of maghrib was called, he stood up and she stood up leaning on 'Abd al-Malik [and so they remained] until he entered the mosque with her. Then she sat with the women and 'Abd al-Malik went forward to lead the prayer.
Siyar a-lam al-nubala, iv.279.

 

[Angelina]

One of the female companions of the Prophet (saw) was Shifa Bint Abdullah(r.a), she was a teacher, and a doctor. She could read and write before Islam.

The Prophet (saw) said in an Sahih hadith about her:


Ibn Hajr, said in commentary of this hadith,



Some say Shifa Bint Abdullah(r.a) was entrusted by Umar(r.a) in a capacity over the markets of Madinah, however I'm not sure about this.

Ibn Sa’d in 12th century


al-Maaziree in 11th century:


Qadi Ibn Arabi, said:



Interestingly enough, this scholar Qadi Ibn Arabi was expelled from Spain by the Muslim population and the religious scholars, for his wild views like legitimizing the killing of the grandchildren of the Prophet(saw)

The Expulsion of Qadi Abu Bakr ibn al-Arabi (d. 1148) from Seville

One of the little-known historians of the late medieval Islamic West is undoubtedly Ismā‘īl ibn al-Aḥmar (d. 1407). He was a a member of the reigning Andalusī Nasrid dynasty in Granada who spent mo…

ballandalus.wordpress.com

Islamic history is like game of Thrones level of intrigue. I love reading about the Ummayadd and those in their camp.

There was another female Sahabi appointed again by... Umar(ra) who had a job in the marketplace

10th century scholar, Ibn Abdul Barr said,


Yahya ibn Abi Salim reported:


In the 7th century, there was a female scholar Umm al Darda as Sughra who was a tabi'ieen. She used to teach in the Ummayad mosques of Damascus and al-Aqsa in Jerusalem, one of her regular students was the Caliph, who ruled from Spain to India in 685-705. A prominent jurist, and hadith expert.

Ibn Kathir:


al-Dhahabi:

How can women have any rights since many scholars of the past have set the precedence that women can be barred from anything using the idea of women being a temptation? What the Taliban is doing is simply falling into a long tradition of some scholars operating this way.

Their logic: Women writing is haram because they can right letters to men, women going to the masjid is haram because men can see them, women having money of their own is haram since they can use that money to fund haram activities. Using that thought process, virtually every human right can be cut off. Yet things like child marriage or any so called ancient ‘right’ of men cannot be barred since it makes the halal, haram. At this point, it’s evident from looking at many Islamic scholarly writing, only men’s right are protected. Making the halal haram is only an issue when men’s rights are called into question.

Even things like women changing their appearance via surgery is seen as halal by many scholars as long as it’s done for the husband’s permission. Hence things that are haram for women can become halal if it’s for the pleasure of men. There is a Hadith about how the Prophet s.a.w curses the women who plucks her eyebrows, yet the Hanafis and some Shafis are of the view that a woman can if she gets her husband’s permission as a way to make herself beautiful. Therefore, sometimes according to some Islamic scholars, the husbands wishes can by-pass the haram. A husband can by-pass the Islamic concept of ties of kinship according to many scholars as he can ban his wife from saying good-bye to her dying father or even her own child.

Also, let’s unpack their interpretation of women being fitnah: Women’s beauty draws men in, but it’s okay we can have slave women half naked paraded on our streets. Men can stare at boobs but the fully covered jilbabi free Muslim woman going to the masjid will tempt Muslim men. Authobillah, how are we meant to ignore this logic?

I think from reading many classical views, some scholars regard the ‘rights’ of women based on the whims of man rather than simply based on primary sources. Hence why, even women reading is up for debate, women getting boob implants which you’d think would be categorized as haram
unless it’s for cancer victims ect are also up for debate as well. Women being a temptation for men but a subsection of women’s boobs being out is up for debate. Why? Men’s desires and whims.

One must be dumb to not see this.

 

[Celery]

Taliban will soon not exist if they continue like this path. Slowly their base will go against them. They are retarded in every what but fighting

They are also retarded in fighting. The mountains and harsh geography defeated empires.

 

[World]

Islamic history is like game of Thrones level of intrigue. I love reading about the Ummayadd and those in their camp.

It’s clear to see that many Muslim scholars of the past fell victim to ancient Persian and Greek views with regards to women and till this day, we women are being issued fatwas based on the societal misogyny of the 10th influenced by ancient civilizations. Also, how. can women have any rights since scholars of the past have set the precedence that women can be barred from anything using the idea of women being ‘fitnah’? What the Taliban is doing is simply falling into a long tradition of some scholars operating this way.

Their logic: Women writing is haram because they can right letters to men, women going to the masjid because men can see them, women having money of their own is haram since they can use that money to fund haram activities. Using that thought process, virtually every human right can be cut off. Yet things like child marriage or any so called ancient ‘right’ of men cannot be barred since it makes the halal, haram. At this point, it’s evident from looking at many Islamic scholarly writing, only men’s right are protected. Making the halal haram is only an issue when men’s rights are called into question.

Even things like women changing their appearance via fake hair and surgery is seen as halal by many scholars as long as it’s done for the husband’s permission. Hence things that are haram for women can become halal if it’s for the pleasure of men. There is a Hadith about how the Prophet s.a.w curses the women who plucks her eyebrows yet the Hanafis and some Shafis are of the view that a woman can if she gets her husband’s permission as a way to make herself beautiful. Therefore, sometimes according to some Islamic scholars, the husbands wishes by-pass the haram. A husband can by-pass the Islamic concept of ties of kinship according to many scholars as he can ban his wife from saying good-bye to her dying father or even her own child.

I think from reading many classical views, some scholars regard the ‘rights’ of women based on the whims of man rather than simply based on primary sources. Hence why, even women reading is up for debate, women getting boob implants which you’d think would be categorized as haram
Unless it’s for cancer victims ect are also up for debate as well. Why? Men’s desires and whims.

Also, it makes perfect sense why many would have issues with women reading. If I was illiterate would I have been able to read their views? Think critically and make deductions? Would women be able to fight for their so called ‘rights’?

-Female companions of the prophet(saw) used to wear armour and were police in the marketplace, commanding good and evil appointed by the caliph
-The prophet (saw) used to tell female companions women to teach each other to write, and how to cure illnesses.
Female tabieen were the teachers in al-aqsa and ummayad mosque, with the caliph himself being one of their humble students.

So what exactly is there to really discuss or care about? It's not like their islam was even practiced by sahaba or tabi'in.

 

[Omar del Sur]

There is a lot to discuss since the fatwas we take from in this day and age from are from classical scholars whose attitudes to women is clouded by 10th century misogynistic norms. You need to understand that via this framework every aspect of women’s rights is up for debate.

are you saying it's wajib for people to doubt the classical scholars? should we question as well whether there are five prayers rather than six? what aspects of our religion are we allowed to believe in?

what you are saying is not in line with any scholar in the world. no scholar would try to make us doubt the entire tradition.

what the Taliban are doing is wrong if it's true they're not letting women learn to read and get education but that does not justify either for people to disparage the classical scholars as a whole. and to try to enforce this on people??? people must doubt the classical scholars??? insha'Allah I have misunderstood you but if it really is the case that you want some kind of "islamic reformation", you want to cast doubt on the entire tradition- which comes to us through the classical scholars- then that would be really wrong.

 

[Angelina]

are you saying it's wajib for people to doubt the classical scholars? should we question as well whether there are five prayers rather than six? what aspects of our religion are we allowed to believe in?

what you are saying is not in line with any scholar in the world. no scholar would try to make us doubt the entire tradition.

what the Taliban are doing is wrong if it's true they're not letting women learn to read and get education but that does not justify either for people to disparage the classical scholars as a whole. and to try to enforce this on people??? people must doubt the classical scholars??? insha'Allah I have misunderstood you but if it really is the case that you want some kind of "islamic reformation", you want to cast doubt on the entire tradition- which comes to us through the classical scholars- then that would be really wrong.

Show me where I disparaged all the classical scholars? When I said there is a lot to discuss my point is, we can’t say that the Taliban don’t have a leg to stand on when they use scholarly opinion.

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This isn’t about reformation nor am I casting aspersions on all the scholars. They’re human and will be rewarded for what they’re right in but it’s absurd to deny that some aspects with regards to women is very much influenced by 9th to 12th century norms and I as a woman are free to not follow what I’ve outlined. The Taliban didn’t just make it up.

 

[World]

are you sure that this was a universal thing in Muslim societies? in the days of Umar ibn Al Khattab they were doing this? I'm sure this kind of thing did happen in certain times and places but I don't think it was a universal or universally accepted thing

edit: maybe I'm wrong, I am not a historian. I don't know for certain. but even if it happened amongst the earlier generations, I would assume it was a holdover from pre-Islamic times (rather than anything that came with Islam)

Theres no proof that it happened in the times of Umar al khattab(ra), this practice did not exist during their times. All of these hadiths are weak and fabricated, but as for 200 years after the death of the prophet(saw) then thats another question.

 

[Omar del Sur]

the din is nasiha.

nasiha to five

-Allah
-His kitab
-His Rasul ﷺ
-the imams of the Muslims
-the ordinary Muslims

btw nasiha is often translated as sincerity but I am of the view that it would be better to translate it here as faithfulness or fidelity (and I am not the first to suggest this, Israr Ahmad used "faithfulness" and it was I think Tom Faccine who suggested "fidelity" as translation (btw I have huge differences of views with Tom Faccine but I think what he said about the word nasiha is worthwhile)



honestly I don't think nasiha can really be directedly translated into English but I think "advice" is not a right translation here because obviously for example the din is not advice to Allah. nasiha (I suggest it be translated as "faithfulness") to Allah includes for example al-wala wal-bara.

and wallahi... respect and honoring the scholars is from nasiha to the Messenger of Allah ﷺ... because the scholars are inheritors of the prophets

further the nasiha includes nasiha to the imams of the Muslims. some translations of the famous hadith I'm refering to- they might say rulers of the Muslims but in the actual Arabic it is the imams of the Muslims.

This would include for example Muslim rulers but it could also include the scholars such as Imam Shafi'i, Imam Malik, Sheikh Ibn Taymiyyah, etc.

I don't support being against women's education but no way can I support views that would undermine the status of the scholars and I especially could not accept anything that would attack the entire scholarly tradition. whoever did such a thing would be doing the work of the enemies.

 

[Angelina]

Theres no proof that it happened in the times of Umar al khattab(ra), this practice did not exist during their times. All of these hadiths are weak and fabricated, but as for 200 years after the death of the prophet(saw) then thats another question.

How do we know it’s fabricated when classical scholars used them and Albani even classed some of it has sahih?

I personally do not believe those Hadiths but my personal view cannot be used as proof since feelings aren’t evidence.

 

[Angelina]

the din is nasiha.

nasiha to five

-Allah
-His kitab
-His Rasul ﷺ
-the imams of the Muslims
-the ordinary Muslims

btw nasiha is often translated as sincerity but I am of the view that it would be better to translate it here as faithfulness or fidelity (and I am not the first to suggest this, Israr Ahmad used "faithfulness" and it was I think Tom Faccine who suggested "fidelity" as translation (btw I have huge differences of views with Tom Faccine but I think what he said about the word nasiha is worthwhile



honestly I don't think nasiha can really be directedly translated into English but I think "advice" is not a right translation here because obviously for example the din is not advice to Allah. nasiha to Allah includes for example al-wala wal-bara.

and wallahi... respect and honoring the scholars is from nasiha to the Messenger of Allah ﷺ... because the scholars are inheritors of the prophets

further the nasiha includes nasiha to the imams of the Muslims. some translations of the famous hadith I'm refering to- they might say rulers of the Muslims but in the actual Arabic it is the imams of the Muslims.

This would include for example Muslim rulers but it could also include the scholars such as Imam Shafi'i, Imam Malik, Sheikh Ibn Taymiyyah, etc.

I don't support being against women's education but no way can I support views that would undermine the status of the scholars and I especially could not accept anything that would attack the entire scholarly tradition. whoever did such a thing would be doing the work of the enemies.

I don’t believe in disparaging scholars. They’re human and will be rewarded in what they’re right in which is a lot, but I refuse to engage in cognitive dissonance. I even defended Abu Hanifa earlier and believe Ibn Taymiyyah is an amazing scholar. You’re right without these scholars we wouldn’t have any knowledge of the deen hence that isn’t my point. I’ve outlined by point in the other post I sent you.

 

[World]

How do we know it’s fabricated when classical scholars used them and Albani even classed some of it has sahih?

I personally do not believe those Hadiths but my personal view cannot be used as proof since feelings aren’t evidence.

al-Albani:

It is strange that some tafsir experts are fooled by these weak narrations, such that they adhere to the view restricting His saying ‘the believing women’ as free women to the exclusion of maidservants, and based upon this that maidservants do not have the obligation to cover their head and hair like free women. Rather, some of the legal schools exaggerate to the point that they mention her nakedness is like the nakedness of men, only from the navel to the knee… Despite this, there is no evidence for it in the Book and the Sunnah.

These weak narrations contradict Islam entirely, and these madhab and scholars were fooled by them as al-Albani stated. Sahih just means that their chain of their narrations met the specific standard, but they are still weak and to be rejected as slander against the sahaba(ra).

 

[Angelina]

al-Albani:


These weak narrations contradict Islam entirely, and these madhab and scholars were fooled by them as al-Albani stated. Sahih just means that their chain of their narrations met the standard, but they are still weak and to be rejected as slander against the sahaba(ra).

Didn’t he try to say the source about Ibn Umar was sahih? Correct me if I’m wrong?

 

[World]

Didn’t he try to say the source about Ibn Umar was sahih? Correct me if I’m wrong?

It doesn't mean the matn(text) is sahih, it means that even without looking at what was actually said, the isnad of who narrated it from the year 800, to the time of the ibn Umar(ra), and their biographies met the sahih standard.

 

[Angelina]

It doesn't mean the matn(text) is sahih, it means that even without looking at what was actually said, who narrated it from the year 800, to the time of the ibn Umar(ra), and their biographies met the sahih standard.

Yes, but when you classify something as sahih people will get the impression that the content itself is correct and that it’s something that has actually happened. Do you have any proof that he has made that distinction?