Sufi Grave Worshipper Doubt: Call Upon The Angels For Help When Lost In The Desert

[AdoonkaAlle]

2. Intercession with deceased more specifically with the Prophet is allowed by all 4 schools in fact it has been done since the days of the salaf. The classical scholars not only allowed it but recommended it, laakin modern day salafi disallow it and consider it to be major shirk.

Imam Ibn Qudama al-Maqdisi [al-Hanbali] (d. 620 AH) recommends seeking intercession with the Prophet ﷺ

He said in his famous al-Mughni 3/478 - 488 (or see HERE) the following in the context of the visitation (he mentioned in the beginning of the section that the visitation of the Prophetic grave is desirable ("وَيُسْتَحَبُّ زِيَارَةُ قَبْرِ النَّبِيِّ - صَلَّى اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ")):

اللَّهُمَّ إنَّك قُلْت وَقَوْلُك الْحَقُّ: {وَلَوْ أَنَّهُمْ إِذْ ظَلَمُوا أَنْفُسَهُمْ جَاءُوكَ فَاسْتَغْفَرُوا اللَّهَ وَاسْتَغْفَرَ لَهُمُ الرَّسُولُ لَوَجَدُوا اللَّهَ تَوَّابًا رَحِيمًا} [النساء: 64] . وَقَدْ أَتَيْتُك مُسْتَغْفِرًا مِنْ ذُنُوبِي، مُسْتَشْفِعًا بِك إلَى رَبِّي، فَأَسْأَلُك يَا رَبِّ أَنْ تُوجِبَ لِي الْمَغْفِرَةَ، كَمَا أَوْجَبْتهَا لِمَنْ أَتَاهُ فِي حَيَاتِهِ، اللَّهُمَّ اجْعَلْهُ أَوَّلَ الشَّافِعِينَ، وَأَنْجَحَ السَّائِلِينَ، وَأَكْرَمَ الْآخَرِينَ وَالْأَوَّلِينَ، بِرَحْمَتِك يَا أَرْحَمَ الرَّاحِمِينَ

O Allah, You spoke and your saying is the truth: { If they had only, when they were unjust to themselves, come unto thee and asked Allah's forgiveness, and the Messenger had asked forgiveness for them, they would have found Allah indeed Oft-returning, Most Merciful } [4:64].
So I've come to you, asking [my Lord] for forgiveness for my sin and seeking intercession through you unto my Lord. So I ask you, o Lord, that you grant me forgiveness just like you granted it to the one who came to him during his life.

O Allah, grant to him that he be the first of the intercessors, the most successful of those who ask, and the most honorable of the first and the last, through Your Mercy - o Most Merciful of the Merciful!.



Imam Ibn Qudama recommends acting upon the Hadith of the blind man when in need!

He said in his Wasiyya (p. 46-48) under the chapter of asking for a need (translation taken from here: "The Blazing Star in Defence of a Narration from Malik al-Dar" (p. 391):

وإذا كانت لك حاجة إلى الله تعالى تريد طلبها منه فتوضأ ، فأحسن وضوءك ، واركع ركعتين ، وأثن على الله عز وجل ، وصلَ على النبي صلى الله عليه وسلم ، ثم قل : لا إِلَهَ إِلاَّ الله الحَلِيمُ الكَريمُ، سُبحَانَ رَبِّ العَرشِ العَظيمِ الحَمْدُ للهِ رَبِّ العَالمِينِ، أَسأَلُكَ مُوجِبَاتِ رَحمَتِكَ وَعَزَائمَ مَغفِرَتِكَ وَالغَنيمَةَ مِنْ كُلِّ بِرٍّ، وَالسَّلامَةَ مِنْ كُلِّ إِثْمٍ، لا تَدَعْ لي ذَنباً إِلاَّ غَفَرْتَهْ وَلا هَمَّاً إِلاَّ فَرَّجْتَهْ، وَلا حَاجةً هِيَ لَكَ رِضاً إِلاَّ قَضَيتَهَا يَا أَرحَمَ الرَّاحمين

وإن قلت : اللهم إني أسألك وأتوجه إليك بنبيك محمد صلى الله عليه وسلم نبي الرحمة يا محمد إني أتوجه بك إلى ربي فيقضي لي حاجتي، وتذكر حاجتك

وروي عن السلف أنهم كانوا يستنجحون حوائجهم بركعتين يصليهما ثم يقول : اللهم بك أستفتح وبك أستنجح ، وإليك بنبيك محمد صلى الله عليه وسلم أتوجه ، اللهم ذلل لي صعوبة أمري ، وسهل من الخير أكثر مما أرجو ، واصرف عني من الشر أكثر مما أخاف

If you need something from Allah, exalted is He, and want to seek it from Him, do wudu and do it well, perform two rak’ahs, and praise Allah, mighty and majestic is He, bless the Prophet (sallallahu alaihi wa sallam) and then say: ‘There is no god but Allah, the Ever-Forbearing, the Generous. Glory is to Allah, the Lord of the immense Throne. Praise belongs to Allah, the Lord of the worlds. O Allah, I ask You for what obliges Your mercy and the firm resolution (to obtain) Your forgiveness, the obtainment of every act of piety and safety from every wrongdoing. O Allah, do not leave me any wrong action but that You forgive it nor any care but that You relieve it nor any need that is pleasing to You but that You settle it, O Most Merciful of the merciful.

O Allah, I ask You and turn to You by Your Prophet Muhammad (sallallahu alaihi wa sallam), the Prophet of mercy. O Muhammad, I turn by you to My Lord and your Lord, mighty and majestic is He, for Him to settle my need for me.’ Then he should mention what he needs.

It is related that the early Muslims (Salaf) used to seek to have their needs fulfilled by praying two rak’ahs and then saying: ‘O Allah, I seek opening by You and success by You. I turn to You by Your Prophet Muhammad (sallallahu alaihi wa sallam). O Allah, make the difficulty in my business easy for me, ease my hardship for me, make smooth for me good than I hope for and avert from me more evil than I fear.’

 

[المهندس]

Both miaw and his followers only accept tawassul with the living only (they even put conditions here like the one sought intercession from has to be present etc),but seeking tawassul with the deceased including the Prophet is shirk to them and they label anyone doing such an action as a mushrik. They fought and killed the muslims who rejected the najdi dawah on this basis.

The issue here is that you simply haven't read their books only listen to what you're taught without researching nor verifying it. Some of his books have already been translated into english, you just need to read it.


In his kashf as shubuhat (Remover of doubts) this is what miaw had to say about the muslims who sought intercession with the deceased be it the Prophet or any of the righteous muslims etc.

​

Source: kash shubuhat pg 10-13 link: https://download.ilmussalaf.com/Books/Kashfush-Shubhaat-Eng.pdf


In the above excerpt from kash shubuhat miaw equates the seeking of intercession done by muslims to that of the pagan quraysh. He states that the pagan quraysh had tawheed rububiyyah just like the muslims he makes takfir of and says what the muslims are doing by seeking intercession with the prophet or righteous muslim is exactly the same as that of pagan quraysh.

Meaning the shirk of quraysh was seeking intercession with their idols and they worshipped them on this basis, so the muslim who seeks intercession from either the Prophet etc is in fact worshipping them and they too are considered to be mushriks.



Problems with the above


1. Pagan quraysh didn't have tawheed rububuiyyah ie they didn't single out Allah in His Rububiyyah. They affirmed some of Allah's Rububiyyah to their idols that they worshipped

View attachment 181254
The above qoute is from islamqa (real meaning of tawheed rububiyyah ), even though they claim that mushrikeen affirmed tawheed rububiyyah they conceded the fact that pagans also committed shirk in rububiyyah. Now how is it possible to affirm tawheed and shirk in rububiyyah at the same time ? doesn't shirk not negate tawheed ? They pagan believed that lat uzza and manat idolgods were the daughters of Allah, ascribing offspring to Allah is shirk rububiyyah. They share the same belief as christians who believe that Issa is the son of God. Can we now then say that such pagans have the same belief as muslims regarding tawheed rububiyyah ?

First few sentences into your statement and i can already see your dishonesty, fear Allah bro whatever agenda you have put it to aside.

The video i sent from a hanbali sheikh who practices tawassul to the prophet clearly stated miaw did NOT deem it shirk but rather makruh in his durar saniyah.

So why would you make up stuff or is the sheikh in the video making stuff up ?

seems like you are mixing up tawassul and isitgatha to the dead ..


Also i advise you to follow the link i posted people who are more knowledgeable than all of us and are fluent in arabic they debated this matter on twitter and bought forth proof that what sheikh miaw came with is nothing new and many scholars preceded him in affirming isitighatha to the dead is shirk... not tawassul.

 

[AdoonkaAlle]

You're getting mixed up with tawassul and istighatha.

Tawassul ( Supplicating to Allah through intermediaries)

Isitghatha ( calling upon and seeking the help of other than Allah)

Tawassul we can agree no sheikh permitted it haram not even sheikh miaw the video above i sent is proof.

Some extreme sufis actually believe the prophet and pious scholars have powers over the unseen and that they can change their dunya outcome.. << when they supplicate to them this is istighatha seeking help directly from the dead.

^^ this is the type of shirk the quraysh done, they worshipped their idols alongside allah and thought their idols can change their fate and have knowledge of the unseen.


So clearly isitighatha to the dead is shirk tawassul is not shirk by ijmaa even though scholars dislike tawassul theres only two rulings makruh and halal as the video stated.

Isitighatha to the dead being shirk was never a "wahhabi" ibn rajab, ibn aqeel, ibn khuzaymah many scholars of all four madhab came before sheikh miaw and said the same thing he did.

This topic tawassul/istighatha was debated on twitter couple months ago by some students of knowledge who know arabic they cleared up a lot of misconception.

https://mobile.twitter.com/al_lailkasee?lang=en

That brother that you're quoting from twitter believes that the quraysh had tawheed rububiyyah and didn't commit shirk, furthermore even with tawassul they only accept and consider to be bidah is when one supplicates and uses the prophet as a means like the hadith of the blind man. To them this type of tawassul was allowed during the life time of Prophet peace be upon Him, so after his death they consider it to be bidah. What they don't tell you is that asking for the intercession of the Prophet peace be upon Him at His grave they consider such an action to be major shirk

Laakin we've reports from the salaf that they acted on it, the first person to ever disallow it was ibn taymiyyah so for the first 7 centuries no scholar ever forbade it. Ibn taymiyyah got into a lot of trouble for it, was even jailed and scholars of his time and after refuted him on this.

"I've been afflicted in my eyesight, so please pray to Allah for me." The Prophet (Allah bless him and grant him peace) said: "Go make ablution (wudu), perform two rak'as of prayer, and then say:

"Oh Allah, I ask You and turn to You through my Prophet Muhammad, the Prophet of mercy; O Muhammad (Ya Muhammad), I seek your intercession with my Lord for the return of my eyesight [and in another version: "for my need, that it may be fulfilled. O Allah, grant him intercession for me"]."

 

[AdoonkaAlle]

First few sentences into your statement and i can already see your dishonesty, fear Allah bro whatever agenda you have put it to aside.

The video i sent from a hanbali sheikh who practices tawassul to the prophet clearly stated miaw did NOT deem it shirk but rather makruh in his durar saniyah.

So why would you make up stuff or is the sheikh in the video making stuff up ?

seems like you are mixing up tawassul and isitgatha to the dead ..


Also i advise you to follow the link i posted people who are more knowledgeable than all of us and are fluent in arabic they debated this matter on twitter and bought forth proof that what sheikh miaw came with is nothing new and many scholars preceded him in affirming isitighatha to the dead is shirk... not tawassul.

I'm not even making it up, i gave quotes from his book kash shubuhat (removal of doubts ) as evidence to back up what i said. As for the video then this like the statements where miaw claims that he doesn't make takfir but yet again we find him doing it and even writing a book after he made takfir of an entire town.

If i'm not mistaken in the other thread that was about miaw you brought quotes from miaw where he claims not to make takfir but i brought evidence that proved he did, this is exactly the same scenario all over again walaal. You need to read his books to understand what miaw's dawah was all about there's alot that isn't taught as it's controversial and will make anyone be concerned.

Why are you choosing to ignore what miaw says in his own book ? there are video lectures in english on youtube, watch it and then decide for yourself. The people teaching the book are people who follow his dawah. Search kash ash shubuhat on youtube and listen what adherents of miaw dawah teach about it.

 

[reer]

halyeey jaalle sheikh MIAW imagine if we had him in somalia 150 years ago karbashing heretic galgaduudian sufis. if only.

 

[المهندس]

I'm not even making it up, i gave quotes from his book kash shubuhat (removal of doubts ) as evidence to back up what i said. As for the video then this like the statements where miaw claims that he doesn't make takfir but yet again we find him doing it and even writing a book after he made takfir of an entire town.

If i'm not mistaken in the other thread that was about miaw you brought quotes from miaw where he claims not to make takfir but i brought evidence that proved he did, this is exactly the same scenario all over again walaal. You need to read his books to understand what miaw's dawah was all about there's alot that isn't taught as it's controversial and will make anyone be concerned.

Why are you choosing to ignore what miaw says in his own book ? there are video lectures in english on youtube, watch it and then decide for yourself. The people teaching the book are people who follow his dawah. Search kash ash shubuhat on youtube and listen what adherents of miaw dawah teach about it.

Im not ignoring anything i just believe the criticism nowadays of sheikh miaw is emotional and not backed up by sufficient evidence.. i sent a video of a sheikh who does tawassul to the prophet stating miaw did not deem it shirk but you claim miaw deemed it shirk.. it looks like you're mixing up isitighatha and tawassul.

i sent a link from a debate on twitter where proof was bought that miaw and ibn tayymiyyah were not the first ones who declared isitighatha to the dead shirk... you ignored that also

In the other thread when i asked you why did imam shawkani praise sheikh miaw ? you said he was possibly influenced by his dawah..

Also that brother on twitter said there's difference of opinion on tawassul .. the sheikh who does tawassul to the prophet also said there is a difference of opinion on tawassul.. but tawassul is not the issue its istighatha to the dead seeking help from the dead person believing they can help you and have knowledge of the unseen.

Currently i am in the process of studying arabic to clear these type of misconceptions because it seems like people who know arabic with an agenda like to distort and misuse quotes

 

[AdoonkaAlle]

Im not ignoring anything i just believe the criticism nowadays of sheikh miaw is emotional and not backed up by sufficient evidence.. i sent a video of a sheikh who does tawassul to the prophet stating miaw did not deem it shirk but you claim miaw deemed it shirk.. it looks like you're mixing up isitighatha and tawassul.

Much of what miaw's did in terms of takfir, mistakes etc isn't taught at all it's the reason why you and others are finding it difficult to accept any criticism of miaw. All that you know is that he was the reviver of tawheed and was harsh against shirk, kufr etc. The image you've of him is a false one propagated by his modern followers who do their best to keep it that way.

Did you even bother to read the excerpt from kashf shubuhat ? miaw is saying that those who seek intercession with righteous are kuffar and exactly like the mushrikeen of quraysh. He deems them to be mushriks just like the mushriks of quraysh. Have a read again from the same qoute. I never once talked about istighatha. I'm citing actual statements from miaw that you can read for yourself that are in english. The book has been translated by those who subscribe themselves to the dawah of miaw.

Then answer him with what has preceded. And if he affirms that the kuffaar (disbelievers) used to testify that all the ruboobeeyah (Lordship) is for Allaah, and that they sought only shafaa’ah (intercession) from the ones that they turned to – but he wishes to distinguish between their action and his action, with what he has mentioned, then mention to him that from the kuffaar were some who would call upon the idols, and some who would call upon the awliyaa (beloved servants of Allaah) about whom Allaah says:

«Those upon whom they call seek a means to Allaah, as to which of them should be the closest.»


And say to him, “Do you know that Allaah has declared the person who seeks (the intercession) of the idols to be a kaafir, and He has also declared to be a kaafir the person who seeks (the intercession) of the righteous people, and Allaah’s Messenger fought against them?”

So if he says: “The kuffaar (disbelievers) sought from them - whereas I bear witness that Allaah is the One who brings benefit, and the One who brings harm and the One who controls all the affairs, and I do not seek anything from anyone other than Him, and (that) the righteous people do not have any part in this matter. However, I turn to them and I hope from Allaah for their intercession.”

Then the answer is: “That this is exactly the same as the statement of the kuffaar!” And recite to him His Statement, He the Most High:

«And those who take awliyaa (protector/guardian) besides Him (say), “We worship them only so that they may bring us close to Allaah!”»

In surah 39:3 and elsewhere in other ayah Allah tells us that the mushrikeen took awliya (protectors/guardians) besides Him. Al wali (awliyah plural) is one of the attributes of Lordship that belongs to Allah and in these ayat Allah affirms that the mushrikeen affirmed it to others beside Him ie affirmed it to their gods whom they worshipped.

Miaw completely twists this and somehow uses this as proof for him, ignoring the fact that mushriks believed their gods had the ability to protect, guard, support etc and this is why they sought intercession from their gods while the muslims who seek intercession of either the Prophet peace be upon Him or righteous muslims don't believe this nor do they believe in gods beside Allah.

i sent a link from a debate on twitter where proof was bought that miaw and ibn tayymiyyah were not the first ones who declared isitighatha to the dead shirk... you ignored that also

I didn't ignore it as we still haven't moved passed tawassul, my first reply to you was about the issue of tawassul where you still continue to claim that miaw didn't fight people on it because as you claim he considered it to be makruh. To prove to you this isn't the case i brought examples from his book kash shubuhat where he declares muslims to be kafir on the issue of seeking intercession.

In the other thread when i asked you why did imam shawkani praise sheikh miaw ? you said he was possibly influenced by his dawah..

Walaal you're just going by a few selective qoutes from salafis on this, just think about it. imam shawkani allowed tawassul not only with the Prophet peace be upon Him but also righteous muslims and miaw is making takfir on muslims on the issue of seeking intercession with the righteous. If and when shawkani praised miaw would he not retract his praise of him after finding out miaw's views on intercession ?

Also that brother on twitter said there's difference of opinion on tawassul .. the sheikh who does tawassul to the prophet also said there is a difference of opinion on tawassul.. but tawassul is not the issue its istighatha to the dead seeking help from the dead person believing they can help you and have knowledge of the unseen.

That brother despite saying that omits important details, all the 4 schools allow it and it was never an issue of tawheed & shirk. Only those who followed ibn taymiyyah viewed as bidah, miaw went a step further and declared takfir on those who performed tawassul at the graves. Even with regards to istighatha it only becomes shirk if those who engage in it believe that the dead are independent of Allah. To add complexity to this issue you have scholars who permitted it

That brother from twitter knows much more about the history of miaw and doesn't disclose much of it like the takfir miaw's makes in intercession. He tries his best to diverge to an issue of istighatha only to avoid being caught out so as to speak.

Currently i am in the process of studying arabic to clear these type of misconceptions because it seems like people who know arabic with an agenda like to distort and misuse quotes

That's good learn arabic and read it for yourself laakin don't be swayed by the biases of anyone. Read up on classical work regarding the issue of tawassul, tawheed etc and compare it to what miaw came with.

 

[Muzaffer]

can someone plz explain what is happening here because I got confused?

 

[Muzaffer]

if you know arabic and you want to know who is Imam Muhammed Ibn Abdulwahab.

 

[HiraanBorn]

this is not the only reason for rebellion if the head of the state didn't provide the means of living a respected life for his people while he has the power to do that and steal the money of people. he should be overthrown and is no longer the leader that the Muslim ummah should follow.

It is a general rule among the 'ulama that rulers should not be rebelled against. This is because of the harm a failed or inconclusive rebellion can bring on the people more suffering than before it.

Hasan al-Basrī (died 110H) was a great scholar of the first Islamic century and there is no dispute regarding his credentials and immense knowledge. Ibn Saʿd relates:

“A group of Muslims came to al-Hasan al-Basrī seeking a verdict to rebel against al-Hajjāj [13] (a tyrannical and despotic general). So they said, “O Abu Saʿīd! What do you say about fighting this oppressor who has unlawfully spilt blood and unlawfully taken wealth and has done this and done that?” So al-Hasan said, “I hold that he should not be fought. If this is a punishment from Allāh, then you will not be able to remove it with your swords. If this is a trial from Allāh, then be patient until Allāh’s judgement comes, and He is the best of judges.” So they left al-Hasan, disagreed with him and rebelled against al-Hajjāj – so al-Hajjāj killed them all. Al-Hasan used to say, “If the people had patience when they are being tested by their unjust ruler, it will not be long before Allāh will give them a way out. However, they always rush for their swords, so they are left with their swords. By Allāh! Not even for a single day did they bring about any good.”

 

[HiraanBorn]

If injustice occurs against the citizen by the ruler, the parish must support the oppressed and bring down the oppressor.

Furthermore, the best way to go against an unjust ruler is to oppose him/her verbally and with your vocal retorts and also to advise the ruler privately or seek those with authority to advise him privately.

“During the rule of Wāthiq, the jurists of Baghdad gathered in front of Ahmad bin Hanbal. They included Abu Bakr bin ʿUbaid, Ibrāhīm bin ʿAlī al-Matbakhī and Fadl bin ʿĀsim. So they came to Ahmad bin Hanbal so I gave them permission. They said to him, ‘This affair (i.e. the inquisition) has become aggravated and elevated.’ They were referring to the ruler making manifest the issue of the Qurān being created and other than that. So Ahmad bin Hanbal said to them, ‘So what is it that you want?’ They said: ‘We want you to join us in saying that we are not pleased with his rule and leadership.’ So Ahmad bin Hanbal debated with them for an hour and he said to them: ‘Keep opposing [the false belief itself] with your statements but do not remove your hands from obedience and do not encourage the Muslims to rebel and do not spill your blood and the blood of the Muslims along with you. Look to the results of your actions. And remain patient until you are content with a righteous or sinful rule.’” [17]

“Ahmad [bin Hanbal] and his like did not declare these rulers to be disbelievers. Rather he believed them to have Imaan and believed in their leadership and he supplicated for them, and he was of the view that they were to be followed in the prayers and Hajj, and military expeditions were to be made with them. He prohibited rebellion against them – and it (i.e. rebellion) was never seen from the likes of him from amongst the scholars. Yet he still opposed whatever they innovated of false statements, since that was major disbelief, even if they did not know it [18]. He would oppose it and strive to refute it with whatever was possible. So there must be a combination of obeying Allāh and His Messenger in manifesting the Sunnah and Religion and opposing the innovations of the heretical Jahmites [19], and between protecting the rights of the believers, the rulers and the Ummah, even if they are ignorant innovators and transgressing sinners.” [20]

“Whosoever wishes to advise the Ruler, let him not do so openly. Rather he should take him by his hand and take him into seclusion [and advise him]. So if he accepts that from him, then it is in his favour, and if he does not accept, then at least he fulfilled his duty.” [24]

 

[HiraanBorn]

Why are you people arguing left and right over something that is generally disproved of? I will include a hadith authenticated by Al-Albaani (yes he was Salafi but he was seen as moderate):

Shirk means directing worship to anyone other than Allaah, and du’aa’ comes under the heading of worship which must be devoted to Allaah alone and not directed to anyone else. Hence the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “Du’aa’ is worship.” Narrated by al-Tirmidhi, 2969; classed as saheeh by al-Albaani in Saheeh al-Tirmidhi.

I also will show these verses from Surah al A'raaf in the noble Qur'an:

And Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“Do they attribute as partners to Allaah those who created nothing but they themselves are created?

No help can they give them, nor can they help themselves.

And if you call them to guidance, they follow you not. It is the same for you whether you call them or you keep silent.

Verily, those whom you call upon besides Allaah are slaves like you. So call upon them and let them answer you if you are truthful”

[al-A’raaf 7:191-194]

 

[AdoonkaAlle]

Why are you people arguing left and right over something that is generally disproved of? I will include a hadith authenticated by Al-Albaani (yes he was Salafi but he was seen as moderate):

Shirk means directing worship to anyone other than Allaah, and du’aa’ comes under the heading of worship which must be devoted to Allaah alone and not directed to anyone else. Hence the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “Du’aa’ is worship.” Narrated by al-Tirmidhi, 2969; classed as saheeh by al-Albaani in Saheeh al-Tirmidhi.

I also will show these verses from Surah al A'raaf in the noble Qur'an:

And Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“Do they attribute as partners to Allaah those who created nothing but they themselves are created?

No help can they give them, nor can they help themselves.

And if you call them to guidance, they follow you not. It is the same for you whether you call them or you keep silent.

Verily, those whom you call upon besides Allaah are slaves like you. So call upon them and let them answer you if you are truthful”

[al-A’raaf 7:191-194]

In surah An Nur(24) ayah 63 Allah instructs the muslims not to make dua to the Prophet the same way as they would for each other. Now the question that needs to be answered is if all dua is worship then why would Allah tell us to make dua to the Prophet, does Allah command shirk here ? The answer is no and no one believes the meaning of dua here refers to worship.


In those ayat from Surah al A'raaf Allah is refuting the false belief of the mushrikeen. The pagans believed in and worshipped other gods besides Allah. Their gods were statues that they themselves made, these idols were inanimate objects that had neither the power or ability to grant them what they wanted no matter how much they worshipped them. They ascribed attributes of Lordship to their idol gods thereby making them partners with Allah, which is shirk.

Look what ibn kathir says about the tafsir of these ayat: tafsir 7:191-195

​

Idols do not create, help, or have Power over Anything

Allah admonishes the idolators who worshipped idols, rivals and images besides Him, although these objects were created by Allah, and neither own anything nor can they bring harm or benefit. These objects do not see or give aid to those who worship them. They are inanimate objects that neither move, hear, or see. Those who worship these objects are better than they are, for they hear see and have strength of their own. Allah said,

﴿ أَيُشۡرِكُونَ مَا لَا يَخۡلُقُ شَيۡـًٔ۬ا وَهُمۡ يُخۡلَقُونَ ﴾

(Do they attribute as partners to Allah those who created nothing but they themselves are created) meaning, `Do you associate with Allah others that neither create, nor have power to create anything' Allah said in another Ayah,


﴿ يَـٰٓأَيُّهَا ٱلنَّاسُ ضُرِبَ مَثَلٌ۬ فَٱسۡتَمِعُواْ لَهُ ۥۤ‌ۚ إِنَّ ٱلَّذِينَ تَدۡعُونَ مِن دُونِ ٱللَّهِ لَن يَخۡلُقُواْ ذُبَابً۬ا وَلَوِ ٱجۡتَمَعُواْ لَهُ ۥ‌ۖ وَإِن

يَسۡلُبۡہُمُ ٱلذُّبَابُ شَيۡـًٔ۬ا لَّا يَسۡتَنقِذُوهُ مِنۡهُ‌ۚ ضَعُفَ ٱلطَّالِبُ وَٱلۡمَطۡلُوبُ • مَا قَدَرُواْ ٱللَّهَ حَقَّ قَدۡرِهِۦۤ‌ۗ إِنَّ ٱللَّهَ لَقَوِىٌّ عَزِيزٌ ﴾

(O mankind! A similitude has been coined, so listen to it (carefully): Verily, those on whom you call besides Allah, cannot create (even) a fly, even though they combine together for the purpose. And if the fly snatches away a thing from them, they will have no power to release it from the fly. So weak are (both) the seeker and the sought. They have not estimated Allah His rightful estimate. Verily, Allah is All-Strong, Almighty) (22:73-74). Allah states that if all false gods of the disbelievers gather their strength, they would not be able to create a fly. Rather, if the fly steals anything from them, no matter how insignificant, and flew away, they would not be able to retrieve it. Therefore, if an object is this weak, how can it be worshipped and invoked for provisions and aid This is why Allah said,

 

[World]

I am not a Sufi but an Athari and I disagree with what @Tamir says but no doubt MIAW was a khawarij like the modern day ISIS or Al Shabab, asking the prophet (saw) to intercede on behalf of you for example is a matter of ikhtilaaf between scholars, many great scholars believed it to be halal.

MIAW was worse than Al Shabab, he slaughtered whole villages and declared takfir on whole regions. Alhamdulilah that the Ottomans destroyed his cult, and if it weren’t for the British who conquered the Muslim lands and installed them back into power as their puppets, we wouldn’t even be having this conversation.

 

[المهندس]

Much of what miaw's did in terms of takfir, mistakes etc isn't taught at all it's the reason why you and others are finding it difficult to accept any criticism of miaw. All that you know is that he was the reviver of tawheed and was harsh against shirk, kufr etc. The image you've of him is a false one propagated by his modern followers who do their best to keep it that way.

Did you even bother to read the excerpt from kashf shubuhat ? miaw is saying that those who seek intercession with righteous are kuffar and exactly like the mushrikeen of quraysh. He deems them to be mushriks just like the mushriks of quraysh. Have a read again from the same qoute. I never once talked about istighatha. I'm citing actual statements from miaw that you can read for yourself that are in english. The book has been translated by those who subscribe themselves to the dawah of miaw.



In surah 39:3 and elsewhere in other ayah Allah tells us that the mushrikeen took awliya (protectors/guardians) besides Him. Al wali (awliyah plural) is one of the attributes of Lordship that belongs to Allah and in these ayat Allah affirms that the mushrikeen affirmed it to others beside Him ie affirmed it to their gods whom they worshipped.

Miaw completely twists this and somehow uses this as proof for him, ignoring the fact that mushriks believed their gods had the ability to protect, guard, support etc and this is why they sought intercession from their gods while the muslims who seek intercession of either the Prophet peace be upon Him or righteous muslims don't believe this nor do they believe in gods beside Allah.



I didn't ignore it as we still haven't moved passed tawassul, my first reply to you was about the issue of tawassul where you still continue to claim that miaw didn't fight people on it because as you claim he considered it to be makruh. To prove to you this isn't the case i brought examples from his book kash shubuhat where he declares muslims to be kafir on the issue of seeking intercession.



Walaal you're just going by a few selective qoutes from salafis on this, just think about it. imam shawkani allowed tawassul not only with the Prophet peace be upon Him but also righteous muslims and miaw is making takfir on muslims on the issue of seeking intercession with the righteous. If and when shawkani praised miaw would he not retract his praise of him after finding out miaw's views on intercession ?



That brother despite saying that omits important details, all the 4 schools allow it and it was never an issue of tawheed & shirk. Only those who followed ibn taymiyyah viewed as bidah, miaw went a step further and declared takfir on those who performed tawassul at the graves. Even with regards to istighatha it only becomes shirk if those who engage in it believe that the dead are independent of Allah. To add complexity to this issue you have scholars who permitted it

That brother from twitter knows much more about the history of miaw and doesn't disclose much of it like the takfir miaw's makes in intercession. He tries his best to diverge to an issue of istighatha only to avoid being caught out so as to speak.



That's good learn arabic and read it for yourself laakin don't be swayed by the biases of anyone. Read up on classical work regarding the issue of tawassul, tawheed etc and compare it to what miaw came with.

If MIAW made takfir on tawassul don't you think he would of made takfir on Imam Ahmed ?

Also why did he praise nur al haytami the shaafi scholar? furthermore shawkani not only praised him but defended him from those who attacked him and refuted them.

Scholars who are more knowledgeable then you, well informed praised him and you expect me to believe you that they were influenced and his dawah is being "hidden".


in my opinion its your own misunderstandings that you're applying to his books because you are contradicting what he said in his book durar saniyah and his actions towards sheikhs who permitted tawassul.

We can go back and forth but of course you will deny, condemn and say those who praised him where "influenced" as if you have more ilm then these ulemah..

Its funny how you accused @Omar del Sur of kibir

 

[World]

Im not ignoring anything i just believe the criticism nowadays of sheikh miaw is emotional and not backed up by sufficient evidence.. i sent a video of a sheikh who does tawassul to the prophet stating miaw did not deem it shirk but you claim miaw deemed it shirk.. it looks like you're mixing up isitighatha and tawassul.

i sent a link from a debate on twitter where proof was bought that miaw and ibn tayymiyyah were not the first ones who declared isitighatha to the dead shirk... you ignored that also

In the other thread when i asked you why did imam shawkani praise sheikh miaw ? you said he was possibly influenced by his dawah..

Also that brother on twitter said there's difference of opinion on tawassul .. the sheikh who does tawassul to the prophet also said there is a difference of opinion on tawassul.. but tawassul is not the issue its istighatha to the dead seeking help from the dead person believing they can help you and have knowledge of the unseen.

Currently i am in the process of studying arabic to clear these type of misconceptions because it seems like people who know arabic with an agenda like to distort and misuse quotes

Sxb, the earliest and one of the harshest critics of Muhammad Ibn Abdul Wahabb was his own brother Sulayman Ibn Abdul Wahabb, he was a Hanbali scholar and jurist. He refuted Muhammad Ibn Abdul Wahabb using the works of Ibn Taymiyyah. So the fact you are using the works of Ibn Taymiyyah to justify MIAW and his dawah makes no sense.

 

[المهندس]

Sxb, the earliest and one of the harshest critics of Muhammad Ibn Abdul Wahabb was his own brother Sulayman Ibn Abdul Wahabb, he was a Hanbali scholar and jurist. He refuted Muhammad Ibn Abdul Wahabb using the works of Ibn Taymiyyah. So the fact you are using the works of Ibn Taymiyyah to justify MIAW and his dawah makes no sense.

Its not ibn tayymiyah read this many hanbali hanafi scholars came with this its because we don't know arabic and we are ignorant this is why we are misinformed at the end of the day i don't want to slander any scholar on the basis of mere assumption. You know how dangerous slander against a scholar is ?


http://www.wahhabis.com/articles/as...-tawhid-shirk-rubiyyah-uluhiyyah-shafaaah.cfm -- this whole website clears misconceptions but of course the opponents of miaw will say " your influenced" or " its bias" how can it be bias when they are quoting ulemah before ibn tayymiyah and miaw who said the same thing as them.

 

[Omar del Sur]

Sxb, the earliest and one of the harshest critics of Muhammad Ibn Abdul Wahabb was his own brother Sulayman Ibn Abdul Wahabb, he was a Hanbali scholar and jurist. He refuted Muhammad Ibn Abdul Wahabb using the works of Ibn Taymiyyah. So the fact you are using the works of Ibn Taymiyyah to justify MIAW and his dawah makes no sense.

Yes and why did his brother attack him? On the basis that Sheikh Muhammad ibn Abdul Wahhab wasn't in favor of praying to saints.

now I haven't read this Divine Lightning book and I'm not going to lie about that....

but here is the article on Arabic Wikipedia about the book

الصواعق الإلهية في الرد على الوهابية - ويكيبيديا

ar.wikipedia.org

and I'm not great at Arabic... I am trying to learn Arabic but I am not fluent in Arabic or anything like that....

but if we take the beginning of the article on the Divine Lighting book and we run it through Google translate

here is what we get:

Divine Thunderbolts in Response to Wahhabism is a book written by Sulaiman bin Abdul Wahhab in which he responded to the ideas and suspicions of his brother Muhammad bin Abdul Wahhab, in which he revealed that his father and sheikhs were speculating that he would be among the people of aberration and delusion, because they saw his words, actions and tendencies in many issues, And his contradiction with the imams of the religion and the consensus of Muslims, and his atonement of the believers, so he claimed that visiting the kindergarten of the Prophet, may God bless him and grant him peace, and invoking him and the prophets, saints and righteous people, and visiting their graves is shirk. And that the call of the Prophet when begging for him is shirk, and likewise the call of other prophets, saints and righteous people when begging for them is shirk. [1]

 

[World]

Its not ibn tayymiyah read this many hanbali hanafi scholars came with this its because we don't know arabic and we are ignorant this is why we are misinformed at the end of the day i don't want to slander any scholar on the basis of mere assumption. You know how dangerous slander against a scholar is ?


http://www.wahhabis.com/articles/as...-tawhid-shirk-rubiyyah-uluhiyyah-shafaaah.cfm -- this whole website clears misconceptions but of course the opponents of miaw will say " your influenced" or " its bias" how can it be bias when they are quoting ulemah before ibn tayymiyah and miaw who said the same thing as them.

Here are some facts:

MIAW declared the majority of al-Sham to be kuffar who are worshippers of Ibn Arabi, the majority of al-Hijaz to be kuffar who do not believe in the day of resurrection. They laid siege to Makkah and starved Muslims to death. They attacked and captured towns across Yemen, Syria, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Oman and killed Muslims and they looted the cities, distributing the property of Muslims as booty. They attacked random Muslim marketplaces and stole Muslim property and killed Muslims.

All of this is in their history books and statements of MIAW which they boast about.

Even ISIS hasn’t done a thing close to this.

 

[World]

@Dawo

Do you believe that during the time of MIAW, the Ottomans and the people of Makkah were kuffar?