Somali & Horner Genetic Models

[Shimbiris]

Saho and afar are almost the same, there's a community called Irob in Ethiopia which is christian and probably mixed with habeshas. Irobs are basically Christian saho-afars.
I think we should be very careful about samples. Are Somali samples collected all across Somalia? What about Ethiopian samples, Amhara and Oromo is mostly a linguistic cultural identity

Yeah, we have samples from galbeed, the northeast, woqooyi, koonfur and Kenya in studies and commercially you have hundreds, probably thousands, of samples at this point from all over Somaliweyn. Somalis are pretty well represented in genomics. Pretty homogenous with just some rare outlier like a few NFD folks who have trace amounts (1-3%) of Bantu or the odd person who seems to show trace amounts of something like Desi along the coast or what have you. Most geeljires look pretty much the same regardless of region with lots of IBD sharing. Very homogeneous ethnic group, to be honest.

Interesting. The subsaharan competent is significantly lower than what it should be according to studies. If we add south African hunter gatherers + sub Saharan you get just a little bit more than 50% subsaharan African ancestry while it should be slightly above 60% according to most studies.
@Shimbiris

Some of the MENA components in there have SSA ancestry in them. That's not an irregular Punt result, as far as I remember.

 

[Som]

Yeah, we have samples from galbeed, the northeast, woqooyi, koonfur and Kenya in studies and commercially you have hundreds, probably thousands, of samples at this point from all over Somaliweyn. Somalis are pretty well represented in genomics. Pretty homogenous with just some rare outlier like a few NFD folks who have trace amounts (1-3%) of Bantu or the odd person who seems to show trace amounts of something like Desi along the coast or what have you. Most geeljires look pretty much the same regardless of region with lots of IBD sharing. Very homogeneous ethnic group, to be honest.



Some of the MENA components in there have SSA ancestry in them. That's not an irregular Punt result, as far as I remember.

Yes but as i can see on the chart there's no MENA, just SSA , Anatolian, Near East etc.
I guess the MENA component was already divided into near east and ssa so the total result seems 51-52% SSA if we add south African HG

 

[Shimbiris]

Yes but as i can see on the chart there's no MENA, just SSA , Anatolian, Near East etc.
I guess the MENA component was already divided into near east and ssa so the total result seems 51-52% SSA if we add south African HG

By "MENA" I obviously meant MENA components so Anatolian, Near East and so on. And again, a pretty normal result for a Somali, as far as I see. These calcs are outdated, though. Not as informative as getting your raw data plotted on global25 and doing direct modeling with ancient and modern populations. You could suss out how SSA and Eurasian or MENA and SSA he really is that way rather than with somewhat mixed ADMIXTURE components.

 

[wheel]

Interesting. The subsaharan competent is significantly lower than what it should be according to studies. If we add south African hunter gatherers + sub Saharan you get just a little bit more than 50% subsaharan African ancestry while it should be slightly above 60% according to most studies.
@Shimbiris

The only study from what i remember that had somalis above 60% was Lazaridis from 2013. I think it's flawed bc their reference pop were slightly mixed themselves.

 

[Al-Ma'mun]

Somalis range between 0% to 12% Arab ancestry (lowest Arabian ancestry in the Horn)

 

[Som]

Somalis range between 0% to 12% Arab ancestry (lowest Arabian ancestry in the Horn)

View attachment 216918

We are the most subsaharan group out of all the major horner groups like Amhara, Tigray. Oromo, Wolayta. The eurasian we have isn't even mostly yemeni
This is bad news for the ana carab folks and completely dismisses the fake legends about our alleged Arab roots

 

[wheel]

We are the most subsaharan group out of all the major horner groups like Amhara, Tigray. Oromo, Wolayta. The eurasian we have isn't even mostly yemeni
This is bad news for the ana carab folks and completely dismisses the fake legends about our alleged Arab roots

2nd most, the wolaytas have more. Major subgroups like boranas too.

 

[Al-Ma'mun]

We are the most subsaharan group out of all the major horner groups like Amhara, Tigray. Oromo, Wolayta. The eurasian we have isn't even mostly yemeni
This is bad news for the ana carab folks and completely dismisses the fake legends about our alleged Arab roots

Boranas and Wolaytas are more Sub-Saharan although the Wolaytas and Borana have more Semitic ancestry (Ethio-Semitic variety) while Somalis (depending on the individual) carry direct Yemeni admixture which is very apparent by the lack of J-P56 and the very Central Semitic Sabaic J-P58 subclades we carry (excluding those Mehri Carab Salah in PL)

Target: OROMO1 Distance: 2.4001% / 0.02400054 | ADC: 0.25x RC
65.0	Kenya_Pastoral
26.8	Ethiopia_4500BP
8.2	Yemeni_Amran

---

Target: Ethiopian_Wolayta:WOLAYTA5 Distance: 1.8731% / 0.01873060 | ADC: 0.25x RC
71.4	Kenya_Pastoral
15.4	Ethiopia_4500BP
13.2	Yemeni_Amran

---

Target: Gabiley_SL Distance: 1.9331% / 0.01933127 | ADC: 0.25x RC
100.0	Kenya_Pastoral

---

Target: Somali:SOMALI15 Distance: 2.9973% / 0.02997289 | ADC: 0.25x RC
98.2	Kenya_Pastoral
1.8	Yemeni_Amran

 

[Som]

Boranas and Wolaytas are more Sub-Saharan although the Wolaytas and Borana have more Semitic ancestry (Ethio-Semitic variety) while Somalis (depending on the individual) carry direct Yemeni admixture which is very apparent by the lack of J-P56 and the very Central Semitic Sabaic J-P58 subclades we carry (excluding those Mehri Carab Salah in PL)

Target: OROMO1 Distance: 2.4001% / 0.02400054 | ADC: 0.25x RC
65.0	Kenya_Pastoral
26.8	Ethiopia_4500BP
8.2	Yemeni_Amran

---

Target: Ethiopian_Wolayta:WOLAYTA5 Distance: 1.8731% / 0.01873060 | ADC: 0.25x RC
71.4	Kenya_Pastoral
15.4	Ethiopia_4500BP
13.2	Yemeni_Amran

---

Target: Gabiley_SL Distance: 1.9331% / 0.01933127 | ADC: 0.25x RC
100.0	Kenya_Pastoral

---

Target: Somali:SOMALI15 Distance: 2.9973% / 0.02997289 | ADC: 0.25x RC
98.2	Kenya_Pastoral
1.8	Yemeni_Amran

Still significantly less Arabian than habeshas and oromos, we probably have more in common with Masais than Yemeni Arabs

 

[Som]

2nd most, the wolaytas have more. Major subgroups like boranas too.

Boranas are less than 1 Million people, I wouldn't call them Major.
Wolayta are 5 Million, we are 20 million worldwide. If we count Oromo, Amhara, Tigray and Afar we are by a lot the least west eurasian/ middle eastern and the most subsaharan. We are twice more Dinka than habeshas and two times less Yemeni than them

 

[Shimbiris]

Boranas and Wolaytas are more Sub-Saharan although the Wolaytas and Borana have more Semitic ancestry (Ethio-Semitic variety) while Somalis (depending on the individual) carry direct Yemeni admixture which is very apparent by the lack of J-P56 and the very Central Semitic Sabaic J-P58 subclades we carry (excluding those Mehri Carab Salah in PL)

Target: OROMO1 Distance: 2.4001% / 0.02400054 | ADC: 0.25x RC
65.0	Kenya_Pastoral
26.8	Ethiopia_4500BP
8.2	Yemeni_Amran

---

Target: Ethiopian_Wolayta:WOLAYTA5 Distance: 1.8731% / 0.01873060 | ADC: 0.25x RC
71.4	Kenya_Pastoral
15.4	Ethiopia_4500BP
13.2	Yemeni_Amran

---

Target: Gabiley_SL Distance: 1.9331% / 0.01933127 | ADC: 0.25x RC
100.0	Kenya_Pastoral

---

Target: Somali:SOMALI15 Distance: 2.9973% / 0.02997289 | ADC: 0.25x RC
98.2	Kenya_Pastoral
1.8	Yemeni_Amran

Going to import some of our discussion on the other thread here cos I really do contest this notion you have that it's direct admixture and also that it honestly varies as much as it looks like because, again, Somalis are weirdly very homogeneous in terms of MENA scores and there must be a reason for that that's not adding up here:

The Arabian in Somalis is weird and probably out of wack in the models we so far have. Also, no one is at 0%, saaxiib. Even the samples you think are at 0% have at least 3% if you run the right models like Somali-15 (the least admixed I've seen by far). Anyway, what I mean by out of wack is that despite how heterogeneous the percentages are, Somali MENA scores are still EXTREMELY tight/homogeneous with a variation as low as 2% once you remove a couple of Kenyan outliers:

Leads one to believe there's something weird going on with the Arabian scores due to things like drift and it's probably more homogeneous and we'll see in time. And I'm sorry but it really doesn't look medieval at all. Outside of some obvious Mehri J-P58 clades Somalis really show no medieval haplogroup links with Arabians. None whatsoever, as far as I know. And it is factual that once you add Xabashis, Canfars, Agaws or Oromos the Arabian completely disappears. And this should really tip you off, Somalis prefer Jawf-Yemenis for their Arabian admixture source over all other Arabian groups the EXACT same way highland Ethiopians do:

It gets even worse when you use the least admixed Somali (Somali-15) as a base for "Somali":

I see no proof that this is medieval, saaxiib.

Saaxiib, I'm confused that you can write "There is no proof of it being the result of intra-horn admixture" after reading what I shared above. What more proof do you need than the above examples? And I don't know what you mean by lack of Mota. Somalis have Mota ancestry, saaxiib. At minimum 5%. And the Y-DNA issue can easily be dismissed by Somalis being dominated by T-L208 and E-Z813 founder effects as a majority nomadic group that's generally prone to such founder effects.

And I'm sorry but I find it hard to believe Southern Arabians had any real genetic effect except for maybe T-L208 a long time ago. In the Middle-Ages and Early Modern era, based on numerous accounts, it is very clear Somalis were highly suspicious of ajanabis. Ajanabis would rarely, almost never, be allowed to venture into the interior and had to always have a native Abban (a guide/sponsor) even when in the coastal towns. I'm willing to bet good money this was the case during the classical era as well. So not only would it be unlikely for some ancient Yemenis to settle on our lands and have any noticeable genetic impact but try to think about the magnitude of what you're suggesting. Some southern Arabian traders were numerous enough to effect basically ALL Somalis, including the majority reer miyi? I dunno. But some ancient migrations within the Horn by fellow East Cushites or something I can actually picture.

You also need to explain to me why Somalis' Arabian admixture looks identical to what's in Xabeshas. Put in Saudis, BedouinBs, Qataris, Yemenis of all sorts and for whatever reason we always favor al-Jawf folks the same way Tigrays and Amharas and Oromos do.

This is not necessarily true. Eastern Oromos in areas like Bale, Arsi and Hararghe who are by far the closest people to us genetically are not that high in Mota ancestry, last I checked. And those guys were largely predated by what looked to have been Sidamics and Somalis in those areas based on inspecting the Futux al-Xabasha. I imagine them to have been a conduit for this. And like I said, it is very, very strange how Somali MENA scores are EXTREMELY homogeneous once you ignore the few Boran admixed Kenyans:

That's a clearly very stabilized population. And I've seen this homogeneity remain across Somaliweyn. Galbeed to Koonfur, Jabuuti to Bari. Does it make any sense to you that one person is 3% Yemeni and another is 10% yet they all coincidentally cluster so tightly on PCAs and are pretty much equally MENA? There's something funky amok with the Yemeni scores probably to do with drift which is why sometimes folks who show 0% can suddenly show 4% or more if you run the right models.


All Yemenis carry some Horner admixture. Possibly anyway.

Still significantly less Arabian than habeshas and oromos, we probably have more in common with Masais than Yemeni Arabs

Not really. It depends on the Oromos. Not just Boranas. Oromos have a lot of variety. A lot of the eastern, central and even western ones are close to Somalis in terms of admixture levels and even overlap with us. Not to mention many Nubians and Sudani-Arabs overlap with us in admixture levels as well. Comparing us to Maasais is also nonsensical. There's a full 25% admixture difference between us and them. The highest range you will find in the Horn itself is 15%. With most Amharas it's like 7-10%.

 

[Som]

Going to import some of our discussion on the other thread here cos I really do contest this notion you have that it's direct admixture and also that it honestly varies as much as it looks like because, again, Somalis are weirdly very homogeneous in terms of MENA scores and there must be a reason for that that's not adding up here:









Not really. It depends on the Oromos. Not just Boranas. Oromos have a lot of variety. A lot of the eastern, central and even western ones are close to Somalis in terms of admixture levels and even overlap with us. Not to mention many Nubians and Sudani-Arabs overlap with us in admixture levels as well. Comparing us to Maasais is also nonsensical. There's a full 25% admixture difference between us and them. The highest range you will find in the Horn itself is 15%. With most Amharas it's like 7-10%.

I'm not saying we are like Masai. I'm saying genetically we are probably closer to them than Yemeni Arabs.
I guess it depends how you view it, to me 10% more SSA is small but still significant difference, kinda like Arabs in northafrica who are 8-10% SSA vs Arabs in the middle east who are less 1-2% SSA.

 

[wheel]

Boranas are less than 1 Million people, I wouldn't call them Major.
Wolayta are 5 Million, we are 20 million worldwide. If we count Oromo, Amhara, Tigray and Afar we are by a lot the least west eurasian/ middle eastern and the most subsaharan. We are twice more Dinka than habeshas and two times less Yemeni than them

Major subgroup as in sub tribe/clan, i guess your right regarding the borana because they'd be amongst the smallest even amongst the oromos, they are just very notable group perhaps the best known oromo clan. Im skeptical that the afran qallo and other subgroups amongst the oromos particularly those that live in the south arent more ssa. For example, i've noticed the jaarso whom are lineage wise oromo but associate with somalis look noticeably more ssa than the neighbouring gerri somali.

 

[Shimbiris]

I'm not saying we are like Masai. I'm saying genetically we are probably closer to them than Yemeni Arabs.
I guess it depends how you view it, to me 10% more SSA is small but still significant difference, kinda like Arabs in northafrica who are 8-10% SSA vs Arabs in the middle east who are less 1-2% SSA.

I would expect so. Those guys can be modeled as like half Somali-like so what would one expect. But they have lots of admixtures we lack like Niger-Congo ancestry and SE African Pygmy type ancestry. So also still a very foreign group.

And, honestly, Horners cluster more tightly than North African Vs. West Asian Arabs do:

Somalis are the turquoise bunch in the middle. If you compare where Somalis sit to where Tigrinyas, who are the most admixed Xabash group in the Horn*, sit it's more like the distance between the southernmost Palestinian Bedouin and the Lebanese.

Spoiler

You don't have permission to view the spoiler content. Log in or register now.

 

[Al-Ma'mun]

I'm not saying we are like Masai. I'm saying genetically we are probably closer to them than Yemeni Arabs.
I guess it depends how you view it, to me 10% more SSA is small but still significant difference, kinda like Arabs in northafrica who are 8-10% SSA vs Arabs in the middle east who are less 1-2% SSA.

Maghrebis are like 17% to 25% African.They are basically quadroons lol

 

[Shimbiris]

Maghrebis are like 17% to 25% African.They are basically quadroons lol

And it's so homogenous too. Even with differing admixtures like how Libyans have loads of Arabian admixture, the whole region is like 15-25% SSA. So weird to remind myself when I sometimes meet lighter skinned and blue-eyed Maghrebis that I'm looking at a saaxiib who maybe 1/4 brudda.

Spoiler

You don't have permission to view the spoiler content. Log in or register now.

 

[Idilinaa]

To substaniate what @Shimbiris have been saying on this thread about Somalis being pretty much homogenous with roots in ancient admixture and we have more in common with other HOA both Cushitic and Semetic speaking populations, they have done a recent genome wide analysis on Somalis that pretty much confirms this to be the case:

Genome-wide analyses disclose the distinctive HLA architecture and the pharmacogenetic landscape of the Somali population - Scientific Reports

African populations are underrepresented in medical genomics studies. For the Somali population, there is virtually no information on genomic markers with significance to precision medicine. Here, we analyzed nearly 900,000 genomic markers in samples collected from 95 unrelated individuals in...

www.nature.com

ADMIXTURE program for estimation of individual ancestries revealed a homogenous Somali population. Principal component analysis with PLINK software showed approximately 60% East African and 40% West Eurasian genes in the Somali population, with a close relation to the Cushitic and Semitic speaking Ethiopian populations


Our data reveal a remarkably homogeneous Somali population with roots from ancient mixtures of populations from Africa and the Middle East. We observed that a vast majority of our study individuals carried similar proportions of genes from those ancient populations, which possibly can be explained by the fact that ethnic Somalis have a strong genetic unification by endogamy, due to the custom of marrying only within the limits of their ethnic group, in addition to consanguineous practices........recent evidences based on Y-STR haplotypes studied on Somalis from diverse geographic locations and clans suggest that ethnic Somalis are largely homogenous17, supporting the representativeness of our samples for the larger Somali population.



We get further contextualization on the non-African ancestry in Somalis & HOA in another study:

Early Back-to-Africa Migration into the Horn of Africa

Author Summary The Horn of Africa (HOA) occupies a central place in our understanding of modern human origins. This region is the location of the earliest known modern human fossils, a possible source for the out-of-Africa migration, and one of the most genetically and linguistically diverse...

journals.plos.org

The non-African ancestry in the HOA, which is primarily attributed to a novel Ethio-Somali inferred ancestry component, is significantly differentiated from all neighboring non-African ancestries in North Africa, the Levant, and Arabia. The Ethio-Somali ancestry is found in all admixed HOA ethnic groups, shows little inter-individual variance within these ethnic groups, is estimated to have diverged from all other non-African ancestries by at least 23 ka, and does not carry the unique Arabian lactase persistence allele that arose about 4 ka. Taking into account published mitochondrial, Y chromosome, paleoclimate, and archaeological data, we find that the time of the Ethio-Somali back-to-Africa migration is most likely pre-agricultural.

Because there is archaeological, historical, and linguistic evidence for contact with non-African populations beginning about 3,000 years ago, it has often been assumed that the non-African ancestry in HOA populations dates to this time. In this work, we find that the genetic composition of non-African ancestry in the HOA is distinct from the genetic composition of current populations in North Africa and the Middle East. With these data, we demonstrate that most non-African ancestry in the HOA cannot be the result of admixture within the last few thousand years, and that the majority of admixture probably occurred prior to the advent of agriculture.

 

[tariq moses]

like how Libyans have loads of Arabian admixture

Are you sure about this? Are you basing this off of their Natufian ancestry relative to other Maghrebis?
I don't think I've seen them score much EBA Jordanian.

 

[Al-Ma'mun]

Are you sure about this? Are you basing this off of their Natufian ancestry relative to other Maghrebis?
I don't think I've seen them score much EBA Jordanian.

Some Libyans are heavily Arabian while others are more Berber.There is also the fact that they neighbor Egypt with a heavily Natufian admixed population on the Delta and the Nile Valley, so perhaps some of that extra Natufian is indeed pre-Arabian invasion

 

[Al-Ma'mun]

@Shimbiris How large was this Semitic migration to the Horn? Even the Omotic Wolaytas deep in Ethiopia are scoring more Arabian ancestry then us...Mengistu was probably a few percentages more Arab then me

Target: Ethiopian_Wolayta:WOLAYTA7 Distance: 1.6401% / 0.01640054 | ADC: 0.25x RC
65.6	Kenya_Pastoral
26.0	Ethiopia_4500BP
8.4	Yemeni_Amran

---

Target: Ethiopian_Wolayta:WOLAYTA5 Distance: 1.8731% / 0.01873060 | ADC: 0.25x RC
71.4	Kenya_Pastoral
15.4	Ethiopia_4500BP
13.2	Yemeni_Amran

---

Target: Ethiopian_Wolayta:WOLAYTA1 Distance: 2.4861% / 0.02486121 | ADC: 0.25x RC
72.6	Kenya_Pastoral
15.8	Ethiopia_4500BP
11.6	Yemeni_Amran

Target: AlMamun_scaled Distance: 2.0580% / 0.02057952 | ADC: 0.25x RC
93.4	Kenya_Pastoral
6.6	Yemeni_Amran