Omar del Sur
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Imam Hanbal didn't speak out against the ruler who imprisoned and tortured him for refusing to say the Quran is created. So according to your logic, what you say would apply to Imam Hanbal as well.
Saudi Authorities Increase Prison Sentence of Sheikh Nasser Al-Omar from 10 to 30 Years
- Thread starter AMusee
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Imam Hanbal didn't speak out against the ruler who imprisoned and tortured him for refusing to say the Quran is created. So according to your logic, what you say would apply to Imam Hanbal as well.
World
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Again with the more lies. He didn’t speak out against Saudi rulers. He spoke out against liberalism, night clubs, raves, alcohol. He has never criticised Saudi leaders. Do you want an Imam to support liberalism, night clubs, rave and alcohol?
Omar del Sur
VIP
I think you're being overly aggressive with me. We agree on a lot.
Anyways, you called my behavior shameful and spoke about me in a very harsh way because I don't speak out against mbs. But Imam Hanbal didn't speak out against the ruler who imprisoned and tortured him for refusing to say the Quran is created. So your harsh rhetoric against me would apply to him as well. Unless you applied a double standard, you would have to treat Imam Hanbal the same way.
Omar del Sur
VIP
also if we're taking the position that riling people up against governments of Muslim countries is the thing to do and refusing to do so makes one a shameful "Madkhali" (and apparently Imam Hanbal was a "Madkhali" as well)... and if we're taking the position that we should go after these countries based on which ones cave to liberalism... we should be starting from the most liberal Muslim country and then Saudi should be one of the last countries on the list... so from that set of premises I am baffled as to how I'm supposed to conclude that going after one of the most conservative Muslim countries is the thing to do
World
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I don’t see why you can’t just condemn what is obviously wrong. You are not a Saudi citizen but a guy that lives half way across the other side of the world on the internet. How can you speak out against liberalism but yet stay silent when that same liberalism is being imported into the holy cities of Islam?
GuanYu
Custom title
I am not even sure why you 2 are arguing, you guys seem to be in sync with what you guys are saying.
Am i missing something here?
Bundasliga
VIP
Isnt your ruler joe Biden though
Omar del Sur
VIP
I'm a little baffled at the insistence of some here on this position.
If you go to Somalia and you give a sermon at a mosque in Somalia- do you think it's a good idea to give an inflammatory sermon against the government? Realistically speaking, what is going to happen?
If you put out tons of inflammatory material against the Somali government and you rile people up against the Somali government, what is that going to lead to? You publicly make takfir on the government, what will that lead to?
What you would be promoting is the ideological basis of Al-Shabaab.
Why should we avoid riling people up against the government? Look at Syria. Look at Yemen. Look at what Somalia is fighting against.
You get into the "the rulers are apostates, sellout" rhetoric- you are laying the groundwork for violence and chaos in the society. It's very serious.
That's why Imam Hanbal didn't speak openly against the ruler that imprisoned him. It had nothing to do with being afraid of him.
And I saw the Al-Shabaab documentary that was put out recently. There was a thread on it here. I saw- they were interviewing one of the Al-Shabaab people and it was that exact "the rulers are sellout, apostate" rhetoric.
This is why you don't rile people up against the governments in the Muslim countries. And it's not from the approach of ahlus sunnah. And it's why Imam Hanbal didn't do it.
It has nothing to do with being afraid of the ruler.
There's the riling the people up against the ruler approach- and this is what's seen if you look at the rhetoric of groups like Al Qaeda and Al-Shabaab. You can go with that approach or you can go with the approach of Imam Hanbal. I want to be like Imam Hanbal so I go with that approach. And it's what's taught by the scholars of ahlus sunnah. This is one of the reasons why adhering to the scholars is so important.
Omar del Sur
VIP
if this comment was serious then it shows a serious lack of understanding. this principle when it comes to the rulers of the Muslim countries- it applies whether we're talking about the ruler in Indonesia, Pakistan, etc. It doesn't just apply where you are located.
Omar del Sur
VIP
you don't have to take it from me, take it from Sheikh Uthaymeen (and you don't have to take it from him either, he's only one of numerous scholars who have talked about this):
Shaykh Uthaymeen said, “…There is an issue now[days]: some people, out of their pride and honor for the religion of Allah, if they see crimes and evil deeds among the people which may be circulated in the newspapers, radio stations, or seen on some satellite channels, they begin attacking and accusing the government of falling short and being responsible for these things.
They go and publicize the faults of the government among the people, inciting the hearts against the leadership. In turn, this causes the people to begin hating the authorities over them. This is actually a very serious mistake contradictory to Islamic legislation, dangerous to the society, and a cause for future trials and tribulations. If such people would only rush to advise and correct the society starting with themselves, it would have been better for them.
For example, those things circulated by the various means of communication, whether written, heard, or seen these people should rather warn others from those specific issues (instead of warning against the government).
For example, they could warn against certain magazines, against watching certain shows which are harmful to ones religion and life.
They could warn people from dealing with usury, for example. If the whole society begins to rectify and improve itself, the leader, as part of this society, would likewise improve .
As for those who pour out their so called pride and honor for Islam upon the leaders in this way and is without doubt a wrong approach. You all know the great afflictions that occurred during the time of.
Rather, it even began earlier during the time of Uthmaan which resulted in major calamities and people began declaring lawful the taking of other [opposing and criticizing the leadership] to be incorrect and forbidden by Islam.
If a person really had true pride and honor [for this religion], then he would direct others to that which is good. But amazingly, you find some people complaining and accusing the leaders, while therere people in his society making Shirk, worshipping others besides Allah [Shirk is much greater than whatever sins are committed by the leaders].
Or he may come and try to twist the meanings of some verses of the Quran to be in accordance with his desires.
So for example, he quotes the verse, “And whoever does not rule by that which Allah has revealed those, they are the disbelievers.” [Surah al-Midah, 5:44]
He then says that based upon this, every law and statute that opposes Islamic legislation is disbelief! This is also very wrong. Even if we were to assume the extreme that a leader is a disbeliever, does this then mean we can incite the people to oppose him, even if it causes revolt, chaos, and killing? This is definitely wrong.
The kind of rectification and improvement desired will never come by this approach.
Rather, the only thing it will bring is great corruption because if, for example, a group of people rise up in opposition to the leaders of some country and those leaders have strength and authority that the opposing insurgents do not have, what will happen?
Will this insignificant minority prevail? It will not.
On the contrary, the opposite will happen. Evil and anarchy will result and the public affairs will be in complete disorder. It is essential that an individual looks first from the Islamic legislative point of view and not just blindly look at the texts (of the Quran or sunnah) from a single perspective. We should consider all the texts together. A person should also look at the situation with the eye of intellect and wisdom.
What will come about from this thing?
So, we believe these ways of rectification [criticizing the leaders, rebellion, etc.] to be wrong and very dangerous. It is not permissible for anyone to support or assist someone in such things. One must instead clearly reject these we speak in general terms…
So the individual must look at the reality of his government and country and not go around publicizing and spreading the faults of his rulers, whether they are excused due to some reasons or not. These people are often blind to the overall well-being and benefit of the nation. Such a government may have something of good within it. Overlooking this and focusing on its faults is not justice.
Allah says, “Oh you who believe, stand up firmly for Allah and be just witnesses and just, that is closer to righteousness.” [Srah al-Mdah, 5:8]…”
Ref: Taken from the casette, Adf al-amalt al-miyyah id Wul Bild al-aramayn
abdulkareemibnozzie.wordpress.com
A Analysis Of Those Who Talk About The Muslim Rulers In Public – Shaykh Uthaymeen
Shaykh Uthaymeen said, “…There is an issue now[days]: some people, out of their pride and honor for the religion of Allah, if they see crimes and evil deeds among the people which may be circulated in the newspapers, radio stations, or seen on some satellite channels, they begin attacking and accusing the government of falling short and being responsible for these things.
They go and publicize the faults of the government among the people, inciting the hearts against the leadership. In turn, this causes the people to begin hating the authorities over them. This is actually a very serious mistake contradictory to Islamic legislation, dangerous to the society, and a cause for future trials and tribulations. If such people would only rush to advise and correct the society starting with themselves, it would have been better for them.
For example, those things circulated by the various means of communication, whether written, heard, or seen these people should rather warn others from those specific issues (instead of warning against the government).
For example, they could warn against certain magazines, against watching certain shows which are harmful to ones religion and life.
They could warn people from dealing with usury, for example. If the whole society begins to rectify and improve itself, the leader, as part of this society, would likewise improve .
As for those who pour out their so called pride and honor for Islam upon the leaders in this way and is without doubt a wrong approach. You all know the great afflictions that occurred during the time of.
Rather, it even began earlier during the time of Uthmaan which resulted in major calamities and people began declaring lawful the taking of other [opposing and criticizing the leadership] to be incorrect and forbidden by Islam.
If a person really had true pride and honor [for this religion], then he would direct others to that which is good. But amazingly, you find some people complaining and accusing the leaders, while therere people in his society making Shirk, worshipping others besides Allah [Shirk is much greater than whatever sins are committed by the leaders].
Or he may come and try to twist the meanings of some verses of the Quran to be in accordance with his desires.
So for example, he quotes the verse, “And whoever does not rule by that which Allah has revealed those, they are the disbelievers.” [Surah al-Midah, 5:44]
He then says that based upon this, every law and statute that opposes Islamic legislation is disbelief! This is also very wrong. Even if we were to assume the extreme that a leader is a disbeliever, does this then mean we can incite the people to oppose him, even if it causes revolt, chaos, and killing? This is definitely wrong.
The kind of rectification and improvement desired will never come by this approach.
Rather, the only thing it will bring is great corruption because if, for example, a group of people rise up in opposition to the leaders of some country and those leaders have strength and authority that the opposing insurgents do not have, what will happen?
Will this insignificant minority prevail? It will not.
On the contrary, the opposite will happen. Evil and anarchy will result and the public affairs will be in complete disorder. It is essential that an individual looks first from the Islamic legislative point of view and not just blindly look at the texts (of the Quran or sunnah) from a single perspective. We should consider all the texts together. A person should also look at the situation with the eye of intellect and wisdom.
What will come about from this thing?
So, we believe these ways of rectification [criticizing the leaders, rebellion, etc.] to be wrong and very dangerous. It is not permissible for anyone to support or assist someone in such things. One must instead clearly reject these we speak in general terms…
So the individual must look at the reality of his government and country and not go around publicizing and spreading the faults of his rulers, whether they are excused due to some reasons or not. These people are often blind to the overall well-being and benefit of the nation. Such a government may have something of good within it. Overlooking this and focusing on its faults is not justice.
Allah says, “Oh you who believe, stand up firmly for Allah and be just witnesses and just, that is closer to righteousness.” [Srah al-Mdah, 5:8]…”
Ref: Taken from the casette, Adf al-amalt al-miyyah id Wul Bild al-aramayn
A Analysis Of Those Who Talk About The Muslim Rulers In Public – Shaykh Uthaymeen
Shaykh Uthaymeen said, “…There is an issue now[days]: some people, out of their pride and honor for the religion of Allah, if they see crimes and evil deeds among the people which may b…
abdulkareemibnozzie.wordpress.com
Both recent threads of Imams being unjustly imprisoned by Saudi liberal leader MBS is about them doing this exact thing, warning society against evil and corruption like the governments liberal agenda.you don't have to take it from me, take it from Sheikh Uthaymeen (and you don't have to take it from him either, he's only one of numerous scholars who have talked about this):
A Analysis Of Those Who Talk About The Muslim Rulers In Public – Shaykh Uthaymeen
Shaykh Uthaymeen said, “…There is an issue now[days]: some people, out of their pride and honor for the religion of Allah, if they see crimes and evil deeds among the people which may be circulated in the newspapers, radio stations, or seen on some satellite channels, they begin attacking and accusing the government of falling short and being responsible for these things.
They go and publicize the faults of the government among the people, inciting the hearts against the leadership. In turn, this causes the people to begin hating the authorities over them. This is actually a very serious mistake contradictory to Islamic legislation, dangerous to the society, and a cause for future trials and tribulations. If such people would only rush to advise and correct the society starting with themselves, it would have been better for them.
For example, those things circulated by the various means of communication, whether written, heard, or seen these people should rather warn others from those specific issues (instead of warning against the government).
For example, they could warn against certain magazines, against watching certain shows which are harmful to ones religion and life.
They could warn people from dealing with usury, for example. If the whole society begins to rectify and improve itself, the leader, as part of this society, would likewise improve .
As for those who pour out their so called pride and honor for Islam upon the leaders in this way and is without doubt a wrong approach. You all know the great afflictions that occurred during the time of.
Rather, it even began earlier during the time of Uthmaan which resulted in major calamities and people began declaring lawful the taking of other [opposing and criticizing the leadership] to be incorrect and forbidden by Islam.
If a person really had true pride and honor [for this religion], then he would direct others to that which is good. But amazingly, you find some people complaining and accusing the leaders, while therere people in his society making Shirk, worshipping others besides Allah [Shirk is much greater than whatever sins are committed by the leaders].
Or he may come and try to twist the meanings of some verses of the Quran to be in accordance with his desires.
So for example, he quotes the verse, “And whoever does not rule by that which Allah has revealed those, they are the disbelievers.” [Surah al-Midah, 5:44]
He then says that based upon this, every law and statute that opposes Islamic legislation is disbelief! This is also very wrong. Even if we were to assume the extreme that a leader is a disbeliever, does this then mean we can incite the people to oppose him, even if it causes revolt, chaos, and killing? This is definitely wrong.
The kind of rectification and improvement desired will never come by this approach.
Rather, the only thing it will bring is great corruption because if, for example, a group of people rise up in opposition to the leaders of some country and those leaders have strength and authority that the opposing insurgents do not have, what will happen?
Will this insignificant minority prevail? It will not.
On the contrary, the opposite will happen. Evil and anarchy will result and the public affairs will be in complete disorder. It is essential that an individual looks first from the Islamic legislative point of view and not just blindly look at the texts (of the Quran or sunnah) from a single perspective. We should consider all the texts together. A person should also look at the situation with the eye of intellect and wisdom.
What will come about from this thing?
So, we believe these ways of rectification [criticizing the leaders, rebellion, etc.] to be wrong and very dangerous. It is not permissible for anyone to support or assist someone in such things. One must instead clearly reject these we speak in general terms…
So the individual must look at the reality of his government and country and not go around publicizing and spreading the faults of his rulers, whether they are excused due to some reasons or not. These people are often blind to the overall well-being and benefit of the nation. Such a government may have something of good within it. Overlooking this and focusing on its faults is not justice.
Allah says, “Oh you who believe, stand up firmly for Allah and be just witnesses and just, that is closer to righteousness.” [Srah al-Mdah, 5:8]…”
Ref: Taken from the casette, Adf al-amalt al-miyyah id Wul Bild al-aramayn
A Analysis Of Those Who Talk About The Muslim Rulers In Public – Shaykh Uthaymeen
Shaykh Uthaymeen said, “…There is an issue now[days]: some people, out of their pride and honor for the religion of Allah, if they see crimes and evil deeds among the people which may b…
Omar del Sur
VIP
This campaign of riling people against Saudi isn't what Sheikh Uthaymeen was calling to.
I dont care about your concern for the liberal tyrant MBS while you excuse righteous scholars being imprisoned by him. I do not understand why you bother when it is apparent you are only concerned about protecting a tyrant while using the deen.
The Saudi Regime you constantly defend is a creation of and maintained by the liberal world order. You are the one defending liberalizing muslims and supporting imprisonment of scholars who defend Islam.
Omar del Sur
VIP
How is it using the deen that I would rather follow the scholars rather than take this emotional approach to things? This is exactly what Sheikh Uthaymeen was warning about. Yes, I would rather follow Sheikh Uthaymeen than follow anonymous people on SomaliSpot.
This whole approach is inviting trouble. If you look at the rhetoric of Al Shabaab and Al Qaeda when it comes to the governments, it's the same kind of rhetoric. All this does is lead to stirring up trouble. And for all this talk of liberalism, Saudi is still one of the most conservative countries in the Muslim world (btw I don't think I've ever met a liberal who didn't rabidly hate Saudi Arabia... pretty much all liberals have an intense hatred of Saudi unless they somehow haven't heard much about Saudi... you can trigger liberals just by mentioning Saudi).
And who stands to benefit from all this riling the people up against Saudi?
Iran. Sufis. Homo agenda. Feminism. Liberalism. Westernization of Islam.
Right now we are looking at Iran threatening to basically take over the Middle East. Sunnis should be uniting to stand up to the rafidah aggression and expansionism that is seeking to take over the region and instead we have this kind of thing which is basically promoting civil war and chaos amongst Sunnis.
What would this lead to? Sunni Muslims killing each other- while Iran advances closer to its goal of taking over the region.
Look at Syria. Ethnic cleansing of Sunnis backed by Iran. Iraq. Ethnic cleansing of Sunnis backed by Iran. Yemen. War against Sunnis backed by Iran. Lebanon- shia hezbushaytaan taking over the country, backed by Iran.
All this does is play directly into the hands of Iranian expansionism.
Look what happened when the US removed Saddam. Saddam was a big counterweight to Iran and his removal was a huge boost to Iranian expansionism. The same would happen if you removed Saudi. Saudi is an important counterweight to this Iranian threat.
It is conservative despite MBS and the saudi regime not because of it and wont be for long if he gets his way. I have posted some recent examples. The scholars are the ones being imprisoned.
As for Iran, it is the Saudi regime and other western projects in the region that have worked to destroy Muslim nations for a century and now they live in constant fear of a minority of shias in a world that 90% of 2 billion muslims are Sunni, because they know Sunnis have no sympathy for the zionist regime.
Omar del Sur
VIP
It wasn't long ago that Osama Bin Laden was pushing this same kind of rhetoric in regards to Saudi.
I can see why innovation is so serious. You are going exactly the route the scholars have warned against and you are proud of it and call others to it.
This false minhaj of making stirring people up against rulers this central thing of the dīn... it is closer to the khawarij and to groups like the Marxists than to the correct minhaj.
