Quran 33:53

[Kafir]

Even if you to remove Islam from me(the belief in Allah and the Quran), My moral stance would still be the same as Prophet Muhammad SAW. If I was an atheist i still would love the Sharia. So what do you mean remove Islam from me? Are you male or female? And how did you become ex Muslim?

I'm not interested in changing your morals. I'm interested in changing your beliefs about what exactly happened with Muhammad in that cave. I also want you to resist my influence too. I enjoy it when Muslims put up a fight. I enjoy it when they perform mental gymnastics. I enjoy it when they squeal and avoid questions. Are you that way? Or are you more honest about evidence and aren't stubbornly married to certain beliefs? Before we begin our one on one session, I want you to know that I'm not that way. I'm not stubbornly non-Muslim. I'm fully willing to embrace your beliefs and religion provided the evidence.

I'm a man. I stopped being Muslim around the age 16. To be quite honest I was only concerned about religion for maybe 3 years tops from 13 to 16. My family was never religious.

 

[LI0N7]

I'm not interested in changing your morals. I'm interested in changing your beliefs about what exactly happened with Muhammad in that cave. I also want you to resist my influence too. I enjoy it when Muslims put up a fight. I enjoy it when they perform mental gymnastics. I enjoy it when they squeal and avoid questions. Are you that way? Or are you more honest about evidence and aren't stubbornly married to certain beliefs? Before we begin our one on one session, I want you to know that I'm not that way. I'm not stubbornly non-Muslim. I'm fully willing to embrace your beliefs and religion provided the evidence.

I'm a man. I stopped being Muslim around the age 16. To be quite honest I was only concerned about religion for maybe 3 years tops from 13 to 16. My family was never religious.

Im not chickening out but it's pretty late right now so hopefully we can discuss that tommorrow.

But what are the values that you will like to see implemented in the Somali Community or in Somalia?

 

[Kafir]

Im not chickening out but it's pretty late right now so hopefully we can discuss that tommorrow.

But what are the values that you will like to see implemented in the Somali Community or in Somalia?

Take your time. Hours, days, weeks, it's all the same. I'm not motivated by any noble causes or desire to improve the Somali community by militantly spreading kafirnimo. I do it for my own personal amusement. Whenever this topic gets stale I also enjoy arguing with people about Somali history on the side. Earlier you asked if I was on reddit or twitter. I'm not on twitter but I am on reddit. I was banned from the Islam subreddit because of my shenanigans and migrated over here. There isn't much moderation on this website so seeds of doubt that are planted can grow and atheism can fester. I enjoy that aspect about SomaliSpot.

 

[LI0N7]

Take your time. Hours, days, weeks, it's all the same. I'm not motivated by any noble causes or desire to improve the Somali community by militantly spreading kafirnimo. I do it for my own personal amusement. Whenever this topic gets stale I also enjoy arguing with people about Somali history on the side. Earlier you asked if I was on reddit or twitter. I'm not on twitter but I am on reddit. I was banned from the Islam subreddit because of my shenanigans and migrated over here. There isn't much moderation on this website so seeds of doubt that are planted can grow and atheism can fester. I enjoy that aspect about SomaliSpot.

Shenanigans meaning insulting their beliefs and not constructive criticism. Your profile pic says a lot too. You also made a thread about spreading kafirnimo in the Somali community. Secularism and LGBT is degeneracy. Leaving Islam leads to degeneracy. That why most Somali ex Muslims are of that ilk. Religion is good because it keeps you from being degenerate. Jordan Peterson knows.

 

[Kafir]

Shenanigans meaning insulting their beliefs and not constructive criticism. Your profile pic says a lot too. You also made a thread about spreading kafirnimo in the Somali community. Secularism and LGBT is degeneracy. Leaving Islam leads to degeneracy. That why most Somali ex Muslims are of that ilk.

Making it your personal mission to make people uncomfortable has the side-effect of people becoming uncomfortable. I could've been more gentle approaching this topic knowing that these are deeply and closely held beliefs I'm ridiculing when criticizing Islam and I probably would have convinced more people about my view points doing that. But getting people to leave Islam is second to making them uncomfortable. It's second to being entertained. My profile picture is of some pigeons shitting on the kaaba. It isn't directed to you as much as it's directed to Muslims who like to claim birds never fly over the kaaba. But yes it's also to upset people.

There are Muslims who won't be upset however. If you aren't married to a certain belief you won't be hurt by criticism or ridicule against that belief. We both believe the earth is round. We are pretty firm in that belief, but there is no emotion involved in it. If a flat-earther ridiculed the round earth belief you wouldn't be offended. You would think that person is a moron, but not hurt. I'm suggesting religion be approached in the same way. That there shouldn't be emotion involved. The only thing that should concern you is whether or not there is good evidence for that belief. Without this emotion you won't be married to any ideology and be motivated purely by intellectual honesty. I could argue against your claim that secularism leads to degeneracy but instead I will tell you that isn't something that should motivate your belief in Islam. Whether Islam prevents degeneracy doesn't mean the religion is true. There is one thing and one thing only that should be on your mind and that is evidence.

 

[LI0N7]

Making it your personal mission to make people uncomfortable has the side-effect of people becoming uncomfortable. I could've been more gentle approaching this topic knowing that these are deeply and closely held beliefs I'm ridiculing when criticizing Islam and I probably would have convinced more people about my view points doing that. But getting people to leave Islam is second to making them uncomfortable. It's second to being entertained. My profile picture is of some pigeons shitting on the kaaba. It isn't directed to you as much as it's directed to Muslims who like to claim birds never fly over the kaaba. But yes it's also to upset people.

There are Muslims who won't be upset however. If you aren't married to a certain belief you won't be hurt by criticism or ridicule against that belief. We both believe the earth is round. We are pretty firm in that belief, but there is no emotion involved in it. If a flat-earther ridiculed the round earth belief you wouldn't be offended. You would think that person is a moron, but not hurt. I'm suggesting religion be approached in the same way. That there shouldn't be emotion involved. The only thing that should concern you is whether or not there is good evidence for that belief. Without this emotion you won't be married to any ideology and be motivated purely by intellectual honesty. I could argue against your claim that secularism leads to degeneracy but instead I will tell you that isn't something that should motivate your belief in Islam. Whether Islam prevents degeneracy doesn't mean the religion is true. There is one thing and one thing only that should be on your mind and that is evidence.

Going to Beliefs, I'll assume you don't believe in God.

Now let’s break down the argument. Four possibilities to explain how something was created or came into being or existence:

• Created by nothing
• Self-created
• Created by something created: “or did they create the heavens and the Earth?”, which implies a created thing being ultimately created by something else created.
• Created by something uncreated: “Rather, they are not certain”, implying that the denial of God is baseless, and therefore the statement implies that there is an uncreated creator.

Your opinion on this?

 

[UpRightDown]

The ayah mentioned above by kafir is not self serving for the Prophet, because this ayah was for the Sahabah behaviour for the Prophet. The Prophet has a big job if the Prophet made the Quran why would it have ayahs O Muhammad, because these ayah's were tasks that prophet has to do. When the prophet passed away this ayah was the revelation and a law for the sahabah alive of the Prophet era.

 

[Kafir]

I'm not using that to disprove Islam nor secularism. My point is that even if I was to disbelieve in Islam I would still try to spread as much as I can as a way of life.

Going to Beliefs, I'll assume you don't believe in God.

Now let’s break down the argument. Four possibilities to explain how something was created or came into being or existence:

• Created by nothing
• Self-created
• Created by something created: “or did they create the heavens and the Earth?”, which implies a created thing being ultimately created by something else created.
• Created by something uncreated: “Rather, they are not certain”, implying that the denial of God is baseless, and therefore the statement implies that there is an uncreated creator.

Your opinion on this?

Your last point begs the question about what created the uncreated though. If the idea that the universe was uncreated is too outlandish to believe it will also apply to an uncreated being. Not only that, but having no idea where or how the universe came to be doesn't automatically mean inserting an answer without evidence in there. I imagine people centuries ago in Somalia were in the same position not knowing why it rained and out of that ignorance simply inserted a god as the answer. Here we are today not knowing where this universe came from and here today are people who want to (without evidence) insert a god as the answer. Going down this rabbit hole ultimately means believing in the god of the gaps.

This is only scratching the surface however. Right now you're arguing on behalf of theism in a broad sense. Not only do you believe in a god, but a specific god. This specific god also is supposed to have wanted to communicate to mankind. Does it not seem a bit strange to you that the method chosen by this god was indistinguishable from any of the fake religions? An all-powerful being could pick a better method than speaking to one person indirectly and want everyone else to believe from hearsay. This is an important message to mind you, this god would definitely want to get this message across no? What's more likely? That this is what really happened or Islam is just another one of countless fake religions from history. Do you believe Muhammad's story because you found it convincing? or do you believe it because you just so happened to be born into a family that practiced this religion?

 

[Kafir]

The ayah mentioned above by kafir is not self serving for the Prophet, because this ayah was for the Sahabah behaviour for the Prophet. The Prophet has a big job if the Prophet made the Quran why would it have ayahs O Muhammad, because these ayah's were tasks that prophet has to do. When the prophet passed away this ayah was the revelation and a law for the sahabah alive of the Prophet era.

I see. So the self-serving nature was just a coincidence. Okay. If the sahaba were the audience of this verse then you would have no issue removing it from the Quran right? Its value is gone theologically. Why didn't Muhammad want others to marry his wives after he died? He married widows himself.

 

[UpRightDown]

I see. So the self-serving nature was just a coincidence. Okay. If the sahaba were the audience of this verse then you would have no issue removing it from the Quran right? It's value is gone theologically. Why didn't Muhammad want others to marry his wives after he died? He married widows himself.

No, there is no need of removing the verse because removal of verse in the Quran is haraam, how do you really understand how value in theology?

The second question, the prophet did not let people remarry his wives because

قال رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم : سألت ربي عز وجل أن لا أزوج أحدا من أمتي ، ولا أتزوج إلا كان معي في الجنة فأعطاني

Allah's Messenger (pbuh) said: 'I asked Allah that I marry none of my people but she be with me in the Heaven and I was granted.' (Mustadrik Al-Hakim, Hadith 4650. Hakim termed it as Sahih)


قال رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم : المرأة لآخر أزواجها

Allah’s Messenger (pbuh) said: ‘[In the Paradise,] a woman will be with her last husband.’(Tabaqaat Abu Shaikh p.270. Albani classified it as Sahih in Silsala Sahiha H. 1281)

 

[Kafir]

No, there is no need of removing the verse because removal of verse in the Quran is haraam, how do you really understand how value in theology?

The second question, the prophet did not let people remarry his wives because

قال رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم : سألت ربي عز وجل أن لا أزوج أحدا من أمتي ، ولا أتزوج إلا كان معي في الجنة فأعطاني

Allah's Messenger (pbuh) said: 'I asked Allah that I marry none of my people but she be with me in the Heaven and I was granted.' (Mustadrik Al-Hakim, Hadith 4650. Hakim termed it as Sahih)


قال رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم : المرأة لآخر أزواجها

Allah’s Messenger (pbuh) said: ‘[In the Paradise,] a woman will be with her last husband.’(Tabaqaat Abu Shaikh p.270. Albani classified it as Sahih in Silsala Sahiha H. 1281)

So although it has no value to anyone today it's stuck in the Quran because it is after all from God himself. The Quran isn't getting rid of anything so that verse is still there like a dead tooth. Okay. So why did Muhammad marry widows himself? Their original husbands would have wanted them in the hereafter the same way Muhammad wanted his many wives in the hereafter on top of his eternal virgins. That doesn't sound fair to me. Plus this is the behaviour of cult leaders, a true prophet of god should avoid similarities with them. Taking multiple sex partners for himself while limiting it for others is the behaviour of Jim Jones and Joseph Smith.

 

[LI0N7]

 

[Kafir]

Nobody made a claim about the purpose of life. This video isn't relevant to this thread because it's a response to something nobody here made. Lion, is it a coincidence that you just so happened to be born into the one true religion?

 

[LI0N7]

Nobody made a claim about the purpose of life. This video isn't relevant to this thread because it's a response to something nobody here made. Lion, is it a coincidence that you just so happened to be born into the one true religion?

What is your position on this? Is it morally wrong?

 

[LI0N7]

Genuine question. How can an atheist claim that it's morally wrong? Always wanted to know the answer to that.

 

[Kafir]

Genuine question. How can an atheist claim that it's morally wrong? Always wanted to know the answer to that.

I do find incest to be disgusting on a fundamental level. What motivates this disgust is the same motivation you have. It's on a human instinct level, the difference between you and myself however is that you mistakenly attribute it to religion. Here's the thing about disgust, it works from a different part of your brain than from the part dealing with rational thought. Feeling disgust isn't obligatorily associated with rationality. Not only that, but the disgust that comes out of incest can actually be explained from an evolutionary perspective. Disgust from incest is as natural as finding sweet tasting foods to be enjoyable, a trait that is selected for during evolution. Those who had that feeling didn't themselves commit incest and were more likely to produce more viable offspring. With that being said, I wouldn't for instance try to have it outlawed. Why? If there are people who are committing incest but aren't reproducing, it has no bearing on anyone other than themselves. Finding it disgusting isn't enough for me to interfere. I could try to explain to them how disgusting incest is as best as I could, but in this case it wouldn't be out of rationality.

Earlier in this thread I made a point about evidence being the one important thing on this topic. What you are arguing for right now about incest isn't proving Islam to be true. Your motivation is to say secularism promotes degeneracy, rather than proving that Islam is true. What I'm asking from you right now is exactly that. Proof for Islam. Now I'll ask my question again: Is it purely coincidental that you happened to be born into the one true religion?

 

[TekNiKo]

The religion is made up by muhammad abti

May Allah guide you! Verily they have sold their soul for a cheap price. Muhammad is but a messenger of God!

 

[Kafir]

May Allah guide you! Verily they have sold their soul for a cheap price. Muhammad is but a messenger of God!

How do you know this?

 

[LI0N7]

I do find incest to be disgusting on a fundamental level. What motivates this disgust is the same motivation you have. It's on a human instinct level, the difference between you and myself however is that you mistakenly attribute it to religion. Here's the thing about disgust, it works from a different part of your brain than from the part dealing with rational thought. Feeling disgust isn't obligatorily associated with rationality. Not only that, but the disgust that comes out of incest can actually be explained from an evolutionary perspective. Disgust from incest is as natural as finding sweet tasting foods to be enjoyable, a trait that is selected for during evolution. Those who had that feeling didn't themselves commit incest and were more likely to produce more viable offspring. With that being said, I wouldn't for instance try to have it outlawed. Why? If there are people who are committing incest but aren't reproducing, it has no bearing on anyone other than themselves. Finding it disgusting isn't enough for me to interfere. I could try to explain to them how disgusting incest is as best as I could, but in this case it wouldn't be out of rationality.

Earlier in this thread I made a point about evidence being the one important thing on this topic. What you are arguing for right now about incest isn't proving Islam to be true. What I'm asking from you right now is exactly that. Proof for Islam. Now I'll ask my question again: Is it purely coincidental that you happened to be born into the one true religion?

Finding something disgusting or enjoyable doesn't dictate whether it's morally acceptable or not.

If I find fish to be disgusting does that mean it is haram?

In fact the question was how can an atheist deem it to be morally wrong, not whether you find it disgusting or not.

Nowhere in my posts have i attributed the disgust from incest to religion. Stop lying.

I asked if two consenting adults who happen to be brother and sister and who don't have the ability to produce offspring have intercourse with each other, is it morally wrong? If so provide evidence.

 

[Suave]

Just like Aisha said.
"I feel that your Lord hastens in fulfilling your wishes and desires."