Origins of Arabs/Arabic according to historians today

[Doctorabdi]

The first arabic speaking population group, were located in northern arabia. Yemen, is actually "arabised", they spoke related languages to arabic but not arabic itself.

The myth that arabs originated in yemen is false

In fact, it seems the yemeni poet Abu Nuwas despited it "If a Tamimi [arab] comes and boasts that he is better than you, then say to him ‘enough you lizard muncher! You dare to boast before the scions of kings, you fool…take up your stick and shoo your goats, you whose mother got the runs and shat herself! We ruled the world both east and west while your old chieftan was a droplet in his father’s loins.”

This also makes logical sense considering arabic's relation to hebrew which is located in the levant.

The modern arab identity does remind me a lot of han chinese formation, where related population groups were consolidated and formed a sort of ethnicity or linguistic-identity.

 

[Doctorabdi]

This is a good video to watch

 

[TheLand]

You are close but it’s probably a little further south in Najd or Hijaz

 

[Al Barqawi]

Makes a lot of sense tbh
The entire semitic lineage both linguistically, paternally (ie via haplogroups/dna/lineage/bloodline), geographically and culturally was based around a specific proximity around the Sinai/levant region

Theories of southern arabian origin of modern arab identity mostly comes from the widespread expanion of J1-p58 haplogroups across the arabian peninsula and it's supposed origination/spread from yemen due to the region being predominantly J1

 

[Doctorabdi]

You are close but it’s probably a little further south in Najd or Hijaz

This is according to dr ahmed al jallad, the map is pulled from his study. There is little proof of it being in najd or hijaz, the map is based on the earliest evidences of arabic speaking populations and their kingdoms like the nabateans

 

[The Macrobian]

Isnt this where the script originated rather than the language?

 

[Doctorabdi]

Isnt this where the script originated rather than the language?

No the language, the earliest archaeology we have the region is what you see on the map itself. That and the relation of arabic to other closely related semitic language, as well as mentioned empires. The earliest etymology of "arab", is also in said region. Everything pretty much points to that specific region.

 

[The alchemist]

Arabs as people and Arabic as defined linguistically are separate but linked processes.

Arab (people) as a prehistoric genesis is much more complicated, and it seems the definitions changed through continual historico-tribal reconfigurations and state rise and collapse with tribal merging and divergence. And there also seems to be a unison convergence of calling ancestral Arabians Arab when they were indeed related but distinct tribes that led to the medieval Arabs, and those older tribes could have existed from the Nabatean north, all the way to southern Arabia, in a culturally diffusive way. These people were in a civilizational complex stretching across a vast land beyond the Nabatean north. So in truth, the mythology that Arabs have their true roots in southern Arabia could be congruent with this complex picture. Although southern Arabia also had other Semitic groups.

Linguistics is much simpler (can sometimes be complex; e.g., in Sprachbund spaces (Jalal has written that such a thing might have happened in the Arabian past) to understand. The Arabic language itself is from those Nabatean guys, indeed.

 

[NidarNidar]

Just wanted to drop this in here.


I actually agree on Semitic languages being in the Horn for longer than the usually expected 3000-2800 years but for very different reasons than you.

E-V12 is most definetly a Nile valley lineage, connected to Southern Egypt (Ancient Egyptians); Northern Sudan (Ancient Kush kingdom); and the spread of Cushitic languages into the Horn of Africa. If it was indeed connected to the Semitic formation, we’d see some minor % across ALL Semitic speakers outside of Africa as well (which we don’t with a few minor exceptions due to historical movements in antiquity).

Undifferentiated E-V12* lineages (not E-V32 or E-M224, so therefore named "E-V12*") peak in frequency among Southern Egyptians (up to 74.5%). Which further illustrates that this border region (Southern Egypt/Nortern Sudan) believed to be the paternal origin of the Cushitic peoples, actually is the origin region.

Look up this study on E-V12:

https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC4524485/

Actually we see E-V12, and it’s subclade E-V32 predominately amongst Cushitic speakers and to a lesser degree in Southern Egypt and North and East Sudan. So exactly where we‘d expect E-V12 to be if it was a founding lineage of Cushitic speakers. Further studies on E-V12’s and E-V32’s position:

https://wayback.archive-it.org/all/...Tracing-Past-Human-Male-Movements-in-Northern

https://www.nature.com/articles/5201390

https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC1181964/

Your theory on E-V12 makes little to no sense.

Natufians (the ancestors of Semitic speakers) were mostly E-Z830 carriers; it‘s oldest appearance is in the Levant and over 12,000 years old. Generally E-Z830 is regarded as Levantine (other than E-M78 which is North African in origin).

Hence lineages like E-M123 are directly related to the spread of Semitic. Guess what - most Semitic speakers that carry E-M215 (E1b1b) carry a E-Z830 lineage, and mostly E-M123.

Here’s an scientific article on Natufians and their genetic composition, mentioning E-Z830:

https://figshare.com/articles/prese...an_genetic_Connections/28924583?file=54155954

Now we come to the most understudied E-Z830 lineage; E-V1515.

Some 1.5-2.5% across the Arabian & Levantine world, also carry E-V1515 (which is a E-Z830 descendant).

Its an earlier subclade of the Natufian E-Z830 lineage, and guess where it’s most common?

• Amongst Ethio-Semitic speakers and neighbouring ethnic groups in Eritrea & Northern Ethiopia.

Look up E-V1515 on Y-Tree:

https://www.yfull.com/arch-4.03/tree/E-V1515/

Some E-V1515 subclades (like E-V42) are not even present in Africa, and (as of right now) only detected in Arabian countries:

https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-V42/

E-V1515 only has one subclade (E-M293) outside of Semitic speaking regions. It formed in Southern Ethiopia around 4000 years ago and then migrated to Kenya, Burundi and Rwanda.

This is also mentioned in the study linked down here:

https://www.researchgate.net/figure...and-its-major-subhaplogroups-A_fig3_280314229

Ironically the East African Pastoralists were all under E-M293, so this lineage most likely assimilated into South Cushitic groups around ~ 4000 years ago. Therefore Semitic migrations in Eritrea & Northern Ethiopia might have appeared over 4000 years ago.

The E-M293 mutation It is still present in Nilo-Saharan groups like the Daatoga and Maasai.

The only thing I disagree with in the study is that the E-V1515 lineage entered Africa 12kya - which I highly doubt. Their conclusion is based upon the spread of E-V1515 in the modern age, however it should have been important to deduct genetic analysis across the Arabian peninsular to understand the migration pattern from E-Z830 in the Levant to E-V1515 in Northeastafrica (Eritrea & Northern Ethiopia).

If you see where it’s spread outside of Africa and adding that information to the origin of E-Z830 in the Levant, it becomes clear that it migrated trough Arabia into Abyssinia. The migration map by HRAS assumes the same.

Look up the migration map on HRAS:

https://hras.yseq.net/?dna_type=y&map_type=classic

Also J1 is often associated with Semitic migrations, however J1 was not important to the formation of Semitic peoples; and rather assimilated to already existing Semitic groups. It’s earliest appearance in the Levant is roughly 5700 years ago, so right after Proto-Semitic evolved.

This gives some place for the first South Semites (E-V1515 carriers) entering Eritrea/Northern Ethiopia while J1 simultaneously entered the Levant & Arabia (and later on North Africa & East Africa). This is why the Sabean migrations (J1 and E-M84 carriers) came in later than the first Semites.

Here’s a study on J1 mentioning it’s appearance in the Levant & Arabia ~5700 years:

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-021-85883-2

Lastly there’s the linguistic argument, a 2012 study focused on positioning Tigre in the broader Ethio-Semitic language branch; also came to the conclusion of all Ethio-Semitic languages only sharing a South Semitic branch origin, and not necessarily a common „Proto - Ethio-Semitic language“. This would even more underline that there were separate migrations.

Here’s the study:

„M. Bulakh, L. Kogan. “The Genealogical Position of Tigre and the Problem of North Ethio-Semitic Unity“ // ZDMG 160 (Heft 2), 2010, 273-302"

So my theory is, that there were multiple migrations from South Arabia into the Horn being genetically and linguistically impactful with the last major migration (Sabeans) being more culturally impactful (adaption of Sabean agriculture, architecture, statehood and writing system).

Those who settled in the Highlands during the D‘mt/Sabean period were carrying J1 and E-M34>E-M84; however the first Semitic migrations into the Highlands were under E-V1515 and predate the Sabean migrants the by (x) amount of years.

source

 

[Garaad Awal]

Are you suggesting that Semitic-speaking populations were present in Arabia as early as 3000 BCE and entered the Horn of Africa prior to the main wave of Cushitic-speaking cattle pastoralists between 2000 and 2500 BCE yet left no discernible autosomal, linguistic, material, or cultural impact? Furthermore, are we to believe that a distinct founder effect rapidly developed among South Cushitic groups under these circumstances? This scenario appears impossible for a variety of reasons, don’t let the overrepresentation of Arabian samples on genetic and archaeological platforms paint you a false picture of migration patterns. A more reasonable hypothesis might be that both Middle Eastern and Cushitic populations diverged carrying E-Y5861 split in or near Egypt, rather than positing an ancient Semitic backmigration to the Horn predating the Cushitic expansion or simultaneously with the great Cushitic migrations.

 

[Bursalah]

Somalis hugged the Red Sea and the Ethiopians hugged the other side via the Arabian gulf, skipped across Red Sea around ~3000bc?

 

[Doctorabdi]

Somalis hugged the Red Sea and the Ethiopians hugged the other side via the Arabian gulf, skipped across Red Sea around ~3000bc?

Eastern cushites, yes. Habeshas are a mixture of those migrating cushites, who mixed with migrating arabians from southern yemen/arabia. Hence why you can model them as 75% Somali 25% Arabian-ish.

 

[Doctorabdi]

Just wanted to drop this in here.


I actually agree on Semitic languages being in the Horn for longer than the usually expected 3000-2800 years but for very different reasons than you.

E-V12 is most definetly a Nile valley lineage, connected to Southern Egypt (Ancient Egyptians); Northern Sudan (Ancient Kush kingdom); and the spread of Cushitic languages into the Horn of Africa. If it was indeed connected to the Semitic formation, we’d see some minor % across ALL Semitic speakers outside of Africa as well (which we don’t with a few minor exceptions due to historical movements in antiquity).

Undifferentiated E-V12* lineages (not E-V32 or E-M224, so therefore named "E-V12*") peak in frequency among Southern Egyptians (up to 74.5%). Which further illustrates that this border region (Southern Egypt/Nortern Sudan) believed to be the paternal origin of the Cushitic peoples, actually is the origin region.

Look up this study on E-V12:

https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC4524485/

Actually we see E-V12, and it’s subclade E-V32 predominately amongst Cushitic speakers and to a lesser degree in Southern Egypt and North and East Sudan. So exactly where we‘d expect E-V12 to be if it was a founding lineage of Cushitic speakers. Further studies on E-V12’s and E-V32’s position:

https://wayback.archive-it.org/all/...Tracing-Past-Human-Male-Movements-in-Northern

https://www.nature.com/articles/5201390

https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC1181964/

Your theory on E-V12 makes little to no sense.

Natufians (the ancestors of Semitic speakers) were mostly E-Z830 carriers; it‘s oldest appearance is in the Levant and over 12,000 years old. Generally E-Z830 is regarded as Levantine (other than E-M78 which is North African in origin).

Hence lineages like E-M123 are directly related to the spread of Semitic. Guess what - most Semitic speakers that carry E-M215 (E1b1b) carry a E-Z830 lineage, and mostly E-M123.

Here’s an scientific article on Natufians and their genetic composition, mentioning E-Z830:

https://figshare.com/articles/prese...an_genetic_Connections/28924583?file=54155954

Now we come to the most understudied E-Z830 lineage; E-V1515.

Some 1.5-2.5% across the Arabian & Levantine world, also carry E-V1515 (which is a E-Z830 descendant).

Its an earlier subclade of the Natufian E-Z830 lineage, and guess where it’s most common?

• Amongst Ethio-Semitic speakers and neighbouring ethnic groups in Eritrea & Northern Ethiopia.

Look up E-V1515 on Y-Tree:

https://www.yfull.com/arch-4.03/tree/E-V1515/

Some E-V1515 subclades (like E-V42) are not even present in Africa, and (as of right now) only detected in Arabian countries:

https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-V42/

E-V1515 only has one subclade (E-M293) outside of Semitic speaking regions. It formed in Southern Ethiopia around 4000 years ago and then migrated to Kenya, Burundi and Rwanda.

This is also mentioned in the study linked down here:

https://www.researchgate.net/figure...and-its-major-subhaplogroups-A_fig3_280314229

Ironically the East African Pastoralists were all under E-M293, so this lineage most likely assimilated into South Cushitic groups around ~ 4000 years ago. Therefore Semitic migrations in Eritrea & Northern Ethiopia might have appeared over 4000 years ago.

The E-M293 mutation It is still present in Nilo-Saharan groups like the Daatoga and Maasai.

The only thing I disagree with in the study is that the E-V1515 lineage entered Africa 12kya - which I highly doubt. Their conclusion is based upon the spread of E-V1515 in the modern age, however it should have been important to deduct genetic analysis across the Arabian peninsular to understand the migration pattern from E-Z830 in the Levant to E-V1515 in Northeastafrica (Eritrea & Northern Ethiopia).

If you see where it’s spread outside of Africa and adding that information to the origin of E-Z830 in the Levant, it becomes clear that it migrated trough Arabia into Abyssinia. The migration map by HRAS assumes the same.

Look up the migration map on HRAS:

https://hras.yseq.net/?dna_type=y&map_type=classic

Also J1 is often associated with Semitic migrations, however J1 was not important to the formation of Semitic peoples; and rather assimilated to already existing Semitic groups. It’s earliest appearance in the Levant is roughly 5700 years ago, so right after Proto-Semitic evolved.

This gives some place for the first South Semites (E-V1515 carriers) entering Eritrea/Northern Ethiopia while J1 simultaneously entered the Levant & Arabia (and later on North Africa & East Africa). This is why the Sabean migrations (J1 and E-M84 carriers) came in later than the first Semites.

Here’s a study on J1 mentioning it’s appearance in the Levant & Arabia ~5700 years:

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-021-85883-2

Lastly there’s the linguistic argument, a 2012 study focused on positioning Tigre in the broader Ethio-Semitic language branch; also came to the conclusion of all Ethio-Semitic languages only sharing a South Semitic branch origin, and not necessarily a common „Proto - Ethio-Semitic language“. This would even more underline that there were separate migrations.

Here’s the study:

„M. Bulakh, L. Kogan. “The Genealogical Position of Tigre and the Problem of North Ethio-Semitic Unity“ // ZDMG 160 (Heft 2), 2010, 273-302"

So my theory is, that there were multiple migrations from South Arabia into the Horn being genetically and linguistically impactful with the last major migration (Sabeans) being more culturally impactful (adaption of Sabean agriculture, architecture, statehood and writing system).

Those who settled in the Highlands during the D‘mt/Sabean period were carrying J1 and E-M34>E-M84; however the first Semitic migrations into the Highlands were under E-V1515 and predate the Sabean migrants the by (x) amount of years.

source

@Shimbiris @The alchemist @Xareen
Apologies for the tags lads, what do you think about such a response?

 

[NidarNidar]

Are you suggesting that Semitic-speaking populations were present in Arabia as early as 3000 BCE and entered the Horn of Africa prior to the main wave of Cushitic-speaking cattle pastoralists between 2000 and 2500 BCE yet left no discernible autosomal, linguistic, material, or cultural impact? Furthermore, are we to believe that a distinct founder effect rapidly developed among South Cushitic groups under these circumstances? This scenario appears impossible for a variety of reasons, don’t let the overrepresentation of Arabian samples on genetic and archaeological platforms paint you a false picture of migration patterns. A more reasonable hypothesis might be that both Middle Eastern and Cushitic populations diverged carrying E-Y5861 split in or near Egypt, rather than positing an ancient Semitic backmigration to the Horn predating the Cushitic expansion or simultaneously with the great Cushitic migrations.

No I just came across it while at work on the subreddit, and copied and pasted here, these are not my views.

 

[Garaad Awal]

An interesting tangent to this thread:

Al-Jallad. 2025. Ancient Allah: An Epigraphic Reconstruction

The identity of the pre-Islamic Arabian deity, Allāh, has been the subject of much scholarly debate. Opinions vary from regarding him as the primary creator deity of the pre-Islamic Arabs to seeing him as a minor, peripheral superbeing with no

www.academia.edu