Just to be clear my point is not spefically about haplogroup t. But the assumption that migration from the Levant into Africa during the Neolithic as some catch all explanation for how haplogroups are distribution.
GENETICS Nilotes found to carry Haplogroup T (T-M70) shared with Fulani, Egyptians & South Cushites
- Thread starter haile_selassie
- Start date
Garaad Awal
Former African
J wasn’t present in the Levant during the Neolithic. Actually try to learn and read before arguing with people
Damn thats crazy.
Are you sure? It seems strange that this haplogroup whos origin is in the caucuses or iran somehow didnt reach the Levant till the bronze age.
Garaad Awal
Former African
So you've got nothing? Why am I not surprise ive peeped the coonery you've engaged in on the form before
Arabsiyawi
HA Activist.
Key word used : "present".
The very paper your screenshot and posted here aknowledges the complete absence of J in the Levant during the Neolithic.
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The argument made is about the hypothetical diversification of J-P58 in Arabia, Mesopotamia and the Levant. This is a no brainer. P58 and sister branches are some of the most successful lineages among Proto-Semitic speakers, but there's no doubt about it being intrusive in the (post-)Neolithic Levantine cultures we often associate with Afroasiatic.
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Btw, this also mirrors the introduction of YDNA T among Levantines, which supposedly happened earlier. The 22 remains from Peqi'in were a homogenous population, modeled as roughly being 57% Natufian-like, 26% Anatolian N and 17% Iran Ch. 9 males out of 10 were hg T.
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It's easy to roughly understand the role that J-P58 and others took into shaping early Semitic-speaking communities and how it got dispersed in the Middle East and beyond.
Haplogroup T is from the Levant without any doubt . It is very obvious. The first Eurasian haplogroup ever found in PPNB is T-M70 in Jordan, and would be ancestral to Afro-Asiatic populations who live near North Africa, East Africa. Why wouldn’t T spread their DNA to deeper areas of Africa? As a semi-Succesful lineage for the era it only makes sense.
At a close time that we see T-PF7455 in Africa, we also find clades of T like T-L131 and T-Y63197 in Anatolia, Varna Bulgaria associated with early European farmers. These people were pretty much 70-80% Anatolian Neolithic ancestry and the rest being local WHG . This tells us that T had to originate somewhere central in the Middle East, such as Mesopotamia or near Sumer and branches out from there to Arabia, Iran, Africa, Anatolia and Europe with different clades. Expanding with PPNB ancestry . Also consider the 7000BP skhirat samples we have from Morocco
are heavily PPNB Levantine ancestry , mixed with local Iberomaursian/North African.T-PF7455 is one of the oldest T clades and absolutely relevant in the Green Sahara era eventually being classified as Saharan Pastoralists and they could have originated in Africa however the nature and different clades of T in Eurasia tells us it’s from the Middle East.
The only possibility that T could be African in origin is either if T is not descended from haplogorup K-M9, or if we find an ancient Post K haplogroup “LT”- ancestral sample in Africa like Deep Egypt or Sudan.
Haplogroup T is from the Levant without any doubt . It is very obvious. The first Eurasian haplogroup ever found in PPNB is T-M70 in Jordan, and would be ancestral to Afro-Asiatic populations who live near North Africa, East Africa. Why wouldn’t T spread their DNA to deeper areas of Africa? As a semi-Succesful lineage for the era it only makes sense.
At a close time that we see T-PF7455 in Africa, we also find clades of T like T-L131 and T-Y63197 in Anatolia, Varna Bulgaria associated with early European farmers. These people were pretty much 70-80% Anatolian Neolithic ancestry and the rest being local WHG . This tells us that T had to originate somewhere central in the Middle East, such as Mesopotamia or near Sumer and branches out from there to Arabia, Iran, Africa, Anatolia and Europe with different clades. Expanding with PPNB ancestry . Also consider the 7000BP skhirat samples we have from Morocco
are heavily PPNB Levantine ancestry , mixed with local Iberomaursian/North African.T-PF7455 is one of the oldest T clades and absolutely relevant in the Green Sahara era eventually being classified as Saharan Pastoralists however the nature of different clades of T in Eurasia and it’s overall ancestral origins tells us it’s from the Middle East.
The only possibility that T could be African in origin is either if T is not descended from haplogroup K-M9, or if we find an ancient Post K haplogroup “LT”- ancestral sample in Africa like Deep Egypt or Sudan.
Garaad Awal
Former African
Your screenshot doesn’t contradict the fact that J1 wasn’t present in the Levant during the Neolithic. You are already confirmed to me that you were an idiot when you anttenpted to make an argument in this thread for the possibility of T-M70 being of African origin.
I think your misunderstanding me. I'm not saying the whole t haplogroup is from Africa. (Although its a possibility) my point was more that this specific t haplogroup found in this Nilotic dude doesnt seem like a recent arrival. It might be descended from a higher sub clade that entered Africa long before this specific nilotic sub clade.Haplogroup T is from the Levant without any doubt . It is very obvious. The first Eurasian haplogroup ever found in PPNB is T-M70 in Jordan, and would be ancestral to Afro-Asiatic populations who live near North Africa, East Africa. Why wouldn’t T spread their DNA to deeper areas of Africa? As a semi-Succesful lineage for the era it only makes sense.
At a close time that we see T-PF7455 in Africa, we also find clades of T like T-L131 and T-Y63197 in Anatolia, Varna Bulgaria associated with early European farmers. These people were pretty much 70-80% Anatolian Neolithic ancestry and the rest being local WHG . This tells us that T had to originate somewhere central in the Middle East, such as Mesopotamia or near Sumer and branches out from there to Arabia, Iran, Africa, Anatolia and Europe with different clades. Expanding with PPNB ancestry . Also consider the 7000BP skhirat samples we have from Morocco
T-PF7455 is one of the oldest T clades and absolutely relevant in the Green Sahara era eventually being classified as Saharan Pastoralists and they could have originated in Africa however the nature and different clades of T in Eurasia tells us it’s from the Middle East.
The only possibility that T could be African in origin is either if T is not descended from haplogorup K-M9, or if we find an ancient Post K haplogroup “LT”- ancestral sample in Africa like Deep Egypt or Sudan.
Well that’s true T-PF7455 is a older branch of T and I believe I understand you now, if you are arguing that this specific branch of T originated in Africa then yes, I would agree with you and in fact I share this stance that the Saharan pastoralist lineage T-PF7455 evolved in Africa and is an African haplogroup in the same manner than R1b-V88 seen in Sahelians and King Tut is technically considered a Chadic/African branch but has Eurasian origins, I would go as far to say T-PF7455/T-Y6671 has even more ancestral roots to African than R1b-V88 because T-PF7455 indeed evolved/localized in Africa that’s why we don’t see branches of it in Eurasia that aren’t from the North Africa through Spain Europe/Medditeranean migration. Even this is how Thomas Jefferson has it, his branch went through North Africa to UK his forefathers were North Africans / Afro-Asiatic people who assimilated with Europeans. Local branches of Haplogroups can evolve in different areas completely separated from the ancestral clade and then founder effect and further migrations as we have the Uganda Nilotic example and then we can make a assumption from the outside that it may appear as an African origin haplogroup but it is not, it is just a African origin haploTYPE / branch with Asiatic origins . So depends on how you look at it.
It’s true man J entered the Levant and North Africa from Caucasus/Zagros thousands of years after, during the Chalcolithic while the original PPNB inhabitants E-M123 and T-L208 were already present .
This is why early T samples like i1707 Ain Ghazal completely lack Iranian-Caucasian ancestry . The skhirat samples of Morocco as well, are pure PPNB , presenting T early migrations to Africa before the J northern influence in Levant.
