Muslims, I need your input

[AussieHustler]

My argument is not that muhammad was bad on women's rights compared to us (although he was). Its that people should understand his context as a 7th century merchant and not a divinely sent prophet for all time.

axmed

Mate, if you read again my posts, we are playing the same tune. Tan kale, it is futile to reason with folks who were brainwashed to belief that "Mohamed was a divinely sent prophet for all times". Let them be.

 

[axmedxajiisback]

Lets say that you were born dead.
You were born into death.
A dead baby, yes that is what you were at birth.

Then the afterlife is not so bad. I can enjoy the pleasures of this afterlife knowing there is no other afterlife.

 

[Madara x]

Then the afterlife is not so bad. I can enjoy the pleasures of this afterlife knowing there is no other afterlife.

Hedonism is indeed a way of life that leads to misery . . . endless emptiness.

 

[axmedxajiisback]

axmed

Mate, if you read again my posts, we are playing the same tune. Tan kale, it is futile to reason with folks who were brainwashed to belief that "Mohamed was a divinely sent prophet for all times". Let them be.

Well, leaving them be is worse than addressing them and largely failing.

 

[axmedxajiisback]

Hedonism is indeed a way of life that leads to misery . . . endless emptiness.

You destroyed yourself with your hypothetical. If this is the afterlife, I love it. Might as well be hedonistic, whatever the f*ck that means.

 

[SuldaanGuled]

Suldan

Sxb, when it comes to child brides and slave owning whom both were practiced by Mohamed, the Muslim argument reverts back to time and place, that his actions corresponded the cultural norms of that era and place. If the Koran and the teachings of Mohamed are timeless and are suitable for any era and Allah is an omniscience that could see that Muslims would one day find both acts to be immoral and disgusting, then it would have been banned immediately and Mohamed would have issued a warning. But, he didn't know the future Muslims would find such acts abhorrent and he never had a crystal ball to see their evolving cultural norms. After all, Muslims consider Mohamed's actions as Sunnah and the only ones left following the above tenants are terrorists like ISIS, ALQAEDA, BOKO HARAM and ALSHABAB. Other Muslims were emancipated from practicing such vile acts. I consider Mohamed as a social revolutionary who has suggested many noble improvements to lift human morals and spirit during his era, but was there Allah who is omniscient and commanded him? No. All leaders had fallacies too. His was marrying a child, trading and owning in slaves, encouraging the rape of slaves and etc. It could only be understood from that perspective.

View attachment 20501

A lo

Where do women's rights come from? Rational people who value the dignity of other humans and wouldn't arbitrarily make their testimony half a mans. Muhammad said women are deficient. That's completely arbitrary and objectively wrong. Furthermore, societies that give women rights are objectively better off.

You mean the same people that rationalised colonialism and subjugation of other people that they deemed to be less civilised than them? what's stopping them from rationalising their historical actions in the near future ? People can rationalise anything that they are passionate about ? Whose rationality should we take as the standard ? the current one whereby they refer to it as the "universal declaration of human rights". It becomes universal because the west say so??

You mean the same rationale that promotes and glorifies one night stands ?

You can't even tell us where the supposed rights comes from and expect us to simply agree with you ? We're rational so long as we espouse western though and norms ?? The simple fact that you don't even realise this clearly shows how blinded you're

 

[SuldaanGuled]

Suldan

Sxb, when it comes to child brides and slave owning whom both were practiced by Mohamed, the Muslim argument reverts back to time and place, that his actions corresponded the cultural norms of that era and place. If the Koran and the teachings of Mohamed are timeless and are suitable for any era and Allah is an omniscience that could see that Muslims would one day find both acts to be immoral and disgusting, then it would have been banned immediately and Mohamed would have issued a warning. But, he didn't know the future Muslims would find such acts abhorrent and he never had a crystal ball to see their evolving cultural norms. After all, Muslims consider Mohamed's actions as Sunnah and the only ones left following the above tenants are terrorists like ISIS, ALQAEDA, BOKO HARAM and ALSHABAB. Other Muslims were emancipated from practicing such vile acts. I consider Mohamed as a social revolutionary who has suggested many noble improvements to lift human morals and spirit during his era, but was there Allah who is omniscient and commanded him? No. All leaders had fallacies too. His was marrying a child, trading and owning in slaves, encouraging the rape of slaves and etc. It could only be understood from that perspective.

View attachment 20501

Child brides is a common occurrence including the west. Tell me what reasons do cadaan people give when it comes to slavery, colonialism etc ??

So are you telling us because some muslims have a problem with following islam today then the message of islam isn't suitable for this era ?? they find it immoral and disgusting because the cadaan find it immoral & disgusting nothing more it.

Very funny indeed that the only groups of muslims who exist today are
1) Those that find the teachings of islam to immoral and disgusting or
2) ISIS, ALQAEDA BOKO HARAM

Bal ila arka ninkan wuxu sheegayo ??

If a muslims finds it shameful that Our prophet (peace be upon him) married Aisha( may Allah be pleased with her ) at a young age then it's only due to them developing an inferiority complex towards the west. It's a shame because it's against western morality.

 

[SuldaanGuled]

Morality is NOT subjective. It can be measured and it has been measured over the decades. Yes, women's rights is a western concept but it's a fruitful concept. The countries that decided to grant women's rights and prohibit child marriage have benefited from that decision. Look at the countries on that map you posted and tell me what they have in common that they don't share with Muslim countries.

I use logic and reason. You on the other hand conform to 7th century barbarism and refuse to change no matter what.

Measured how ? the issue isn't about the concept but what constitutes a right and how are they determined, once you understand this then you'll know that they're defined according to how the west believe that it should be. They have promoted themselves to be the moral authority on earth and they alone have the right to decide how the rest of the world should live their lives. To put it short they consider themselves to be "gods" and we should worship them.

Say, "O disbelievers,
I do not worship what you worship.
Nor are you worshippers of what I worship.
Nor will I be a worshipper of what you worship.
Nor will you be worshippers of what I worship.
For you is your religion, and for me is my religion.


There's nothing more glorifying and honourable than being a slave of Allah on this earth. We're incapable of logic and reason miya ?? @Inquisitive_ bal ila dhageyso



The "europhile" ideology is strong with this one

 

[Naissur]

Your reasoning doesn't go far beyond because the West does it/used to do it. Well, the West isn't claiming to have received divine revelation that's supposed to be valid until the end of mankind. Also, as someone who subscribes to moral absolutism, your attempts trying to use moral relativism as a defence in this case are both futile and laughable. This 'beerka jecliyaa, xaaydha jecliyaa' approach is truly unbecoming and we can see through it, sxb. I still can't believe I'm trying to reason with someone who believes that men should be able to marry nine year olds.

 

[Naissur]

View attachment 20514

@Inquisitive_ is a fraud! We had already proven it in this forum. He is also compulsive liar - telling lies that are so outlandish that they look out of place even for the internet, which is an astonishing feat! That's why I'm not surprised he would advocate for what's by definition paedophilia.

 

[SuldaanGuled]

Your reasoning doesn't go far beyond because the West does it/used to do it. Well, the West isn't claiming to have received divine revelation that's supposed to be valid until the end of mankind. Also, as someone who subscribes to moral absolutism, your attempts trying to use moral relativism as a defence in this case are both futile and laughable. This 'beerka jecliyaa, xaaydha jecliyaa' approach is truly unbecoming and we can see through it, sxb. I still can't believe I'm trying to reason with someone who believes that men should be able to marry nine year olds.

The west believes in the philosophy that man is the best judge to decide what suits him, they see themselves as the epitome of this philosophy. As a result they believe that everyone should follow them as they're the perfect role model. You can see this through the way the world is run today from UN to IMF etc it's all based on their world view. In other words they are dictating to the rest of the world how they should be imitating them.

As i said before in this thread i base my morality on the quran and sunnah what do you base yours on if not your own intellect ? Since we know that human beings differ in their intellect and because of it issues arise that's why we as mulims refer our disagreements on the quran to determine who is right or wrong. In your case you only have your intellect to fall back on now the problem is what do you do when another person doesn't see things the same way you do ? why should he then accept your views and opinions ? after all truth is relative according to you

Why the outrage ? let people live according to how they see fit since this is the position you've taken when you chose to become an atheist.What's true for you isn't necessarily true for another.

The only reason that i can think off why you've a problem is because you also believe in objective morality otherwise you would not be having an issue with it at all. You've to choose as you can't believe in objective and relative morality at the same time. If you beleive in objective morality where do you get it from ie what is it based on ? and if it's the latter then stop projecting and let people live their lives according to how they see fit.

 

[axmedxajiisback]

Measured how ? the issue isn't about the concept but what constitutes a right and how are they determined, once you understand this then you'll know that they're defined according to how the west believe that it should be. They have promoted themselves to be the moral authority on earth and they alone have the right to decide how the rest of the world should live their lives. To put it short they consider themselves to be "gods" and we should worship them.

Say, "O disbelievers,
I do not worship what you worship.
Nor are you worshippers of what I worship.
Nor will I be a worshipper of what you worship.
Nor will you be worshippers of what I worship.
For you is your religion, and for me is my religion.


There's nothing more glorifying and honourable than being a slave of Allah on this earth. We're incapable of logic and reason miya ?? @Inquisitive_ bal ila dhageyso



The "europhile" ideology is strong with this one

My point is what they deem as moral and make laws around are superior on paper to what Allah says. By measured, I mean the state of society in the west and in the Muslim world. The influence of sharia and Islamic culture is reflected in state of Muslim countries. And if you want to claim that everything is just fine in Bangladesh, then you're an idiot.

Stop talking about how the west comes up with their own morality. My argument is that's a good thing and it works for them in the long run. Their economies are booming and all of the scientific developments were made possible by sending six year old girls to school and not in a room with a bearded 50-year old creep.

 

[axmedxajiisback]

The west believes in the philosophy that man is the best judge to decide what suits him, they see themselves as the epitome of this philosophy. As a result they believe that everyone should follow them as they're the perfect role model. You can see this through the way the world is run today from UN to IMF etc it's all based on their world view. In other words they are dictating to the rest of the world how they should be imitating them.

As i said before in this thread i base my morality on the quran and sunnah what do you base yours on if not your own intellect ? Since we know that human beings differ in their intellect and because of it issues arise that's why we as mulims refer our disagreements on the quran to determine who is right or wrong. In your case you only have your intellect to fall back on now the problem is what do you do when another person doesn't see things the same way you do ? why should he then accept your views and opinions ? after all truth is relative according to you

Why the outrage ? let people live according to how they see fit since this is the position you've taken when you chose to become an atheist.What's true for you isn't necessarily true for another.

The only reason that i can think off why you've a problem is because you also believe in objective morality otherwise you would not be having an issue with it at all. You've to choose as you can't believe in objective and relative morality at the same time. If you beleive in objective morality where do you get it from ie what is it based on ? and if it's the latter then stop projecting and let people live their lives according to how they see fit.

Man IS the best judge. Sharia has been tried and has a track record of abject failure throughout history. Think of this: Muslims marry off children at a young age, preventing them from going to school and this has grave consequences for the country in the long run. In other words, follow what god and Muhammad wants, and f*ck yourself over.

 

[SuldaanGuled]

My point is what they deem as moral and make laws around are superior on paper to what Allah says. By measured, I mean the state of society in the west and in the Muslim world. The influence of sharia and Islamic culture is reflected in state of Muslim countries. And if you want to claim that everything is just fine in Bangladesh, then you're an idiot.

Stop talking about how the west comes up with their own morality. My argument is that's a good thing and it works for them in the long run. Their economies are booming and all of the scientific developments were made possible by sending six year old girls to school and not in a room with a bearded 50-year old creep.

what sort of evidence have you used to come to that conclusion other than your own reasoning ? As a muslim i believe that Allah's laws are far superior than any human law. Could you briefly tell us what's "superior" about legalising homosexuality, one night stands ?? so you wouldn't have a problem if one of your female relatives sleeps around with as many men as she wants ? after all she would be exercising her sexual freedoms. In your eyes is this superior than what Allah has prescribed for mankind ?

all of the scientific developments were made possible by sending six year old girls to school

Would you care to provide evidence that supports that claim of yours ???

Man IS the best judge. Sharia has been tried and has a track record of abject failure throughout history. Think of this: Muslims marry off children at a young age, preventing them from going to school and this has grave consequences for the country in the long run. In other words, follow what god and Muhammad wants, and f*ck yourself over.

Which man are you referring to ? i hope you don't mean ninka cadaanka what about their track record ? or did the europhile amnesia kick in

If you're mentally enslaved take it somewhere else where you kind socialise. This is my last response to you

 

[axmedxajiisback]

what sort of evidence have you used to come to that conclusion other than your own reasoning ? As a muslim i believe that Allah's laws are far superior than any human law. Could you briefly tell us what's "superior" about legalising homosexuality, one night stands ?? so you wouldn't have a problem if one of your female relatives sleeps around with as many men as she wants ? after all she would be exercising her sexual freedoms. In your eyes is this superior than what Allah has prescribed for mankind ?

Let me first address this tirade about your allowing your mother to sleep around or homosexuality. Your mother DID screw around and birth you, regardless of what some bearded sheikh might've muttered at some ceremony. Your dad was looking for things to screw and your mother was among the things he found to screw. Your ancestors did that en masse and that's how your clan came about. If your mom were to get married again today, she would be screwed and you'd be ok with it because some sheikh would say it's ok. The west, understands humans' need to screw around and sets some ground rules (i.e. don't force them against their will, don't do to people who can't consent, don't spread disease etc.). The west doesn't play this childish game about having a ceremony or saying the right things before sticking your cock in places. Ok?

Second, homosexuality is believed to be caused both by human behavior and nature/biological factors. There are millions of gays and i'd be shocked if regular dudes suddenly wanted to take it in the ass. The west doesnt endorse anal sex between men. It recognizes the cause of homosexuality and sets general ground rules (i.e. don't rape, spread disease etc.)

 

[axmedxajiisback]

what sort of evidence have you used to come to that conclusion other than your own reasoning ? As a muslim i believe that Allah's laws are far superior than any human law. Could you briefly tell us what's "superior" about legalising homosexuality, one night stands ?? so you wouldn't have a problem if one of your female relatives sleeps around with as many men as she wants ? after all she would be exercising her sexual freedoms. In your eyes is this superior than what Allah has prescribed for mankind ?

There is evidence out in the open that societies that live by Allah's laws are worse off. They are plunged in civil war, political instability, poverty and many other things. These things are a result of their cultures which are greatly influenced by sharia law. For example, why are you in the west today?
There are many answers but they all have a common thread that keeps them connected.

Societies that value freedom of expression benefit from it. If people are allowed to put forth bad ideas and good ideas, the good ideas will survive the test of time while the bad ones will be ridiculed and flushed out. This is not the case in a society that preapproves what's ok and what isn't. This is a basis for the west's advancements in science and tech (and please don't give me shit about golden age of Islam shit). For example, early scientific theories were at odds with the church's creation story but had they called them "blasphemous" and imprisoned them, you wouldn't be in the west today.

Societies that treat women as equal to men benefit from it. Women are 50% of the population. If instead of marrying them off at six, they learn what men learn at universities, they can use their knowledge to benefit that country. Again, this should be obvious. By the way, we recognize that women are biologically different than men. Apparently that's the only thing Muhammad knew when he made sharia law.

Societies that value the rule of law and habeas corpus benefit from it. People have confidence in a legal system and that country will not be plunged into civil war (remind you of some countries?)

 

[axmedxajiisback]

Why the outrage ? let people live according to how they see fit since this is the position you've taken when you chose to become an atheist.What's true for you isn't necessarily true for another.

Islam doesnt let people live as they see fit. You can't come on this forum to defend Islam and ask for tolerance.

 

[GodKnowsBest]

I don't know the reason but think about a 50-something bearded, robed man lusting after a six year old child playing with dolls. And then think about 1.5b people that think that's ok. That's the thing the bothers me the most.

I was banned on this forum for calling he who should not be named a pedophile. Be careful where you tread. Freedom of Speech is limited.

 

[GodKnowsBest]

There's no doubt that Ayesha was a child pride but I don't think it's appropriate to judge Muhammed marriage to Ayesha by modern moral standards. Hell, even today in developing countries, child marriages is common place. So, it's no shock that in Medieval Arabia child marriages was common too. The only issue is Muhammed was no modern man. He was a Prophet and an exemplar whose conduct is a shining guide for all times. Given this, his marriage to prepuscent Ayesha was morally reprehensible.

But I don't believe Muhammed was a prophet of god, so I will not judge him.

Are you Muslim? And you don't accept him as a prophet?
Interesting.

 

[ItzDoctorZ]

They say "but things were different at the time of the prophet" "We can't judge them using today's moral values"

If we are so different (in the 21st century) compared to the time of the prophet, why do we follow him? Why do we follow rules from a time that is completely different to ours. While the rest of the world has moved on and advanced, Muslim countries are still as backwards as ever.

If Allah was real, he would've sent us (people in the 20th/21th century) a prophet too. One that would give us a way of life pertaining to our moral beliefs.

How can a guy who died in the 7th century, be a prophet for us, 1400 years later wtf.