Most Arabs in Zeila were prisoners

[Idilinaa]

"I'm not denying it was Somali" Learn to read instead of jumping to conclusions

I am not saying you said it , i was agreeing with you. I was referring the OP's flawed reasoning.

Not really, in Saylac and Berbera sometimes there were 10 times more temporary dwellings than stone building, and the reason for this is attributed to nomads. Berbera was the most extreme case cause from its second destruction all the way to the 19th century it could barely be considered a settlement, it was a seasonal fair.

Harar kept Somali and oromo nomads out for a while so waaaay less huts and less significant hut to stone dwellings ratio
Luuq wasnt even temporary dwellings but straight up mud huts

Xamar was same as Harar, in the revoil drawing you can even see some huts in the middle of the city, less so in Barawe I believe

When Richard Burton visited Zeyla, he noted that pastoralists came in during the day to trade in the markets and left before nightfall, when the gates were shut. So they weren’t the ‘floating population’ he referred to that term more accurately described seasonal residents who stayed longer but weren’t permanent.

The same was said about Harar Bedouins (pastoralists) came and went, likely also referencing seasonal residents rather than full-time settlers.

As for Luuq, the farming areas around it were made up of mundhuls, but within the walled town itself, the layout resembled that of coastal towns: mainly carishes maybe a few whitewashed stone houses .

I don’t think carishes automatically indicate nomadic influence. It’s more about practicality easily available materials, the cost and time of building stone structures, and the rapid repopulation of towns during economic revival. People built what was accessible and efficient first, especially when towns were experiencing renewed traffic and growth.

 

[Barkhadle1520]

As for Luuq, the farming areas around it were made up of mundhuls, but within the walled town itself, the layout resembled that of coastal towns: mainly carishes maybe a few whitewashed stone houses

Luuq had no stone buildings stop this 'maybe' non sense, there are pictures of it and it was like bur hakaba only mud huts

When Richard Burton visited Zeyla, he noted that pastoralists came in during the day to trade in the markets and left before nightfall, when the gates were shut. So they weren’t the ‘floating population’ he referred to that term more accurately described seasonal residents who stayed longer but weren’t permanent.

I dont think you want to quote richard burton on this, read the full book and what he says on the somali nomads, especially at saylac

I don’t think carishes automatically indicate nomadic influence

No one said Carish = nomad, its the opposite carish is a makeshift home most of the time it was a permanent dwelling compared to the temporary buul/aqal of nomads

 

[Saleh]

The ottoman navy was nothing compared to the portuguese one, this is not coming from me but ottoman historians themselves, i think youre over-estimating their capabilities, and it would only make sense that their biggest vessels would be in the mediterranean defending their seas rather than the swahili coast

the mamluks had a fleet equal to that of the portugese (which the ottomans inherited) capable of expelling the portugese from india a decade prior to the burning of zeila, ask yourself why they could protect gujarat but the ottomans with the same arsenal could not. it took them almost 50 years to banish the portugese from the redsea

 

[Saleh]

I am not saying you said it , i was agreeing with you. I was referring the OP's flawed reasoning.


When Richard Burton visited Zeyla, he noted that pastoralists came in during the day to trade in the markets and left before nightfall, when the gates were shut. So they weren’t the ‘floating population’ he referred to that term more accurately described seasonal residents who stayed longer but weren’t permanent.

The same was said about Harar Bedouins (pastoralists) came and went, likely also referencing seasonal residents rather than full-time settlers.

As for Luuq, the farming areas around it were made up of mundhuls, but within the walled town itself, the layout resembled that of coastal towns: mainly carishes maybe a few whitewashed stone houses .
View attachment 367054

I don’t think carishes automatically indicate nomadic influence. It’s more about practicality easily available materials, the cost and time of building stone structures, and the rapid repopulation of towns during economic revival. People built what was accessible and efficient first, especially when towns were experiencing renewed traffic and growth.

he is correct about berbera it was a seasonal settlement and stone forts were mostly constructed there to store grain and other goods for the trade season, there are european accounts visiting the city and finding it deserted.

 

[Barkhadle1520]

the mamluks had a fleet equal to that of the portugese (which the ottomans inherited) capable of expelling the portugese from india a decade prior to the burning of zeila, ask yourself why they could protect gujarat but the ottomans with the same arsenal could not. it took them almost 50 years to banish the portugese from the redsea

This is such a ridiculous claim, most of their navy was built hastily around 1505–1508 with little experience compared to the veteran portuguese fleet and admirals, just like the rest of the muslim world they relied on Galleys, this is why they lost at the Battle of Diu in 1509 against the heavily armed Portuguese caravels and carracks

What the mamluk fleet looked like

What the portuguese fleet looked like

And also the few canons the Mamluk galleys had on board were also smaller and lighter compared to the Portuguese's ship-mounted bronze bombards

"Every cutting-edge innovation introduced elsewhere was immediately appropriated into Portuguese naval artillery, that includes bronze cannon (Flemish/German), breech-loading swivel-guns, truck carriages (possibly English), and the idea (originally French, c. 1501) of cutting square gunports (portinhola in Portuguese, also already created and tested in the Portuguese ships since 1490) in the hull to allow heavy cannon to be mounted below deck."

 

[Idilinaa]

he is correct about berbera it was a seasonal settlement and stone forts were mostly constructed there to store grain and other goods for the trade season, there are european accounts visiting the city and finding it deserted.

Again, this is why historical context matters.

Berbera was briefly occupied by Majerteen clans and was later wrested from them during a dispute by Habar Awal in the process, many of the stone houses they had built were destroyed.

As a result, Berbera became deserted for a period, essentially turning into disputed territory. Later, Haji Sharmarke seized control and began revitalizing the town by building three new forts.

Those three towers he erected marked the beginning of Berbera's reconstruction and revival.

Luuq had no stone buildings stop this 'maybe' non sense, there are pictures of it and it was like bur hakaba only mud huts

It was mostly carishes, yes but Luuq also had stone merchant houses, royal residences, and was a stone walled trading city with organized markets, mosques, schools, and even elements of urban planning.

According to a newspaper report from 1895, Luuq had a functioning sultanate with its own administration.

The Sultan taxed caravans and trade passing through the area. Under him served a Grand Qadi or Na’ib, and he relied on a diplomatic secretary to manage external trade relations.

Luuq also had its own weaving industry, producing textiles, and a goldsmith/silversmith trade, crafting ornaments and jewelry.

"Rough linen is woven and goldsmiths make handsome ornaments, using various metals also, especially silver"

They used silver coins, as well as international currencies.

''The trade of Lugh is well regulated, and has, as it were all the forms of commerce in civilized countries.

As in Harar or Zayla and other coastal towns, Bedouins/pastoralists came and went, helping maintain the town’s vibrant trade.

Buur Hakaba, by contrast, was a rural agricultural settlement. They lived in mundhuls a different setup entirely.

I dont think you want to quote richard burton on this, read the full book and what he says on the somali nomads, especially at saylac

He makes clear distinctions between settled Somaal and Bedouin Somals throughout the whole book.

Basically, he’s reiterating the same Reer Magaal vs. Reer Guuraa/Reer Miyi distinction that northern Somalis themselves used even I.M. Lewis points this out in his publications.

The same observation was made by Revoil on the Majerteen coast in the mid-19th century.

This ideological contrast between pastoralists and townspeople is also a recurring theme in Somali poetry and literature.

So when Burton notes how Somalis differentiate themselves based on lifestyle, he’s not implying the townspeople in Zeyla weren’t Somali. I’ve seen others , not you necessarily, twist his words that way, so I just want to clarify that point.


You also see these distinctions made in Futuh al-Habasha, which people often misinterpret as some kind of ethnic differentiation when in reality, both the townspeople and the pastoralists come from the same communities. The lines weren’t rigid politically or economically.


It’s similar to how rural and urban populations are viewed in the West like how rural Americans get labeled “rednecks,” or how rural Europeans are seen as “country bumpkins” by urban elites. It’s a social dynamic, not an ethnic one.

No one said Carish = nomad, its the opposite carish is a makeshift home most of the time it was a permanent dwelling compared to the temporary buul/aqal of nomads

You are right.

 

[Barkhadle1520]

Again, this is why historical context matters.

Berbera was briefly occupied by Majerteen clans and was later wrested from them during a dispute by Habar Awal in the process, many of the stone houses they had built were destroyed.
View attachment 367066

As a result, Berbera became deserted for a period, essentially turning into disputed territory. Later, Haji Sharmarke seized control and began revitalizing the town by building three new forts.
View attachment 367067

Those three towers he erected marked the beginning of Berbera's reconstruction and revival.
View attachment 367068




It was mostly carishes, yes but Luuq also had stone merchant houses, royal residences, and a stone-walled trading city with organized markets, mosques, schools, and even elements of urban planning.

View attachment 367075
View attachment 367076

According to a newspaper report from 1895, Luuq had a functioning sultanate with its own administration.

The Sultan taxed caravans and trade passing through the area. Under him served a Grand Qadi or Na’ib, and he relied on a diplomatic secretary to manage external trade relations.

Luuq also had its own weaving industry, producing textiles, and a goldsmith/silversmith trade, crafting ornaments and jewelry.

"Rough linen is woven and goldsmiths make handsome ornaments, using various metals also, especially silver"

They used silver coins, as well as international currencies.

''The trade of Lugh is well regulated, and has, as it were all the forms of commerce in civilized countries.

As in Harar or Zayla, Bedouins/pastoralists came and went, helping maintain the town’s vibrant trade.

Buur Hakaba, by contrast, was a rural agricultural settlement. They lived in mundhuls a different setup entirely.



He makes clear distinctions between settled Somaal and Bedouin Somals throughout the whole book.

Basically, he’s reiterating the same Reer Magaal vs. Reer Guuraa/Reer Miyi distinction that northern Somalis themselves used even I.M. Lewis points this out in his publications.
View attachment 367073

The same observation was made by Revoil on the Majerteen coast in the mid-19th century.
View attachment 367074


This ideological contrast between pastoralists and townspeople is also a recurring theme in Somali poetry and literature.
View attachment 367070
View attachment 367071

So when Burton notes how Somalis differentiate themselves based on lifestyle, he’s not implying the townspeople in Zeyla weren’t Somali. I’ve seen others , not you necessarily, twist his words that way, so I just want to clarify that point.


You also see these distinctions made in Futuh al-Habasha, which people often misinterpret as some kind of ethnic differentiation when in reality, both the townspeople and the pastoralists come from the same communities. The lines weren’t rigid politically or economically.


It’s similar to how rural and urban populations are viewed in the West like how rural Americans get labeled “rednecks,” or how rural Europeans are seen as “country bumpkins” by urban elites. It’s a social dynamic, not an ethnic one.




You are right.

Wallahi Im not reading all that

 

[Idilinaa]

Wallahi Im not reading all that

That’s fine anyone’s free to read or skip as they please. I’m here for the people actually engaging with the topic.

 

[Saleh]

Again, this is why historical context matters.

Berbera was briefly occupied by Majerteen clans and was later wrested from them during a dispute by Habar Awal in the process, many of the stone houses they had built were destroyed.

I will only reply to this because I am outside, but that source is bullcrap, Berbera never belonged to MJs. He is quoting d’abbadie whose entire collection is just footnotes based on hearsay from his guides (who were all MJs)

He also believed abgaals spoke Swahili

he is not a credible source at all and should not be taken as such. He never visited any of the places he spoke of especially Berbera

As for the rest of your claims, I dont deny berbera being littered with stone forts, the earliest account comes from 1801 from a memoir of Ibrahim Punkar describing 5-6 towers with armed guards

This however does not change the fact Berbera was not an all year round settlement, it was abandoned for part of the year and the forts reer axmed and reer yunis constructed were to store goods in the off season instead of hiding them in mountains. The forts of sharmarke were built for a similar purpose

 

[Saleh]

This is such a ridiculous claim, most of their navy was built hastily around 1505–1508 with little experience compared to the veteran portuguese fleet and admirals, just like the rest of the muslim world they relied on Galleys, this is why they lost at the Battle of Diu in 1509 against the heavily armed Portuguese caravels and carracks

What the mamluk fleet looked like

What the portuguese fleet looked like

And also the few canons the Mamluk galleys had on board were also smaller and lighter compared to the Portuguese's ship-mounted bronze bombards

"Every cutting-edge innovation introduced elsewhere was immediately appropriated into Portuguese naval artillery, that includes bronze cannon (Flemish/German), breech-loading swivel-guns, truck carriages (possibly English), and the idea (originally French, c. 1501) of cutting square gunports (portinhola in Portuguese, also already created and tested in the Portuguese ships since 1490) in the hull to allow heavy cannon to be mounted below deck."

They lost the battle of diu due to disorderly structure of the fleets. They were evenly matched, the Portuguese were fighting with the same carracks as the mamluks and just a year prior to this defeat the mamluks had defeated the Portuguese at sea, a gap so vast in technology cannot be forged in one year

 

[Idilinaa]

I will only reply to this because I am outside, but that source is bullcrap, Berbera never belonged to MJs. He is quoting d’abbadie whose entire collection is just footnotes based on hearsay from his guides (who were all MJs)View attachment 367081
View attachment 367082
He also believed abgaals spoke SwahiliView attachment 367083

he is not a credible source at all and should not be taken as such. He never visited any of the places he spoke of especially Berbera
As for the rest of your claims, I dont deny berbera being littered with stone forts, the earliest account comes from 1801 from a memoir of Ibrahim Punkar describing 5-6 towers with armed guardsView attachment 367086
This however does not change the fact Berbera was not an all year round settlement, it was abandoned for part of the year and the forts reer axmed and reer yunis constructed were to store goods in the off season instead of hiding them in mountains. The forts of sharmarke were built for a similar purpose

Where did they get this information from?



Some of the claims he makes seem to check out:


I'm not fully sure about the claim that Majerteen clans ruled Berbera that might be an exaggeration but there definitely seems to have been a dispute that caused destruction, after which Berbera was eventually deserted.


But if there were supposedly 5–6 towers before, where exactly were they?
Because by the time Haji Sharmarke arrived, the city was deserted, and he only erected 3 new forts. So what happened to the previous ones?

 

[Barkhadle1520]

They lost the battle of diu due to disorderly structure of the fleets. They were evenly matched, the Portuguese were fighting with the same carracks as the mamluks and just a year prior to this defeat the mamluks had defeated the Portuguese at sea, a gap so vast in technology cannot be forged in one year

Mamluks never had carracks show me the source and ill believe it

 

[Barkhadle1520]

Where did they get this information from?



Some of the claims he makes seem to check out:
www.twitter.com/PuntlandVault/status/1937181418226151809#m


I'm not fully sure about the claim that Majerteen clans ruled Berbera that might be an exaggeration but there definitely seems to have been a dispute that caused destruction, after which Berbera was eventually deserted.


But if there were supposedly 5–6 towers before, where exactly were they?h
Because by the time Haji Sharmarke arrived, the city was deserted, and he only erected 3 new forts. So what happened to the previous ones?

Why do you take your stuff from twitter fkders ?

 

[Saleh]

Where did they get this information from?



Some of the claims he makes seem to check out:


I'm not fully sure about the claim that Majerteen clans ruled Berbera that might be an exaggeration but there definitely seems to have been a dispute that caused destruction, after which Berbera was eventually deserted.

Some of what he wrote was true of course but majority of it was massive bull. Im not saying having MJ guides discredits everything he says, cruttenden and Burton both also had an MJ guide. The difference between them and d’abbadie is they actually visited the places they spoke of, whereas his stuff was all second hand. I recommend you read his works and see for yourself.

 

[Idilinaa]

Why do you take your stuff from twitter fkders ?

I don’t rely on just Twitter. I pull from a range of sources in that other post i shared info from a newspaper, historical dictionary and academic study and on berbera i included screenshots from materials shared by SLarchives, not just Puntland Vault. I focus on the historical content, ignore the clan bias, and try to piece together a coherent picture of how things unfolded.

Most likely, some Majerteen and Warsangeli merchants settled among the Isaaq clans in Berbera similar to how some of them settled along the Eritrean coast. But internal disputes even among Isaaq sub-clans led to destruction of buildings. By the 1840s, Berbera was partly destroyed and deserted until Haji Sharmarke took control.

 

[Barkhadle1520]

I don’t rely on just Twitter. I pull from a range of sources in that other post i shared info from a newspaper, historical dictionary and academic study and on berbera i included screenshots from materials shared by SLarchives, not just Puntland Vault. I focus on the historical content, ignore the clan bias, and try to piece together a coherent picture of how things unfolded.

Most likely, some Majerteen and Warsangeli merchants settled among the Isaaq clans in Berbera similar to how some of them settled along the Eritrean coast. But internal disputes even among Isaaq sub-clans led to destruction. By the 1840s, Berbera was partly destroyed and deserted until Haji Sharmarke took control.

You sound like a politician trying to explain something they're guilty of mixed with chatgpt

I pull from a range of sources kulaha

 

[Saleh]

But if there were supposedly 5–6 towers before, where exactly were they?
Because by the time Haji Sharmarke arrived, the city was deserted, and he only erected 3 new forts. So what happened to the previous ones?

Berbera was a city in constant anarchy, it was the busiest port in the horn so the tribes inhabiting it (HA) would destroy the forts of one another often to set back competition. Even in one of the sources you quoted, it mentions Sharmarke erected his forts on 3 different occasions because they kept getting destroyed (by locals)

 

[Idilinaa]

Some of what he wrote was true of course but majority of it was massive bull. Im not saying having MJ guides discredits everything he says, cruttenden and Burton both also had an MJ guide. The difference between them and d’abbadie is they actually visited the places they spoke of, whereas his stuff was all second hand. I recommend you read his works and see for yourself.

I think there is some truths to it. The greater challenge now is to put it against other contemporary sources to separate what's facts from gossip and hersay.

You sound like a politician trying to explain something they're guilty of mixed with chatgpt

I pull from a range of sources kulaha

I guess i am guilty because i explain too much . I'll keep things more simple.

 

[Saleh]

You sound like a politician trying to explain something they're guilty of mixed with chatgpt

I pull from a range of sources kulaha

cut her some slack she tries to be fair

 

[Barkhadle1520]

cut her some slack she tries to be fair

nio I get maskax xanuun from these long paragraphs, how do some people find the energy to write this much with the heat