Migratory History of Somalis

[Step a side]

So this video is like 2 days old and I just saw it on my feed, it relies heavily on genetics and these haplogroups nonsense I will never be able to understand

Most interesting part of the video is the Gash Groups, I've never heard about this group around 2700ish but he still attributes the land of punt to Proto Macro Somalis at 1750bc. He didnt talk about oromos much I wonder when they split off from us. But regardless of his mistakes, this is probably the first indepth video on somali history on youtube.
He does say at the end of the video he was limited by the amount of evidence but says he was still able to make something.

We split from Oromo roughly 4300 years ago which would be 2000 BC corresponding to the latter half of the Gash group just before the start of Kom Ombo culture which started 1750 BC according to the guys video.

 

[Step a side]

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bang on

We are either all part of A group culture together with the E-V32 Sudanese or non of us were involved because the E-V32 Nubians, Sudanese, Chad etc haven’t split from us yet during A group culture. My geuss is that the A group culture had various Afro Asiatic associated paternal lineages mostly E-M215 including basal E-V32 lineages parallel to the Somali, Nubian, Sudanese etc including our one of course.

E-V32 was a hunter and gatherer who had a long history on the Nile as well as his ancestors E-V12 and even E-M78 which was found roaming in Morocco 15k years.

AE have Anatolian which we don’t have at all. I assume the bulk of pre dynastic Egyptians with Anatolian genes were on the delta before migrating slowly but surely south and annexing A group culture who would have been 50% Natufian like and 50% AEA

 

[Step a side]

Oh, i thought it was much earlier. Who was the latest split from somalis? I know that oromos also tend to be quite heterogeneous, they heavily vary.

I’m going by the TMRCA. Our ancestor that fathered both of us lived 4000 years ago. The Oromo and Somali tribes would seperate maybe few centuries later around 3000 years ago when they were actual tribes.

E-Z813 YTree

www.yfull.com

 

[Sophisticate]

They arrived 2k years ago from Arabia, probably alongside E-M34 & J-P58 (found in the Gabooye clans).

You are merely speculating. You do not know that. Also E-M34 and J-P58 are absent from the north which is the proposed point of dispersion of T-M70.

 

[Step a side]

A bit of a random question. But when you said north africans had a lot of "ancient north african" dna, responding to the question posed by a person asking whether north africans have a lot of "west eurasian or not".
Do you mean specifically the iberomaursians or the ancestral north africans?

Iberomaursian were a bit like horners, at least specifically how they cluster intermediate between african and eurasians populations respectfully. While the ancestral north africans are a bit odd, they firmly are an african population but are quite genetically distinct from other african populations.

It also heavily varies, turaeg populations have the highest around 50 IBM while coastal maghrebis generally have 30% on average. With much higher Anatolian Neolithic Ancestry ranging from 40-50.

Even Fulani and Tobou have it. The IBM guys brought Anatolian genes with them all the way to West and Central Saharan Africa

 

[Step a side]

You are merely speculating. You do not know that. Also E-M34 and J-P58 are absent from the north which is the proposed point of dispersion of T-M70.

You are right, T has long roots in Africa. There will be at least 3-4 different T lineages just in the Horn alone that won’t have anything to do with each other. That’s how complex T is. It colonised both sides of the Red Sea (Africa and Arabia) very early on in history.,

 

[Step a side]

You are right, T has long roots in Africa. There will be at least 3-4 different T lineages just in the Horn alone that won’t have anything to do with each other. That’s how complex T is. It colonised both sides of the Red Sea (Africa and Arabia) very early on in history.,

Anatolian farmer men were wiped out all over the globe. In Europe where Anatolian is 40%-60% was completely wiped out by stepp R1 tribes. Even Mesolithic hunter and gatherer lineages like I1 and I2 were dominating them

In the Levant and Iran were the Anatolian farmer is roughly 30% has also no G2. They have all been wiped out.

They were sophisticated farmers that spread fast numerically but their men didint know how to fight.

 

[daljirkadahsoon]

It's not Arabian in origin but Mesopotamia, I know T1 spread alongside J1 in the middle east, while digging around I also came across that the Dravidian languages originated in the Zagros mountains and spread into India/Pakistan with variations of L as well, you can find T nowadays in the Eastern side of India and parts of Gurajat, prior to the Aryan expansion into the region, it was most likely associated with the Indus Valley civilization and not traders, I found it funny that those with T in India are also pastoralists.


Haplogroup LT
View attachment 323928
View attachment 323929
(Haplogroup L)

View attachment 323930
Haplogroup T

T seems to have a strong Middle Eastern origin. A lot of the European samples have Jewish names. There are many Arab clans on it as well and non Arab semitic peoples like Chaldeans, Arameans, etc (i.e why Iraq is a hotspot for it).

It has a disproportionate number of middle Eastern nobility some of whom include the Ma'an dynasty of Lebanon, Al Khalifa of Bahrain, Al Sabah of Kuwait, the ruling clan of the UAE from al Utub as well as significant sections of Bani Tamim,

If it is Semitic, the small widespread European presence can be attributed mainly to Jewish diaspora and the other spread of it to the Islamic conquests including the more unexpected areas like Turkey, Armenia and Iran.

T is also found in the most ancient graves in Palestine including the area that was ancient Judea and it is said to have originated the semetic language along with E as it is found amongst the Natufians. There is a study due from al Ula and I wouldn't be surprised if it was Haplogroup T. The Khaybar study I believe was also Haplogroup T.

The results in India are less than 1% of the population and are probably absorbed travellers or something.

The Dravidians you mention are said to be related to the Elamites who were in parts of Mesopotamia and southern Iran. The Elamites are also according to traditional accounts Elam, son of Sam bin Nuh.

As for the clade specific to Somalis, I wouldn't be surprised if the most recent origin was from Himyar some time around the start of the 1st millenium.

Another random idea I had is whether there is a connection between the 'Imliq (Amalekites), an ancient tribe in the Middle East and the Natufians. I saw in some of the Islamic historical sources that they attribute the Pharoahs to the Amalekites and if this was true- it would be that link in terms of shared ancestry between the Levant and Egypt.

 

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[Garaad Awal]

You are merely speculating.

That seems to be you as you can go check the dates of the ethnic Somali J-P58 clade and the Somali clade E-M34. I will not help you and post the links due to your condescending tone

You do not know that. Also E-M34 and J-P58 are absent from the north which is the proposed point of dispersion of T-M70.

E-M34 has been found in Isaaq (an HY) & Raxanweyn. J-P58 can be found in the Gabooye clans of SL and has been found in a Habar Jeclo.Clearly you enjoy pretending to be an expert in things you have very little knowledge on.

 

[Slickster]

bang on

We are either all part of A group culture together with the E-V32 Sudanese or non of us were involved because the E-V32 Nubians, Sudanese, Chad etc haven’t split from us yet during A group culture. My geuss is that the A group culture had various Afro Asiatic associated paternal lineages mostly E-M215 including basal E-V32 lineages parallel to the Somali, Nubian, Sudanese etc including our one of course.

E-V32 was a hunter and gatherer who had a long history on the Nile as well as his ancestors E-V12 and even E-M78 which was found roaming in Morocco 15k years.

AE have Anatolian which we don’t have at all. I assume the bulk of pre dynastic Egyptians with Anatolian genes were on the delta before migrating slowly but surely south and annexing A group culture who would have been 50% Natufian like and 50% AEA

Let's make a separate thread on just the A-Group please. This topic is mightily interesting and deserves its own thread.

 

[Melancholic]

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[Melancholic]

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[NidarNidar]

T seems to have a strong Middle Eastern origin. A lot of the European samples have Jewish names. There are many Arab clans on it as well and non Arab semitic peoples like Chaldeans, Arameans, etc (i.e why Iraq is a hotspot for it).

It has a disproportionate number of middle Eastern nobility some of whom include the Ma'an dynasty of Lebanon, Al Khalifa of Bahrain, Al Sabah of Kuwait, the ruling clan of the UAE from al Utub as well as significant sections of Bani Tamim,

If it is Semitic, the small widespread European presence can be attributed mainly to Jewish diaspora and the other spread of it to the Islamic conquests including the more unexpected areas like Turkey, Armenia and Iran.

T is also found in the most ancient graves in Palestine including the area that was ancient Judea and it is said to have originated the semetic language along with E as it is found amongst the Natufians. There is a study due from al Ula and I wouldn't be surprised if it was Haplogroup T. The Khaybar study I believe was also Haplogroup T.

The results in India are less than 1% of the population and are probably absorbed travellers or something.

The Dravidians you mention are said to be related to the Elamites who were in parts of Mesopotamia and southern Iran. The Elamites are also according to traditional accounts Elam, son of Sam bin Nuh.

As for the clade specific to Somalis, I wouldn't be surprised if the most recent origin was from Himyar some time around the start of the 1st millenium.

Another random idea I had is whether there is a connection between the 'Imliq (Amalekites), an ancient tribe in the Middle East and the Natufians. I saw in some of the Islamic historical sources that they attribute the Pharoahs to the Amalekites and if this was true- it would be that link in terms of shared ancestry between the Levant and Egypt.

It is more appropriate to call it Western Asian in origin, there is no correlation between Elamites and the Indus Valley civilization since the timelines don't add up, I was just commenting on the link, the Somali T is closely related to the Saudi(Asir/Makkah) and Gulf, the Somali T is absent from Yemenis they have (T-Z19971).

You are right, T has long roots in Africa. There will be at least 3-4 different T lineages just in the Horn alone that won’t have anything to do with each other. That’s how complex T is. It colonised both sides of the Red Sea (Africa and Arabia) very early on in history.,

I've also seen it present in North Africa early on, mainly found in mountain-dwelling Berbers.

 

[daljirkadahsoon]

It is more appropriate to call it Western Asian in origin, there is no correlation between Elamites and the Indus Valley civilization since the timelines don't add up, I was just commenting on the link, the Somali T is closely related to the Saudi(Asir/Makkah) and Gulf, the Somali T is absent from Yemenis they have (T-Z19971).

I've also seen it present in North Africa early on, mainly found in mountain-dwelling Berbers.

How does it break down from the clade Y-16897 specifically because this would help me understand how close or distant the Yemeni Y-16897 are of which there are now multiple samples even clusters.

 

[NidarNidar]

How does it break down from the clade Y-16897 specifically because this would help me understand how close or distant the Yemeni Y-16897 are of which there are now multiple samples even clusters.

They both fall under T-Y16897(8400 ybp, TMRCA 6800 ybp), T-Y45591 (6800 ybp, TMRCA 2800 ybp) this is the one that has the Somali and Saudi from Makkah and Asir regions, the clade with the Yemenis is T-Z19971(formed 6800 ybp, TMRCA 6300 ybp) it's all over the place from western and eastern Europe to the middle east and Egypt, I'm guessing it was moved around by Jewish men, especially the younger subclades.

The Sabaean allowed all sorts of religious practices in the region, Judaism flourished in the region, but when it collapsed people dispersed.

Lemba people are most likely Jewish in origin, and even call themselves Sena (this is probably Sana in Yemen) legend says they left Ethiopia and travelled south through Kenya and now reside in South Africa, Malawi, Mozambique and Zimbabwe, their Y Haplogroup is 52% J and the rest seem to be between LT, K, R and F.

The Lemba T carriers exclusively belonged to T1b(T1a2), which is rare and was not sampled in indigenous Jews of either the Near East or North Africa. T1b has been observed in low frequencies in Ashkenazi Jews as well as in a few Levantine populations.

T-Y16897

 

[daljirkadahsoon]

They both fall under T-Y16897(8400 ybp, TMRCA 6800 ybp), T-Y45591 (6800 ybp, TMRCA 2800 ybp) this is the one that has the Somali and Saudi from Makkah and Asir regions, the clade with the Yemenis is T-Z19971(formed 6800 ybp, TMRCA 6300 ybp) it's all over the place from western and eastern Europe to the middle east and Egypt, I'm guessing it was moved around by Jewish men, especially the younger subclades.

The Sabaean allowed all sorts of religious practices in the region, Judaism flourished in the region, but when it collapsed people dispersed.

Lemba people are most likely Jewish in origin, and even call themselves Sena (this is probably Sana in Yemen) legend says they left Ethiopia and travelled south through Kenya and now reside in South Africa, Malawi, Mozambique and Zimbabwe, their Y Haplogroup is 52% J and the rest seem to be between LT, K, R and F.

The Lemba T carriers exclusively belonged to T1b(T1a2), which is rare and was not sampled in indigenous Jews of either the Near East or North Africa. T1b has been observed in low frequencies in Ashkenazi Jews as well as in a few Levantine populations.

T-Y16897

Okay I see

I have heard there is Haplogroup T amongst the Abdellab of Sudan and the Asaworta of Eritrea but both of em are in the other section of T along with the clans in the Middle East I don't remember the exact sub-clade right now.

The Abdellab seem to have it as their main haplogroup whereas with the Asaworta they are a confederation and also have J, E and other ones.

The ones that fall immediately with T-Y45591- the Makkan sample is apparently a Qurayshi and there are a few other matches from his clan as well.

The mystery of T-Y16897 just seems to increase!

Is it possible there was more diversity of T with these immigrants and only this particular clade multiplied?

 

[NidarNidar]

Okay I see

I have heard there is Haplogroup T amongst the Abdellab of Sudan and the Asaworta of Eritrea but both of em are in the other section of T along with the clans in the Middle East I don't remember the exact sub-clade right now.

The Abdellab seem to have it as their main haplogroup whereas with the Asaworta they are a confederation and also have J, E and other ones.

The ones that fall immediately with T-Y45591- the Makkan sample is apparently a Qurayshi and there are a few other matches from his clan as well.

The mystery of T-Y16897 just seems to increase!

Is it possible there was more diversity of T with these immigrants and only this particular clade multiplied?

The main Somali one is T-BY181210, it seems Dir were a group of related men that got to the north coast of Somali around 1st millennium BC, I remember T-Y223124 that was found in southern Somalia related to Saudi and Yemeni from Hadramaut.

I'm waiting on my BIG Y test so will see where my clade falls under, the more of us that get tested, the better the picture becomes.