Aren’t Banadir Sheekhaal different from the Sheekhaal spread over Somaliweyn and Oromia? I think it was @anonimo in one thread he was mentioning the walanweyn Sheekhaal are cadcads and don’t have any relations to the Sheekhaal who claim to descend from Aw Abadir
Is Xawaash seasoning somali originally or is it Yemeni?
- Thread starter abayoqurux
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There are different Asharaaf. The ones in the Banaadir are Cadcads and, if memory serves me right, seem to have mixed with a now extinct Somaloid group in order to assimilate into Somali society as their "dialect" seems a different but closely related language to Af-Maxaa like Tunni.
Hamzza
VIP
What do you mean by 'Walanweyn Sheekhaal? There are no Sheekhaals in Wanlawayn(Daafeed) akhi, only Gaaljecel and Shanta Caleemood live in there.
Makes sense.The Aw Abadir Sheekhaal are a bunch of Maghrebi descended individuals who are now autosomally completely Somali.I hope they take yfull deep testing because I’m not entirely sure they all descend from one NW African ancestor as multiple Sheikhs from Tunisia & Al Maghrib (Morocco and Western Algeria) were mentioned in the Futuh.
Hamzza
VIP
Ashraaf are not Sheekhaal walaal
Banaadir Sheekhaal also claim descent from Sheikh Abaadir.
Are those the Cadcad ones?
Yes, Gendershe & Jaziira Sheekhaal. They're gibil cad.
Doesn’t matter if they claim to be kinsmen with actual Sheekhaal, they have nothing to do with them.
I wouldn't be so sure. They may very well be linked. Cadcads even turnup with native Somali Y-DNA. Deftextra over at Anthrogenica is E-Z813 like us and says that it's not uncommon to see them pop-up with such lineages. The oral traditions of the Banaadir usually tend to be that these Cadcad tribes integrated into the local Somali community as the descendants of ajanabi settlers who were received by local Somali/Somaloid groups like the Hawiye, Ajuraan and Tunni and, by the looks of it based on mtDNA, married their women as according to Deft CadCad mtDNA mirrors ethnic Somali mtDNA but, clearly, some ethnic Somali chaps integrated into there. It's not far fetched for some Sheekhaal from the rest of Somaliweyn to have settled among them and have their Y-DNA pop-up though I doubt it.
The Gendershe carry G and probably other haplogroups belonging to cadcads and local southern lineages
The Sheekhaal carry high frequency of E-M81 which is most likely a founder effect.I subscribe to the hypothesis that the Sheekhaal title is just an occupational title.
I honestly do too.
Never in a million years would I think this thread would lead up to ppl talking about origins of my qabiil, rarely see it talked about anyways. I agree with you about the occupational title I think Sheekhaals are just a bunch of random somalis who united under love for the religion or something
Are you Sheekhaal Gendershe or from another sub?
By 'attacking' and 'emotional' I was referring to the fact that my previous post to the one above was simply a statement confirming that the two Kirk sources talk about the same thing and are not two different events. I added 'to each his own' to demonstrate that it is pointless to continue discussing it and gave you a thumbs up assuming the discussion had come to an end. Your reply went beyond that when you started to bang on about me knocking Somalis down and gassing Arabs. That was out of the blue considering I already made it plain in our previous exchanges that my aim was to rile you up your nationalist sentiments when ramming my points home after you became disrespectful. What connection did our partially fiery DM exchange have to do with that post?What? I did not attack you. I simply pointed out that your main point is completely moot and that you kept glossing over that fact like 3 times in a row at least which is true. Did I call you names or insult you in some way? It's text, saaxiib. You don't know what my voice sounded like or my face looked like. Don't ascribe anything more than what you plainly see.
Saaxiib, the only one getting emotional is the person who wrote a small essay in response to two paragraphs, clearly. You do gas up Arabs and definitely did a lot in our DMs and yus Somalis in comparison, sometimes quite insultingly, even though the two groups have the same customs in these respects and then you ignore this fact whenever it is presented to you because I guess it's inconvenient for your world-view. It's plain to see and is distasteful and frankly weird. Simple as. That's all I was saying. No anger toward you. If you see no issue with your strange self-hatred vibes then that is up to you. It was not meant as an insult but simply stating what I see.
I said more than once that I am willing to accept you are correct here. But again, how does it refute the main argument? The whole reason we went down the Kirk rabbit-hole is because you claimed ethnic Somalis did not serve as sailors in Koonfur unlike in the North and that point is clearly disproven by a source from a decade earlier. Does it even matter? It is truly semantics to keep obsessing over this point when your main argument is dead in the water.
This just seems like reworking your argument so that you're not wrong and is nonsensical. "Oh, okay. Yeah, Somalis were involved in the sailing clear but they were not mainstream Somali clans." just arguing for arguing's sake, akhi. And it's tiring. And again, that source does not say they are Cadcads but only that they claim Arab origins (genealogical roots). If you read anything on other Gibil Madow groups, or are personally familiar with them, this is common. Many will actually claim Arab genealogical roots the exact same way your mainstream tribe or mine will but it is still maintained and clear that they are Gibil-Madow and not at all Cadcad. It has always been known that the Reer Maanyo are Gibil-Madow and not Cadcad and reer Banaadir took these divisions very seriously to the point of not eating around each other based on the divide as I've shown before in our DMs. Khalas with this tangent, saaxiib.
I said comparable, not equal and I proved my point in the thread and the parties in that thread, at least Hamzza, ended up agreeing. But again, please go into the thread and try to debunk whatever you want and PLEASE, I'm begging you, prove your theories that sailing suddenly started around the mid 1800s and didn't really exist among Somalis nor was a widespread practice before that. Please. Or continue to insult me and attack my character like that proves your nonsense. Doesn't affect me.
I never argued this, walaal. I actually got the impression that the two groups were nearly equal with Cadcads being slightly more numerous and Somalis being the source of the ruling tribe which certainly seems the case in those Italian censes in contrast to Xamar and Baraawe where the Gibil-Madows and Tunnis were much more numerous.
I know of this picture. It's extremely recent and is of two random fishermen in Koonfur that people have just attributed as "Reer Maanyo". People down south refer to a lot of folks who practice fishing in the south, now often Bantus as they've slowly come to the cities more and more, as "Reer Maanyo" as the name is basically synonymous with fishing at this point. This is, as far as I know, different from the actual proper, historical reer Banaadir tribe who look like this:
That is a top elder and political representative of theirs named Haji Kamal Maki Aweys. Every historical image I've seen of these guys just looks Somali, akhi. And there's no mention of Bantus in their ranks historically. Practically all the Bantus in Xamar a century ago were women being house servants or weavers, as far as I remember. No one was going to allow them into an actual tribe and give them proper rights. Even the Italians... do you really think they'd have seen that a significant tribe of Marko was partly Bantu or Cadcad and then list them the exact same way they do other Gibil-Madow Somali tribes and not point out the difference in the at least paragraph long description of the tribe? You know full well they would have made the distinction. They didn't because there wasn't one.
Also, this is all that source says:
Anonimo, I'm sure you can read Arabic as a Somali who was obviously raised Muslim but not understand it, assume? Cos it's strange that you accepted this as a source that they're part Bantu and Cadcad.
Nah, mostly me and Anonimo settling an old score like a couple of habaro who've been col for quite some time now.
Secondly, you always bring up comparisons with Arabs, like I told you in the Dms, I don't care for them so allow the comparisons because I have rarely referenced them in a comparative manner in these recent exchanges.
As for ethnic Somali sailors in the South, I have in this thread, and in the DM accepted that there are ethnic Southern Somalis sailors in the Reer Maanyo heterogenous confederacy. The only thing I added was that these Somalis are not representative of Southern Somali culture because mainstream Southern clans considered those lived off the sea as being outside the norms of respectable Somali society. You are very well familiar with the Jaaji ostracisation.
As for the Reer Maanyo, I never stated that they came under the Gibil Cad categorisation. I stated that only certain clans within them belong to mainstream Somali Qabils, the rest have non-Somali origins. This is something that is confirmed in your own blog reference. Unlike the draudulent Somali connections to the Prophet SAWS, the Ba Mukhtar and Shawesh Bin Ali etc. are not claiming some fanciful ancestry but obscure Arabian lineages. What Arab claiming Somali uses the Hadhrami 'Ba' or has a name like Shawesh? Why should we doubt their own lineage when Reer Maanyo clans who are Somali in origin clearly identify with their roots such as the Garre Reer Cumar and Surre Reer Caafi etc. whilst they do not? Moreover, just because someone is in the Gibil Madoow confederacy does not necessarily mean they descend from Somali Qabils. Your own blog source demonstrates how the Shaanshi and Qalinshube in Dhabarweyne do not hail from Somali Qabil lineages. Similarly, the Xatimi in the Iskashato are also not of Somali Qabil lineages.
As for your reference to @Hamzza exchange with me, I do read Arabic and I know there was no implicit mention of Bantu. I thought وغير ذلك could possibly be a reference to bantus in the confederacy as hypothesised by Hamza. Moreover, the Arab origin of the Ba Mukhtar and Shawesh bin Ali etc. does not need to be spelled out as he clearly differentiates between them and the Qabils of Somali origin in his opening sentence. My Arabic may not be up to your standard but other Arabic speakers on this site can confirm the above.
Lastly, like I stated before, you do your thing as you are clearly emotionally invested in this subject, I ain't. If I was, I would have ventured into your Dhow thread and pointed out your misuse of the Kirk source there. Even in this thread, it is you who came in all guns blazing despite the fact I was merely stating the obvious that Xawash is a Yemeni influence on our cuisine. Let us live and let live.
It was the Jazeera and Marka Gendershe ones I was referring to.
Some Gendershe I have seen have an Cadcad like appearance.
The Sheekhaals have a heterogenous make-up, the Aw Qutub have Harari ancestry, and as others have pointed out to you, their y-dna is also diverse.
First time I have seen you get relatively passionate in a Qabil discussion, you married to a Sheekhaal walaal, or are you one yourself?
My actual subclan is loobage but alot of them men in my abtiris married with alot of gendershe women
The only one who's been truly insulting throughout this exchange is you. All I've done is flatly describe your behavior while you keep accusing me of lying, called me a snake at one point and all this other insulting stuff when, ironically, you're someone who admitted to lying to me and also trying to rile me up because I momentarily lost my cool and pretty much immediately apologized for it. Enough of this tangent, walaal. It's a waste of time and I have a life and don't want to keep going back and forth on this.
I do not recall you saying you don't care for them. All I recall is you gassing them up and describing Somalis as essentially savages and the like. All while consistently ignoring that, culturally speaking, Arabians are incredibly similar to Somalis in almost every way and were mostly better off due to their greater proximity to the Fertile Crescent. Incredibly odd stuff for an ethnic Somali to do but to each their own.
This comes off as shifting goal-posts, walaal. Your original position was that reer Koonfur Somalis were not at all involved in sailing and now it's that they were but it was "low-caste" type ones and not the mainstream tribes unlike in the north. We don't disagree on that and I'm glad you concede it, though.
Enough of this tangent, walaal. I mean no offense, but it comes off as though you are pulling mental gymnastics with the Reer Maanyo to not concede that your original claim that Cadcads dominated the sailing off of Koonfur is baseless. No one calls a group that is actually mixed (part Somali, Cadcad and Bantu) "Gibil-Madow". Gibil-Madow means Gibil-Madow regardless of genealogical root claims. Frankly, some of these genealogies may very well have been originally true but it is clear that these groups more heavily assimilated into Somali society and became Gibil-Madow in appearance and status elsewise they would never be classified as such. And there are small qabiils throughout Somaliweyn who claim obscure Arabian origins unlike the dominant tribes and even in their case it may have been true once upon a time yet it's clear they've heavily assimilated into Somali society and all you're liable to find is a Y-DNA that's off. The Gibil-Madow label always historically meant that they were ancestrally and physically of the core of ethnic Somali groups of the Banaadir who are distinct from the Cadcads:
Even the Italians plainly state this, count the Reer Maanyo as such and do not make any special distinction between them and other Gibil-Madows. The two groups of Madow & Cad were also extremely strict about not mixing or intermingling, unlike more recently where even non-Banaadir Somalis marry Cadcads regularly as a relative of mine just did. They wouldn't eat together, walaal, let alone intermarry. There's a lot of nonsense in this thread and others about Gibil-Madow qabiils being inherently "mixed" (part CadCad and part Madow) when they historically were most certainly not. I've seen the same nonsense being claimed on this site regarding qabiilo like the Dhabarweyne and Bandawow when even Cadcads themselves plainly called them Gibil-Madow and pointed out stuff like this:
Straight from the horse's mouth. Gibil-Madow meant Gibil-Madow and other GMs have similar genealogical claims. When the Reer Maanyo were big in Marko they are flatly described as GM by the Italians. Let's not waste anymore time on this. There's a reason those ships off Mauritius were not being called "Somalo-Arab" or "Somalo-Bantu" Dhows. I'm not going to keep going back and forth and this anymore, akhi.
Yes, I own that I came at you for your usual fawning over Arabs while then saying later on, when pressed on it, that you don't care about them. I don't like people yussing their own ethnic group for no good reason and romanticizing another at their expense to an excessive degree and I will call it out. Simple as. And again, you are always welcome to come into the thread and debunk whatever you think you can debunk. So far all you keep going on about is that Kirk quote which I was always willing to concede may be mixed up, and mental gymnastics around the Reer Maanyo.
In reality all your original beliefs shared with me go unsubstantiated. That seafaring just popped up with Somalis around the middle of the 1800s, that Isaaqs never sailed and it was just Warsangelis and Majeerteens, that seafaring wasn't widespread and commonly known across the Somali coast, that Cadcads or ajanabis were the ones solely handling all the sailing off Koonfur and more. You claimed every single of one of these things to me and you and I both know each and everyone of those claims is baseless if you go through the thread and I urge you to prove otherwise instead of trying to take jabs at me about how I'm "emotional" about the subject and you're not. Live and let live, though, truly. I pray we're done here cos I am tired of all this.
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I remember speaking to a reer Banaadir guy who told me this:
Most of what I've seen of the reer Gendershe and Jaziira varies from plainly looking Somali to a few looking somewhat mixed:
Link
If I recall correctly, the Italians didn't say whether they were classified as Gibil-Madow or Gibil-Cad back when they conducted their censes.
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